[Robert Davies]

Good Evening/Morning/Afternoon Gentlemen.

I have long had a hankering to start my KriegsLok collection, however I have a problem or two:

1. My knowledge of the prototype is reasonable but not encyclopaedic.

2. My knowledge of manufacturers of the HO variety borders on the non-existent.

Locos I'd like (epIII DB with a nod to epIIb DRG) MUST be DCC capable, though hardwiring is no problem at all to me.

BR 52, BR 50, BR 42, BR 44.

Are there any manufacturers that I should avoid? (why?)

Are there any models in an otherwise reputable manufacturer's range that I should avoid?

Work that I've done so far: Isolated that Roco make a 52, 50, and 44. Liliput Austria made 52s are any DCC capable? Liliput (Bachmann) Make both a 52 and 42 - Doug's Tarnfarbe example's review seems quite reasonable... I've not found any Guetzold/Piko KriegsLok in DB - though I'm more than willing to be wrong

Any assistance will be appreciated - though bear in mind that I'm not completely helpless in making recalcitrant locos behave - I've modelled British Outline for 35 years(!).

Sincerest regards,

-Rob

 

[7113]

Trix, Fleischmann and Roco all produce excellent models, which are reliable and hardworking. Piko are starting to turn out very good models as well, and can be very sensibly priced. Now without wishing to stir up a previous subject there seem to be some reliability issues with Lilliput, although they are nice looking models.

Purely my opinion.

Regards

 

[ME 26-06]

Hi Robert,

first off, the earliest Ep.3a steam engines of the Kriegslok variety were still painted in dark gray, as th DB simply had no money to repaint them (some were repainted if they had been severely damaged durind the war and needed major repairs bordering on rebuilding them).

The classes 44 and 50 are NOT Kriegsloks! There were a couple of class 44ÜK and class 50ÜK (ÜK->Übergangskriegslok->intermediate war engine) engines, painted gray, which had been un-refined, i.e. simplified to save time and money buildig them. These carried the ÜK designation as part of their road number, like in "50ÜK 1234" The standard 50s, 44s and - 86s, as there was also an ÜK variant of that engine (reportedly to boost morale on the home front) had been built to peacetime standards.

Class 42: there is only the (Bachmann-)Liliput version, which is DCC ready.
Class 42.9: Not a Kriegslok, but a 1950s Frnco-Crosti conversion made from a class 52. Anyway, it is DCC ready.
Class 44ÜK: Roco makes it, not sure if DCC ready or not
Class 50ÜK: Roco, 8-pin-plug
Class 52: Gützold makes the tub-type tender version as well as the Steifrahmentender version, excellent models, converting them to DCC is a bitch (I'e been there)
Class 52: Roco makes a very, very good model of the tub-type tender version, DCC ready
Class 52: Bachmann-Liliput's model is a bit outdated by now, the cylinders are a bit wide, and Liliput has a nasty way of not fitting smoke deflectors when they, in fact, belong
Class 52 KON: Gützold is outdated, and Trix is quite expensive (albeit DCC ready)
Class 86ÜK: Fleischmann makes it, not sure if DCC ready.

Now, since 2011 is over, and I did make an effort on the above, I do wonder why the vast majority of UK modellers I encounter are only interested in one thing: Hitler, Hitler, and Hitler again. War, war, war. There are so many beautiful and much more interesting (on a technological level) engines from the early 1900s (and folks, there was a war back then as well) like the S3/6 or the C, and there are so neat early electrics from the 1920s. There are the unified designs ("Einheitslokomotiven") from the 1950s, and the last of the steam engines like the 01.10 rebuild, or the class 10. But no, since there was no Germany before 1933 and after 1945, it has to be the 3rd Reich. Maybe due to the massive outpour from the English-language media, and each to his own, but you are missing out on so much more interesting stuff...

OK, rant over. Just keep mentioning the war...

