[ozwarrior]

The current Hornby high speed trains like HST, 91, Pendolino and Eurostar tend to have a srp of around GBP100.00. If they were upgraded to high spec how much do you think they should retail for?
I'll go for GBP150.00! If that were the case would you pay the price?
I would.

 

[pedromorgan]

they shgould be priced at around the £120 mark.

the trouble is they are low spec models already and as such i think they are overpriced.
The HST is junk buy todays standards. call the loco £25. the coaches at £15 each. It should be about £60 the set.

91 Would be nice if it had a decent pantograph (origionally it had a better one than the piece of crap its fitted with now, i used to have one. but i believe they had to replace it because it contained small parts and they couldnt sell it as a toy.) but apart from that and the mechanism the shells are actually pretty good. you can get a loco with a good central motor driving through both bogies for about £45 so lets call this loco £35 worth (even thin i think that is generous). the coaches are quite nice so lets say £17.50 each. so for the set i think its worth about £85/90.

the pendolino and eurostar both have issues and at the moment i dont concider them anything more than toy trains. the eurostar is a 15 year old model that has never been taken seriously because of its coaches and the pendolino is a brand new model that is already 10 years old. (i am putting the pendolino into my 'Hornby's missed opportunities' box). i think they are worth about £60 for the eurostar and about £70 for the pendolino.

Peter

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE the trouble is they are low spec models already and as such i think they are overpriced.
The HST is junk buy todays standards. call the loco £25. the coaches at £15 each. It should be about £60 the set.

You got that right on the button Peter. Theres a picture of the pantograph in the link below compared with what it could have been.

I have the GNER225 and compared it with the European equivelant available at the same time, the Trix ICE3. They were at opposite ends of the spectrum. The Trix ICE3 was bought new for 465Euros, so about 250 quid for five coach set. By my calculations if you were to upgrade the GNER225 it would end up costing the same, e.g. interior lighting in all coaches, digital sound, front and rear directional lighting and detail.

Unfortunately Hornby will only make things which will retail at a maximum of 100 quid. This limits the product in way that determines its final quality. The Pendelino I bought and regretted. When my next shipment of Lenz decoders arrives I will change the decoder and see if this improves it. I fear the crappy motor will still let it down though. It is a vast improvement on the 225 though.

I would gladly pay 200-250 quid for a GNER 225 which did the same as the Trix ICE3, but as it stands I am left with about nine coaches which go with a loco than can do 4 on the level

This issue is a sore spot with me as I love high speed trains and the one I want the most, a decent 225, is not going to happen, unless Bachmann fancy giving it a go?

You got that right about the missed opportunities! These models are dinosaurs which should be shot and put out of their misery.

 

[pedromorgan]

yes that is the newer style of pantograph on the 225.
The earlier ones had something that was alot better (but still not good) and did actually work (and could collect current from the overhead wires)

but the thing about the 225 is that apart from the panto the shells are actually fine. they are accurate and because the real things have not been altered (externally anyway) all they really need is a decent chassis. the coaches again are not perfect but quite respectable.

i think the 225 is a model that could be upgraded fairly easily into something very nice. but at the moment is a very poor model.

Peter

P.S. i look forward to seeing how you get on with the new decoder. i told a friend about your problem and it took him about 10 minutes to stop laughing.
It reminded me of the time i bought a bachmann (not spectrum) F unit for £35!!! how dumb was i to spend £35 on that piece of jumk!! i still have it. one day i might strip off the paint to see if there is actually any detail under there!!

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE i think the 225 is a model that could be upgraded fairly easily into something very nice. but at the moment is a very poor model.

I saw an example the other day of one. Extra detailing parts had been added on and it had been weathered. It looked really good. I have yet to find out where the detailing parts came from but I may just rumage around in other model boxes to see what I have going spare to add on. My big problem is the weak motor. I have a lot of extra lead in there and it hasn't made much difference at all. I need a more powerful motor. At this point I am reluctant to waste a decoder on it and was hoping that some one would release a newer version with a better motor then I could modify this one and run them both as a consist.

Will hopefully get my decoders in the next month or two. I am waiting on some F-Zug coaches and they will come with that. Will report back then.

 

[Jennings]

It has been covered in Model Rail upgrading Hornbys 225 (October 2002 for the 91, And April 2005 for the coaches).

The 91 to be honest is reasonable - Just needs a better motor and Pantograph but its the coaches that need updating as these are what are wrong in several areas. Come on Hornby can we have some decent GNER Mk4 'Mallards' done with the correctly blanked off windows?

