Historical Hakenkreutz on DRG 03.10

QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 6 May 2007, 08:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Know the feeling - you always spot the tiny thing out of place after taking the photos.

BTW - where did you get the emblems from ?

I have a Liliput 05, the Olympic version with the Swasticas (spelling) on the smokebox but dare'nt post a pic of it in case it upsets anyone.

I hope I do not affend
I have found that arms fairs are a good source for the side emblems.
These are the small party pins which were worn on civillian clothing.
I have used them on a number of D.R.G loco's.such as this Rivarossi E19.



Nozomi,
Fine photo's of some stunning models

All the best.

David

QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 6 May 2007, 07:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Know the feeling - you always spot the tiny thing out of place after taking the photos.

BTW - where did you get the emblems from ?

I have a Liliput 05, the Olympic version with the Swasticas (spelling) on the smokebox but dare'nt post a pic of it in case it upsets anyone.

I also have an example of the Liliput 05 Olympic version,Brian.

The Liliput 05 1936 Oylimpic version loco originally came with a hakenkreutz [swastika] included and the instructions,in German,said roughly translated "dear model fan if you wish to make the model historically correct the hakenkreutz transfers are included". I agree.After all it is a hobby thing,not the loco's fault.
It is rare to find the transfers included.The rings are there and I made my own smokebox flag.
I saw one version on eBay complete with all transfers from a seller in Sweden.
As you know the emblem is illegal in Gemany.Was this model [Austrian made year available?] available pre the illegarity thing?
I have a friend in Berlin who works for Berlin S Bahn who models British SR railways!
I sent his some SR coaches and as a reward he was able to get me the etched eagles and front emblem from a chap who makes them in Dresden.Maybe the former East part is more lax re the eagles?I don't think they are generally available.You could make enquiries at German model shops perhaps.

I will have to be more carefull when posing for pictures.Those ladies soft make up brushes do a good of of removing dust.

Regards,Bryan

QUOTE (adecoaches26point4 @ 6 May 2007, 12:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have used them on a number of D.R.G loco's.such as this Rivarossi E19.


Nozomi,
Fine photo's of some stunning models

All the best.

David

Thanks David,I will have to do more.
I was impressed with the emblem on your electric loco.It is ust the right size.We have no such swapmeets in Victoria.You have a better chance in UK.
See my reply to Brian.
I am not offended as this was a part of history [I was getting bombed/doodlebuged on at the time!] and it is ironic that so many stunning railway designs came out of that period.
Even William Stanier of the LMS was influenced by them.There was a diesle rail car set [about '38] looking for all the world like the Flying Hamburger.
The Coronation pacifics streamlining was similar to 05's.
I have a DVD with archival film of the Henschel-Wegmann-Zug which shows Mr.Stainier and a large group visiting the DRG in 1934.It even shows them in the Glass railcar.

Best regards,
Bryan.

The 05 4-6-4 streamliners were running regular services daily just under the world speed record .
But with very short trains.

All the best,

David

I wouldn´t risk displaying a model featuring a swastika in Germany (apart from the fact that I despise everything the swastika stands for). Generally, educational or historical context is only assumed when original pictures that date back to the Third Reich are involved - not replicas or models.

The German criminal code clearly states:

Section 86 Dissemination of Means of Propaganda of Unconstitutional Organizations

(1) Whoever domestically disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination domestically or abroad, means of propaganda:

1. of a party which has been declared to be unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a party or organization, as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a party;

2. of an organization, which has been banned, no longer subject to appeal, because it is directed against the constitutional order or against the idea of international understanding, or as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a banned organization;

3. of a government, organization or institution outside of the territorial area of application of this law which is active in pursuing the objectives of one of the parties or organizations indicated in numbers 1 and 2; or

4. means of propaganda, the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organization,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(2) Means of propaganda within the meaning of subsection (1) shall only be those writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) the content of which is directed against the free, democratic constitutional order or the idea of international understanding.

(3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes.

(4) If guilt is slight, the court may refrain from imposition of punishment pursuant to this provision.

Section 86a Use of Symbols of Unconstitutional Organizations

(1) Whoever:

1. domestically distributes or publicly uses, in a meeting or in writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) disseminated by him, symbols of one of the parties or organizations indicated in Section 86 subsection (1), nos. 1, 2 and 4; or

2. produces, stocks, imports or exports objects which depict or contain such symbols for distribution or use domestically or abroad, in the manner indicated in number 1,

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.

(2) Symbols, within the meaning of subsection (1), shall be, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named in sentence 1 shall be deemed to be equivalent thereto.

(3) Section 86 subsections (3) and (4), shall apply accordingly.