 

[neil_s_wood]

Ummh, not sure where to go with this but I also like epoch II. For me it is the prevalance of streamlined steam locos which I really like. Germany designed and produced some fantastic ships, aeroplanes and vehicles in this period. Having said that I also like epoch I for the reasons outlined by Tom. Some of the best looking steam engines are from this era like the KBay s3/6 and the KPEV S9. I also like some of the later loks from epochs III and IV. Maybe it's a bloke thing liking war and weapons but I would have to admit to being interested in that.

If you are after Kreigsloks, then this may not be a Kreigslok but it would be of interest.

the Trix BR53. Like a Kreigslok but a mallet.

This didn't actually run but was in the design process.

I don't care if it never ran or not; I want one.

cheers

Neil

 

[7113]

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 28 Dec 2011, 22:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>the Trix BR53. Like a Kreigslok but a mallet.

This didn't actually run but was in the design process.

I don't care if it never ran or not; I want one.

It certainly has that Teutonic charm.

Regards

 

[ebaykal]

...and there is also the Baldwins;

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/steam-locomotiv...satc-s160-1.htm

Erkut

 

[Robert Davies]

ME 26-06 I do not wish to start an argument so I'll just put a few off topic thoughts in reply to your post:

Hitler? I could care less about Hitler...

edit

There is a growing unease among historians of my generation that the Allied powers where not the most gracious of victors.

Nearly back on topic, which brings me back to model railways, where the sun always shines, and the worst of the world can be left outside the layout room, and we just simply model ordinary people doing ordinary jobs, living ordinary lives. So, as most model railways are built as a tribute, recognised or not, the British tend to hold the German people in high regard, so building a German epII/epIII layout is their tribute to them NOT some mad Austrian.

ANYWAY! Back on topic, thankyou ME 26-06 for the information regarding the technical and detail observations - I wondered how long I would get away with calling 44s and 50s Kriegsloks

As a quick aside I happen to like all of the wartime Austerity engines, from the 8Fs, WD 2-8-0 and 2-10-0 in UK, via the USATC S160s (does anyone do a model in HO at all/yet) to the Kriegsloks and their ÜK cousins. I would like to do a layout based right on the cusp of epII/epIII 1945/50.

Erkut - I am not saying it is your fault.... But... I am blaming you!

I will explain. Before reading your 37 page layout thread, I had always associated HO German engines with layouts that where perfectly clean, with flashing lights and fairgrounds - your layout just comes alive from making the locos, and stock and landscape just seem so ordinary, but so real - I still have trouble comprehending how you have got so much into so relatively little.

Neil, thanks for your observations - one of my other passions is/was interwar years motor racing, and it is certainly difficult to get away from German Auto-Union and Mercedes success in that era. BR53? looks like a mottled Big Boy with a tub tender! Intriguing nonetheless. Wandering back through your post, I am minded to think what UK locos where like during epI/epIIa - I am not a stellar fan of them, but the German/Prussian locos of that era do have a certain charm - the stock however crosses the 'too twee' line for me (It is just an opinion!!).

Sincerest greatest thanks for your input so far chaps - it really is appreciated.

I have a confession....

I have just bought a grau (saves arguing over grey/gray) Roco BR44 ÜK - all being well I should have it in a week or three. Fitting sound should be interesting...

-Rob

ps I attribute any errors in in my postings to Mac OS X 10.7's delightful autocorrect spelling 'feature'.

 

[ebaykal]

QUOTE (Robert Davies @ 29 Dec 2011, 00:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>........ via the USATC S160s (does anyone do a model in HO at all/yet) to the Kriegsloks and their ÜK cousins.....

Rob , in fact there is;

http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/prodloco.asp?ProdID=3073

Erkut

 

[Brian Considine]

Hi Robert.

The Kriegsloks are certainly some of my favourites - huge powerful brutes, built in huge numbers to simple designs - these locomotives eventually pread far & wide, many still earning their keep - until a few years ago.