 

[pedromorgan]

the the windows need blanking off for the mallard varient as well as the radome fitting to the DVT and the skirt needs altering (the ones on the hornby model are half the height of the real thing).

But these are very minor details and lets face it they looked much better with blue doors anyway!
I would be very happy if it just had a decent mech.

Peter

 

[dwilson9]

According to the current issue of Model Rail, the next one will carry an interview with Mr Koehler of Hornby and discuss the possibility of short run limited edition models (presumably at a price higher that the £100 mark). Seems to me that super detailed models of the HST, Blue Pullman, APT, IC225 etc would fit the bill nicely? Personally I'd pay £300 for a decent model of one (or all!) of these - think of the cost of e.g. an A4 or A3 with a rake of Pullmans or Gresleys - about the same.

 

[pedromorgan]

i dont think the models you mention actually would fit the bill.

The HST has carried countless liveries and many people would buy more than 1 if it was reasinably priced. and that more or less rules it out of the "premium model" catagory.

the blue pullman, i would love one and would even settle for a bunch of the old mouldings but whenever i bring this up i get accused of being a "vocal minority" and Mr Kohler said "when hell freezes over".

The APT would require huge developement costs for them and io still think we would end up with a poor model. again i would be very happy with a bag of the old mouldings and kit bash my own.
and if they sold the IC225 for £300 people would just cary on detailing the cheap one.

I hate it when they start talking about premium models. that always means they are going to spend shed loads of money and resources producing something that i wont be able to afford anyway.

i think for evry premium model we loose 2 offordable ones.

Peter

 

[Ravenser]

There were very strong rumours from multiple good sources last year that Hornby were doing a totally new HST . The account I heard included the startling suggestion this would include a completely new set of Mk3 coaches. - this from a source who was telling me about a Hornby 56 some 6 months before it was announced.

Instead we got a reissue of the Lima power cars. It seems someone at high level must have cancelled the project. I was told 2007 was going to be a diesel year with 3 major new releases . Perhaps the third was going to be an EMU - before word leaked, Bachmann announced the 4-CEP and Hornby dropped their project. Instead 2007 became the year of wall to wall LMS 4-6-0s

We can I think forget the APT - the real thing never went into regular service. We won't get a Paget 2-6-2 or the Great Bear either as RTR

The underlying problem here is British attitudes to electrics , especially overhead electrics. Perfectly mainstream modelling subjects in every Continental country - but in the UK they are viewed as exotic difficult subjects that nobody will buy - about the same , as a commercial prospect , as a Caley 4-2-2 only less glamourous.

Bachmann have never produced a single model of an electric. The promised 4-CEP is their first toe in the water , and they can do about half of it by recycling part of their Mk1 coach range

Maybe Hornby caught a dreadful cold when they tooled up the 86, 90, 91, and 92 in the 80s and early 90s. Certainly the 92 , which had a duplicate from Lima has always sold poorly. The Networkervis a poor seller too

Added to which Hornby's new spec diesel models are either co-cos or an A1A - A1A. They don't seem to have a centre motor Bo-Bo mechanism in their armoury. All the models we are discussing are electric and/or require a 4 axle drive....

If we can't get a decent 86 (100 locos, 40+ years of nationwide service) , the chances of a new 91 , with less than a third of the locos , limited to one route, are vanishingly small. We don't have an 87 at all , haven't had one for years.....

Heljan or Vi-Trains are the only hope here, and if Vi-Trains next offering's a 47 , you can forget Vi-Trains

 

[Jennings]

RTR class 89 then perhaps as one of the 'short run limitied editions' if that turns out to be true?

... Ok, i know i'm dreaming but it would be stunning either way if its upto current detail standards.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (dwilson9 @ 30 May 2007, 22:00) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>According to the current issue of Model Rail, the next one will carry an interview with Mr Koehler of Hornby and discuss the possibility of short run limited edition models (presumably at a price higher that the £100 mark). Seems to me that super detailed models of the HST, Blue Pullman, APT, IC225 etc would fit the bill nicely? Personally I'd pay £300 for a decent model of one (or all!) of these - think of the cost of e.g. an A4 or A3 with a rake of Pullmans or Gresleys - about the same.
I specifically asked him about this and his view was that they aim to keep proces as close to the 100 quid mark as possible. While I'd love to see and would buy the products described above, I'm not hopeful that these will appear.