(source: http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/ )

In German:
§ 86 Verbreiten von Propagandamitteln verfassungswidriger Organisationen

(1) Wer Propagandamittel

1.
einer vom Bundesverfassungsgericht für verfassungswidrig erklärten Partei oder einer Partei oder Vereinigung, von der unanfechtbar festgestellt ist, daß sie Ersatzorganisation einer solchen Partei ist,
2.
einer Vereinigung, die unanfechtbar verboten ist, weil sie sich gegen die verfassungsmäßige Ordnung oder gegen den Gedanken der Völkerverständigung richtet, oder von der unanfechtbar festgestellt ist, daß sie Ersatzorganisation einer solchen verbotenen Vereinigung ist,
3.
einer Regierung, Vereinigung oder Einrichtung außerhalb des räumlichen Geltungsbereichs dieses Gesetzes, die für die Zwecke einer der in den Nummern 1 und 2 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen tätig ist, oder
4.
Propagandamittel, die nach ihrem Inhalt dazu bestimmt sind, Bestrebungen einer ehemaligen nationalsozialistischen Organisation fortzusetzen,
im Inland verbreitet oder zur Verbreitung im Inland oder Ausland herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt oder in Datenspeichern öffentlich zugänglich macht, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.

(2) Propagandamittel im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind nur solche Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3), deren Inhalt gegen die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung oder den Gedanken der Völkerverständigung gerichtet ist.

(3) Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient.

(4) Ist die Schuld gering, so kann das Gericht von einer Bestrafung nach dieser Vorschrift absehen.

§ 86a Verwenden von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger Organisationen

(1) Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird bestraft, wer

1.
im Inland Kennzeichen einer der in § 86 Abs. 1 Nr. 1, 2 und 4 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen verbreitet oder öffentlich, in einer Versammlung oder in von ihm verbreiteten Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3) verwendet oder
2.
Gegenstände, die derartige Kennzeichen darstellen oder enthalten, zur Verbreitung oder Verwendung im Inland oder Ausland in der in Nummer 1 bezeichneten Art und Weise herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt.
(2) Kennzeichen im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind namentlich Fahnen, Abzeichen, Uniformstücke, Parolen und Grußformen. Den in Satz 1 genannten Kennzeichen stehen solche gleich, die ihnen zum verwechseln ähnlich sind.

(3) § 86 Abs. 3 und 4 gilt entsprechend.
(Source: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86.html )

QUOTE (ME 26-06 @ 8 May 2007, 15:04) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I wouldn´t risk displaying a model featuring a swastika in Germany (apart from the fact that I despise everything the swastika stands for). Generally, educational or historical context is only assumed when original pictures that date back to the Third Reich are involved - not replicas or models.

The German criminal code clearly states:

Section 86 Dissemination of Means of Propaganda of Unconstitutional Organizations

shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine

(4) If guilt is slight?

Very interesting.
A bit stiff for us railway modelers I would have thought.

The swastika figures prominently in Japanese temple architecture design as it does in the rest of the orient.To bad it carries the evil conotation which was not originally intended.Japanese friends here see nothing wrong with the symbol.

I still wonder how Liliput got away with including the hakenkreutz transfers with its 1936 Olympic model.Was it because it was made in Austria.

What about the Reischs adler with the cross in the circle reproduced on various locos and rolling stock of many makers of Era ll models should it be banned also?

I would say that the whole eagle design was highly symbolic of the period and appeared everywhere and on everything.

I like my models as they are and will continue to run and display them even if they are running through my English scenery.
As I have said before it was not the models fault that those stunning designs appeared at that time.

Best regards,
Bryan.

I have to say i am very impressed with the mature way we seem to be discussing this subject on this forum. it has come up here before but it always amazes me when i see us discussing it properly and whenever it is mentioned on other forums it turns into an anti war anti Bush/Blair bunfight within the first 30 minutes!

I think you could display a model with the swatika and not feel guilty about it. but i think it has to be done very carefully. there is absoloutly no room for modellers liscence. it has to be just right. I once had ideas for a model of the ramp at Aushwitz that i feel could be modelled quite tastefully and in a reasonable space. but as i said there is NO room for license. you have to show it exactly as it was.

Nozome you have some nice stock there. i am not sure about big german steamers comming through Rayners Lane!! (even I wouldnt do that!!!!)

Adecoaches i like the E19. i have a roco one in blue/cream. i would really like a new one though. mine has done many miles aaround my garden layout in gloucester and is nearly as old as me! it was purchased by my father from beatties in bristol for £12 (i know that because ti still has the price tag on and the reciept in the box!!) i think its time for a more up to date model to grace my layout. it does look smart in red.

Peter

Hi Peter,

imho this matter is (still) way too serious to have it dragged through the gutter.

As far as the display of nazi symboly is concerned, I believe that a museum that is (at least in part) financed by the state has far better means to make sure that no legal lines are crossed, and that the items they place on display are indeed displayed the way they are solely for educational purposes.