The BR53 was never actualy built - a number of tenders were & AFAIK just a couple of locomotive frames manufactured. I have a Trix one with condensing tender - an awesome beast.

I would personally avoid any Chinese made Lilliput (or Bachput as I call it) - nice models, but I have yet to purchase one that runs well, even with some "fettling".

It should be reasonbly easy to build up a collection of HO Kriegsloks (others will advise with the OO). One to avoid is the Trix BR44 - the motor intrudes into the cab & there is a gear visible on the side of the chassis block - having said that, the model will pull anything you can hang on it - more so than even the prototype.

The main problem you will have with non-DCC ready locomotives will be finding room for the decoder - most of the tender drive ones have all available space filled with weight - you can remove somes as these locomotives all have far more than enough power & traction. On some Fleischmann locomotives you can replace the rear tender lights with LED's & fit the decoder in the space where the bulb & holder goes.

Please be sure to keep us posted on the progress of the collection.

 

[ME 26-06]

If you want to fit older engines with DCC - avoid th old Austrian Liliputs at all costs; if you see them as a DCC modeller, RUN!!! - you may want to check out H.P.Pfeiffer's homepage (in German, but lots of pictures).

Link to page

Unfortunately, he tries to sound funny and relaxed on his page, which is well if you are a native speaker, but otherwise, some of the colloquialisms are a bit hard to crack. In dubio, just ask.

And, since you already have the class 44ÜK, you can see here how Mr Pfeiffer converted it to DCC: class 44ÜK conversion

The reason why i'm a bit miffed is how, at train shows, I've seen my share of native English speakers who'll gladly buy anything as long as it has a swastika on it (even if it's a repainted V200). Or friends from the states who never ever got to see my real home town, or my adopted one which was left nearly unscathed in the war and has so much medieval flair - instead, they try to see as many concentration camps as they can (which is fine with me, I've seen quite a few as well), then go to Nuremberg to see where Hitler spoke, to Berlin where Göring had ruled until his demise, and return home telling people how evil and nazi this place still is. Jeremy Clarkson telling UK viewers how he doesn't like Porsche cars (which, again, is fine with anybody) because they had been derived from the Beetle, which was Hitler's design. And BMW engineers are nazis as well (according to Clarkson). And don't get me started on the Daily Mail, where xenophobia and keeping the 3rd Reich alive seems to be a way of life. Please don't get me wrong, the Third Reich was and will always be a part of German history, a vile and murderous one where millions of innocent people had been murdered and millions more lost everything but their very lives. Many soldiers on all sides made the ultimate sacrifice for what they thought was right, and like the victims who perished in the concentration camps, they should never be forgotten. And still, there is so much more to how Europe's continental borders came to be today that the sole focus on these dark years will prevent many from seeing the better parts before, and after, the rise and Fall of Adolf Schicklgruber, later adopted by Alois Hitler.

Now, back to the war engines. For those interested in some more information, there are various sources to check out.

Personally, I'd recommend the Eisenbahn Journal specials, as there are a lot of pictures - mostly post-war - and technical drawings in there:

Hans Wiegand, Manfred Weisbrod: "Die BR 42. Eine Kriegslokomotive" (#III/1999)
Manfred Wisbrod, Horst J. Obermayer:"Die Baureihe 52" (#II/96)

These are out of print, so you might either want to check out eBay OR try to obtain them as pdfs from Eisenbahn Journal's Spezial DVD (please check the EDIT at the bottom of my post), which contains nearly all specials until iirc 2003.

Another good read would be

Alfred B. Gottwald, "Deutsche Kriegslokomotiven 1939 bis 1945", Transpress Verlag, ISBN 3-344-71032-x

There is a 1970s book on these engines as well, but it is considered outdated, as it still lacks the post-reunification material from East German, Polish and Russian archives. You can also buy books like "Die Deutsche Reichsbahn im Zweiten Weltkrieg" by the Polish historian Janusz Piekalkewicz, which are good (as are most of his works), but have only very few Kriegslok pictures, as the Reichsbahn heavily relied on class 38 and 57 engines in the earlier war years.