 

[ozwarrior]

I suppose the UK market isn't up for it but I'd like to see perhaps a choice offered like DCC ready/equipped on the same model.

Hornby do have a bo-bo central mech in their armoury, and it's used in high speed trains - Lima Thalys and Jouef TGV.
Take a look!
http://www.hornbyinternational.com/dwnlds/...ets/SS00009.pdf
Well I can dream!

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 31 May 2007, 01:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hornby do have a bo-bo central mech in their armoury, and it's used in high speed trains - Lima Thalys and Jouef TGV.

Agreed - but every one I've had suffered from gear stripping problems !

 

[Ravenser]

Maybe this is why they pulled the plug on the new HST?? "Whoops - the drive train's dodgy. Forget that one then"

Or perhaps they've simply got too much on their plate and reined back some of the UK projects

 

[DriverSam]

I'm really pleased others have voiced their opinions on these modern express trains - Eurostar, Pendolino, HST, and 225 as well as AC electric loco's. It's such a shame that all these 'flagship' trains get treated as train-set fodder.

I live near Bristol and want to model my local area. This means a representation of freight locos - EWS, Freightliner and GBRF class 66 and Yeoman/Hanson/Mendip class 59.
A local/cross country service - class 150, 158, 159 and Virgin Voyager.
And a premium express - First Great Western HST.
Unfortuately when it comes to the HST, the current model offering sucks and looks like a toy in comparison to the other models. (The class 59 is also poor. Also it's a shame nobody has done the Yeoman JHA wagons)
The same can be repeated for any region on our network. The flagship express is always a poor model - a toy in fact.

Can the model manufactures not get together in the same way Ford, Seat and Volswagen did in producing the Galaxy/Alhambra/Sharon and make nicely detailed express trains with correct coaches. Or maybe the train operators themselves could commision hi-spec models, it would be a great advert for them. If I were First Great western I would be ashamed of the Hornby HST wearing my colours.

The locos could be sold as a Twin Pack as Lima did with the HST or even all vehicles sold separately. By all means keep the basic versions on the shelves for kids because that's all they are fit for. At least then people could choose to add detail to a basic model or just get a really good one straught from the box.

For God's sake, some of these trains have been around for years and the HST is found over most of the network. The Eurostar is a World famous train so equally deserves a whole lot better than the current toy.

Will we have to wait for these trains to go out of service before a decent model finally arrives. The HST is nearly there!

 

[goedel]

QUOTE (DriverSam @ 1 Jun 2007, 20:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>For God's sake, some of these trains have been around for years and the HST is found over most of the network. The Eurostar is a World famous train so equally deserves a whole lot better than the current toy.

Will we have to wait for these trains to go out of service before a decent model finally arrives. The HST is nearly there!
Absolutely!! There have been and are so many liveries they could flog the mouldings for years and still not produce everthing from original flying banana to the current! It's not even got all the curves and bumbs of the average steam engine...all UK scene manufacturers should be ashamed of this wilful ignorance of what not only modellers want but the general public want to see running at exhibitions.

Equallly frustrating are the apologists on this forum bending over backwards to excuse Saint Hornby, overworked and harassed by us obviously crazy modellers demanding such an obscure thing as a slightly realistic HST, only the most iconic UK in the train of recent times and not just for modellers...which probably only say a tiny 90% of the population have ever travelled on...

Saint Hornby's profits were very healthy this year as Doug has posted. Hardly a company that is flustered and distracted in the face of such unreasonable demands as an even slightly accurate model, and of course the even more ridiculous demand that the motor can actually pull a full length train at high speed (hence the name HST, manufacturers if you're listening)...Saint Hornby should stand and up and say, "We like the British goverment do not negotiate with terrorists and their agenda of spreading hate and decent models."

At least I'm not yet so derranged that I want the the model to be DCC sound capable, or even DCC ready!

Right, back to the asylum with my wicked demands...

Goedel

 

[DriverSam]

QUOTE (goedel @ 1 Jun 2007, 23:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Absolutely!! There have been and are so many liveries they could flog the mouldings for years and still not produce everthing from original flying banana to the current! It's not even got all the curves and bumbs of the average steam engine...all UK scene manufacturers should be ashamed of this wilful ignorance of what not only modellers want but the general public want to see running at exhibitions.