However, for a private person (under German legislation) the question remains on how to make sure that swatikas et al are displayed for historical reasons rather than propaganda. Is it the quality of the model, meaning that a professionally built, museum quality model meets the legal criteria, whereas an amateur building a bunch of Messerschmitts oob, no paint, just decals is prone to having his work seen as the sort of propaganda that is anned by law rather than, too, as educational?

Another trap: should, say, an exact model of a concentration camp be on display at the Holocaust Memorial site in Berlin, nobody will doubt that this is purely educational, due to who is putting this model on display, and for what purposes. On the other hand, the same model put on display by the extreme far-right leaning "Nationalzeitung" will not meet the same criteria, even though we´re talking about the very same model.

For these reasons, most German modellers play it safe and try to avoid any symbols that may be misunderstood as 3rd Reich propaganda; all modlemakers sell their German models sans swastikas to avoid trouble. This whole subject still is very touchy over here, which imho is a good thing, as it keeps the evil that was the 3rd Reich well alive and forces modellers to look into the subject behind the legal red tape over and over again, rather than indiscriminately using these symbols without any second thoughts about them.

Just my two Eurocent.

I always find things like this an interesting discussion.

"Another trap: should, say, an exact model of a concentration camp be on display at the Holocaust Memorial site in Berlin, nobody will doubt that this is purely educational, due to who is putting this model on display, and for what purposes. On the other hand, the same model put on display by the extreme far-right leaning "Nationalzeitung" will not meet the same criteria, even though we´re talking about the very same model."

I actually dont think the 2 groups you mention would build the very same model. one would be tastefull and respectfull. the other would be insulting. i think it is those little details and the (how can i put this, i dont really want to use the word "atmosphere") "feeling" of a model that would dictate weather it was acceptable or not.

here are some pictures of the model at the Impreial War Museum in london.





Do you think this model could be displayed respectfully at an exhibition. i once did a few sketches of a layout based on the ramp (shortly after seeing this one at the IWM) i liked the idea of having evrything grey. i thought it gave a certain distance between us and the peole depicted. i was going to have a black curtain on 3 sides of the layout and extending a couple of feet infront of the layout at the sidesso that if you were looking at the layout then you would be focussed solely on this layout. i wouldnt want to do it if the people were viewing it as simply another layout. i wanted people to see the model and fill in the gaps with their imagination.

Peter

Peter, I think that the model in your photos could very well be put on display in a proper context.

But part of this proper context, or "feeling", are imho the surroundings. Displayed, say, in a museum, or in the context of a Holocaust memorial, maybe even in connection with one of the democratic parties in Germany, it would be OK and serve its intended purpose.

Displayed, like, in a modellers´ competition, or put on display at a lower grade school(*) without explaining what the real thing was about, or even displaying it at a right-wing convention (banned by law, but still...) would be completely out of question.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the model, it is very detailled, the overall paint gives it an almost universal appearance that underlines the impossibility to grasp with one´s mind what happened then.

Dennis, I know of a few militaria modellers who´d go through a lot of loops to get these soldiers, or even decals, to make their models appear more historical. However, chances are that the German customs would open these parcels and confiscate these items, maybe even along with opening a criminal investigation against the customer. I read in a German weekly, the "Stern", that militaria collectors, along with right-wingers, rejoice nowadays due to the fact that they can now purchase SS-uniforms, medals, guns, all sorts of militaria counterfeits made in Poland and sent to Germany. The borders are open, as Poland is an EU member today. This leaves me stunned, as Poland was one of the countries that suffered most from Nazi occupation, you´d think they wouldn´t want to see this stuff again - ever. Then again, money talks.

(*) from 5th grade on, our schoold divide up into Hauptschule (9-10 ys. total, depending on the state you live in) for undergraduates, Realschule (11 ys total) for "normal" performer, and Gymnasium (12-13 ys. total depending...). As the overall educational level is very low on the Hauptschule, with many immigrant kids there (particularly kids of Arab descent have shown to be very open to anti-semitic ideas), I wouldn´t display the model in these schools. On Realschule and Gymnasium, the level of education should be high enough to display it there.

QUOTE (pedromorgan @ 11 May 2007, 14:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I am quite supprised that it is still as bad as you say. I thought the german government had more or less let sleeping dogs lye. I noticed that some preserved german loco's are starting to get their eagles back.

Peter

Peter,

although I´m ashamed to admit it, there´s no use in denying the fact that the right wingers and neo-nazis are increasing their presence, particularly and most notably in the eastern states, what used to be East Germany.

This can be seen in the results the NPD managed to get in the latest state elections. From what read, they are on the rise in Bremen, where elections are due in a few weeks, as well. Nazism is in fact still a peril to what Germany has managed to become after WW2, and has to be rooted out before it becomes a real problem.

This in mind, I personally see it as an absolute necessity for the state to fight this assault on democracy by all democratic means necessary. If this means that a modeller can´t equip his engine or fighter plane with a swastika, then I guess that is the price that has to be paid for a democratic, open society.