And, there is also the postcard series by Eisenbahn Kurier, which has pictures made by rail photographer Carl Bellingrodt, and has a set of 10 each on the 42 and 52 (mostly post-war pictures).

Another engine, the class E94 electric is also considered a war type, the KEL or Kriegselektrolok, a less refined class 93, so you may want to add that to your collection as well )if you fancy electrics, that is).

EDIT: got a bit confused with the DVDs; if you want to cover the classes 42 and 52, you'd need to order this DVD from Eisenbahn Journal. 25 Euro plus shipping, which is what the two magazines would cost you at their current price of 12,50 Euro a piece. IF they were available tht is, which unfortunately, they aren't. And you even get two specials on the class 44 on the DVD, as well as one on my beloved S3/6 (among others). I may want to buy this one myself...

 

[adecoaches26point4]

Sorry slightly off topic.

This is to add to Tom's point.

Politics aside, Epoche II was the pinnacle of Railway development, with high speed services with all types of traction and high quality trains by both CIWL and the Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft.
The exciting introduction of the streamlined locomotives, especially the big BR 05 locomotives running daily at 125mph on the Hamburg - Berlin route.
There is a lot to offer from the Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft prior to WW II.

This link is worth a look at period photographs for modelling potential.

http://www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/?action...ry&thema=64

Regards
David

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (adecoaches26point4 @ 29 Dec 2011, 17:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The exciting introduction of the streamlined locomotives, especially the big BR 05 locomotives running daily at 125mph on the Hamburg - Berlin route.

That's something I'll never understand - why did the DR not make more of this - after all, only 1mph off Mallards record breaking run - taking into account that Mallard was, to coin a modern phrase "trashed" in the event & the BR05's were running daily at 125mph, surely in that case a BR05 if given the chance would have well & truely beaten Mallard ?

Of course, examples of both locomotives still exist & enough streatches of line too.................

(no downhill "cheating" either, not that I'm suggesting anything).

 

[adecoaches26point4]

QUOTE (Brian Considine @ 29 Dec 2011, 18:17) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That's something I'll never understand - why did the DR not make more of this.

They did, stating it's a normal daily service not a one off.

The only problem was that after WWII they had the boiler pressure reduced due to poor quality materials used in constructing the boiler and were withdrawn in the late 1950's.
The other streamlined locomotives of classes BR 01.10 and BR 03.10 also suffered with this fault, all received modern boilers from the mid 1950's, becoming very successful locomotives with the Deutsches Bundesbahn

BR 05 002 on Express FD 23 to Berlin seen leaving Hamburg Central Station . (04.05.1938) Foto: DLA Darmstadt:

http://www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/?action...%20in%20Hamburg

Regards
David

 

[Brian Considine]

Thanks for the information & the photo link David.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (adecoaches26point4 @ 30 Dec 2011, 04:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Sorry slightly off topic.

This is to add to Tom's point.

Politics aside, Epoche II was the pinnacle of Railway development, with high speed services with all types of traction and high quality trains by both CIWL and the Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft.
The exciting introduction of the streamlined locomotives, especially the big BR 05 locomotives running daily at 125mph on the Hamburg - Berlin route.
There is a lot to offer from the Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft prior to WW II.

This link is worth a look at period photographs for modelling potential.

http://www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/?action...ry&thema=64

Regards
David
Well put David, this was what I was trying to say but didn't quite get there.

cheers

Neil

 

[ME 26-06]

QUOTE (adecoaches26point4 @ 29 Dec 2011, 18:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Politics aside, Epoche II was the pinnacle of Railway development, with high speed services with all types of traction and high quality trains by both CIWL and the Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft.
The exciting introduction of the streamlined locomotives, especially the big BR 05 locomotives running daily at 125mph on the Hamburg - Berlin route.
There is a lot to offer from the Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft prior to WW II...