Equallly frustrating are the apologists on this forum bending over backwards to excuse Saint Hornby, overworked and harassed by us obviously crazy modellers demanding such an obscure thing as a slightly realistic HST, only the most iconic UK in the train of recent times and not just for modellers...which probably only say a tiny 90% of the population have ever travelled on...

Saint Hornby's profits were very healthy this year as Doug has posted. Hardly a company that is flustered and distracted in the face of such unreasonable demands as an even slightly accurate model, and of course the even more ridiculous demand that the motor can actually pull a full length train at high speed (hence the name HST, manufacturers if you're listening)...Saint Hornby should stand and up and say, "We like the British goverment do not negotiate with terrorists and their agenda of spreading hate and decent models."

At least I'm not yet so derranged that I want the the model to be DCC sound capable, or even DCC ready!

Right, back to the asylum with my wicked demands...

Goedel

 

[DriverSam]

Sorry not sure what happened there, I tried to add a reply but instead just requoted everthing you said without making a comment myself! Screen went odd then some warning about a flood(?) and needing to wait 20 seconds to reply???!!!

Anyway, as I was going to say; its good to see somebody add their views without saying 'manufacturer bashing' or 'you're not a proper modeller if you can't use a craft knife'!
Life's just too short to kit bash and slice up new models just because they're not up to scratch in the first place.
Often when people critisise models, they are told by others that they 'just want everthing on a plate' and are 'not prepared to use modelling skills in their hobby'. -And, so what? If I wanted to buy a toy I would go to the Early Learning Centre or Toys 'R' Us. The fact is I am paying for a scale model , not a toy therefor I do not expect to have to correct mistakes on models by using scalpels and airbrushes. The technology is available to the manufacturers through computer aided design and research through the plethora of good reference pictures on the internet. If I can look at the internet to check for correct liveries and detail etc, then the manufacturers can do the same. With all this at their fingertips there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for any manufacturer to produce inaccurate models with incorrect liveries and completely ficticious detail. It is 2007 not 1967! Things have moved on!
And before somebody starts whining about prices and bits of detail falling off, you know what to do. Go and buy a cheaper more basic model! There are hundreds of older Lima and Hornby models on ebay if you can't find them in the shops.
I'm not too sure what the problem is about price either because by the time you have purchased a basic model such as the Hornby HST, added detail, and maybe a professional respray, you could have saved a lot of wasted time and spent just as much money if a super detailed one was available anyway. Just look at all those Lima models that used to get shown in Model Rail magazine a few years ago. They were sliced to bits with etched brass detail added all over the body, flush glazing added, the couplings cut off and crappy pipes added that easily break off and then a complete respray. A lot of time and money and a lot of work for one loco. Imagine a whole fleet and coaching stock and wagons treated to this aswell! Like I said, life's too short and this amount of correction is totally unecessary in this day and age.

A lot of passenger trains today are fixed formation multiple units from you're local stopper to the cross country and prestige express. Many are also overhead electric. How long are the manufacturers going to keep thinking that everything is still steam and diesel hauled and stuck in some sort of 'Golden Age'.
It is the 21st century and I think our modern flagship express trains deserve much more recognition and much better than some crude chunky toy with mis-matched or missing carriages.
How nice it would be to see a detailed Eurostar, GNER 225, HST etc. Maybe most of us probably wouldn't have the space for a full formation but the choice would be nice particularly for display.
These are iconic revolutionary trains. It's a shame their status is reflected in rather poorly portrayed, incomplete toys and not good accurate models.
Let's see more DMU's, EMU's and high speed trains please. (Proper models, not toys.) They are the bread and butter of the current rail scene. I can't remember the last loco hauled train I saw that was on a normal service and wasn't a chartered special.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE I'm not too sure what the problem is about price either because by the time you have purchased a basic model such as the Hornby HST, added detail, and maybe a professional respray, you could have saved a lot of wasted time and spent just as much money if a super detailed one was available anyway. Just look at all those Lima models that used to get shown in Model Rail magazine a few years ago. They were sliced to bits with etched brass detail added all over the body, flush glazing added, the couplings cut off and crappy pipes added that easily break off and then a complete respray. A lot of time and money and a lot of work for one loco. Imagine a whole fleet and coaching stock and wagons treated to this aswell! Like I said, life's too short and this amount of correction is totally unecessary in this day and age.

My sentiments exactly. When I pay for a ready to run model I expect it to be just that. If I wanted to f**k around with new parts I'd buy a kit. I have little enough time as it is without having to sort out second rate models because the manufacturer couldn't get their s**t together.