My point exactly, the Kriegslok engines were in fact a step backwards. As for Ep.II, think of the great Rheingold consists, the massive Silesian electric behemoths, the diesel railcars (VT 25 iirc) that had been introduced, the high-pressure or the steam-turbine experimental engines. The beautiful and successful class 41 Mikado. Or the expedited freight trains that sought to combat road transport. The early diesel engines, like the V140.

Deutsche Reichsbahn Epoche II is so much more than just tank gray war engines.

 

[Robert Davies]

Erkut, thanks for drawing my attention to the DJH S160 - I am pretty sure that I would run out of talent or patience long before I could complete it!

Tom, I do not know where to begin thanking you for the wealth of information - and the diversions that you have me down - I have now discovered BR 01 with Wagner deflectors!! What a machine! Thanks again!

Neil, Brian, et al, thanks for the tangents... They could prove expensive!

Feel free to wander along any tangents you may feel to be useful - in relation to German Steam of course

-Rob

 

[Robert Davies]

Talking of tangents...

Can anyone ID any of the stock behind this 01:

http://www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/?action...6&thema=256

If you can, is it commercially available?

Tracking down a viable BR 01 is proving somewhat tricky... The Trix availability is nearly non-existent, and the Roco needs substantial power tools to DCC it (well not really, it just seems like it!).

Thanks again

-Rob

 

[Robert Davies]

QUOTE (Robert Davies @ 30 Dec 2011, 03:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>....and the Roco needs substantial power tools to DCC it (well not really, it just seems like it!).

That would have been the other loco I have been looking at, the Prussian derived BR 58, the 01 is of course available as DCC ready or fitted (D'OH!)

-Rob

 

[ME 26-06]

QUOTE (Robert Davies @ 30 Dec 2011, 08:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>That would have been the other loco I have been looking at, the Prussian derived BR 58, the 01 is of course available as DCC ready or fitted (D'OH!)

-Rob

Rob,

if you want a class 58, you may also want to take a look at the Hornby-Rivarossi engine. It has its flaws, but is DCC ready and much more detailled, but break it in while the warranty lasts, as the ride on some can be rather wonky, and the plastic seems to be a bit brittle. OTOH, the Roco still is a fine engine...

As for the 01's train, I'll give it a go: the first coach is a 28er, or 1928 version passenger coach; Bachmann-Liliput and Roco make them. Then, there's an old Prussian coach as is made by Brawa, the rest I'm not so sure about. And, if you like the 01 with Wagner deflectors, wait until you discover the 41. Picture here, although with Witte deflectors,

If you are also interested in post-war steam (which wasn't that much different from pre-war, as West Germany was pretty much broke after the war and used a lot of old equipment up before going more or less straight towards diesel engines), try this page: www.bundesbahnzeit.de . There is a treasure trove (imho) of great pictures in there, and you can enlarge the pictures by clicking on them.

As an aside, before recommending some more literature to you (like Ernst Maedel's "Deutsche Dampflokomotiven", which is a great start for anybody interested in German steam, and rather inexpensive as well), do you speak a bit of German? Many books contain a bit of text, and others are pictures only, so for the aforementioned, a smattering of Deutsch might help. Or, if you don't mind, I could give you some translations that will help guide you in the right direction.

Oh, and if you encounter any Eisenbahn Kurier books by Carl Bellingrodt, who was Germany's leading steam era photographer, grab hold of them. The pictures are usually supreme.

You might also like these:
Youtube film 1
Bundesbahn steam by Dutch rail enthusiast Ton Pruissen

Oh, and Rob - as an apology for my rant, may I offer to you that if you see something on eBay or elsewher, and the seller will only ship to Germany, you can have it sent to my address and I will forward the goods to you? Because, many sellers (DVDs in particular) seem hesitant to ship abroad, and those Bellingrodt and Ton Pruissen DVDs are really worth their price. Imho.