Hornby 2P

4712 Views 15 Replies 7 Participants Last post by DS239, Oct 19, 2006

millerk

Discussion Starter · Oct 16, 2006

Can anyone tell me if the hornby 2p (http://www.thesignalbox.co.uk/inc/showpic.php/showpic.php?src=R2527),is tender driven, I suspect not, its a great model but I cant face a tender drive if it is.

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dwb

· #2 · Oct 16, 2006

I think it is tender drive. If you open the enlarged view of the model on the Hornby website there is a hint of tender drive gears between the wheels. The Hattons website states the drive is in the tender. That's not conclusive but the signs are bad. I did not manage to locate a service sheet on the Hornby website.

David

millerk

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 17, 2006

I agree there does seem to be some gears, I notice that the smaller tender locos all seem to have tender drive, which puts me off. Its a shame because I really want the 2P for my layout. However, the Bachmann crab or 4MT is a good compromise.

Brian Considine

· #4 · Oct 17, 2006

QUOTE (keekster64 @ 16 Oct 2006, 21:32) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Can anyone tell me if the hornby 2p (http://www.thesignalbox.co.uk/inc/showpic.php/showpic.php?src=R2527),is tender driven, I suspect not, its a great model but I cant face a tender drive if it is.

Why do people have such a problem with tender drive ?

It appears to me that UK locomotive drive models are hopeless with traction power (my only UK purchase for 25 odd years - Clan Line could only manage 4 very free running coaches - soon sold on !). Other people here have also commented on useless haulage.

Does it really matter as long as the performance is there ?

Or do people want to "slip" the driving wheels ?

I don't subscribe to the "it's a steam loco, so the driving wheels should drive" school - after all (unless, of course you have Hornby Live Steam & that does not use coal anyway !) what we are talking about is a steam outline model with an electric motor !

So tonight I will go & watch my Fleischmann tender drive loks pulling 15 coach trains effortlessly round.

Unless you are very lucky, us railway modellers have to accept many, many compromises - IMHO if you want decent haulage power for steam outline you have to accept tender drive or use metal bodied locomotives.

best regards
Brian

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Makemineadouble

· #5 · Oct 17, 2006 (Edited by Moderator)

The 2P:4F:4P are all quite definately tender drive.

QUOTE Why do people have such a problem with tender drive ?

Because:
The Hornby Tender drive has
traction tyres (poor arrangement for DCC)
the motor lacks torque and controllability - Ringfield Motor
all the above models lack good low speed control

My experience with the 4P and 2P was I could get some low speed running, but just inching the trottle up a click
lead the 4F inparticular to race away. I had two example of the 4F and three examples of the 2P, all are awaiting new chassis.

Good body through, idea for fitting a Comet chassis.
BTW the Merchant Navy on my layout could easy handle 7 Mk1 coaches and thats with a 2% gradient.

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neil_s_wood

· #6 · Oct 17, 2006 (Edited by Moderator)

QUOTE Why do people have such a problem with tender drive ?

It appears to me that UK locomotive drive models are hopeless with traction power (my only UK purchase for 25 odd years - Clan Line could only manage 4 very free running coaches - soon sold on !). Other people here have also commented on useless haulage.

Does it really matter as long as the performance is there ?
I don't really care as long as it works ok. The problems are as MMaD has pointed out is that Hornby tender drives are hopeless. I think it's more the crappy motor used than where the motor is. I have a GNER 225 which cant even pull six coaches on the horizontal. It is the same motor as in my Britannia and it really is rubbish. There is no weight to enable traction. Even if you add weight to it it is still struggling.

Having said that I have just got a set of coaches for my White Knight which is loco drive and it's hopeless too. So my conclusions are that Hornby have shit motors.

QUOTE BTW the Merchant Navy on my layout could easy handle 7 Mk1 coaches and thats with a 2% gradient. My Merchant Navy is the best of my DCC converted Hornbys. I may give it a whirl with a full rake of coaches and see if it's any good.

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Colombo

· #7 · Oct 17, 2006

Long ago, I had a Hornby LMS 2P (R450) that was loco driven.

I am quite sure about that because I put a speaker in the tender for my home made sound system that I built without the aid of microchips. The locomotive has magnadesion for better traction and so worked best on steel rails, which I did not have on my garage layout. However with a bit of extra lead in the boiler front, it seemed to work well enough.

I still have the loco and I expect that it will have to refurbished soon for my Grandson.

Colombo

millerk

Discussion Starter · #8 · Oct 17, 2006

Interesting to the read the above comments. I definitely want good low speed running and I dont feel the Hornby model will provide that potential. My view is if other manufacturers can provide good performance with the motor in the loco, then why cant Hornby, afterall its the loco thats supposed to pull the train. I'm prepared to compromise and buy a Bachmann Crab instead which I believe give excellent performance.

Makemineadouble

· #9 · Oct 17, 2006

QUOTE Having said that I have just got a set of coaches for my White Knight which is loco drive and it's hopeless too. So my conclusions are that Hornby have shit motors

I don't have a Gresley Pacfic, but I'm very suprised to hear you have traction problems with one. Going back just a little the Black five has excellent pulling power and a fairly light body. Have Hornby motors changed recently ?, certainly not in appearance. It might be you have a poor motor, my experience with the new Hornby motor has been very favourable. The pulling power of the 8F (same motor is outstanding, I have several I've used under an S&Djr 7F body, with the lead body they can really pull an excellent load.
I think before you consider returning this loco to hornby make sure all the wheels are in full contact with the rails. Check that the front bogey isn't preventing this, it's equally important to check the rear catazzi pony isn't preventing proper adhesion. If necessary run the loco with out the pony or the bogie to see if there's a difference. Normally lack of torque with a motor is very apparent, if this is the case return the Loco to Hornby and request a new motor, ( mark to old one to check if they change it ).

Finally consider adding a little liquid lead over the driving wheels if possible. This can be added in stages using PVA.

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DS239

· #10 · Oct 17, 2006

QUOTE (Colombo @ 17 Oct 2006, 10:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Long ago, I had a Hornby LMS 2P (R450) that was loco driven.

Yes,-that was the old Tri-ang era one,-the current one is the old Airfix [then Dapol] model,the only modification to the design that Hornby have carried out is to fit pick-ups on the loco bogie.
So yes,of course it is tender drive,they run okay-ish, but are noisy and definately not 'state-of-the-art',but,as Makemineadouble points out the bodies are accurate and ideal for putting on a nice scale Comet chassis [especially to EM or P4 gauges

]

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Makemineadouble

· #11 · Oct 17, 2006

Reports of the Hornby Brittiania pulling 12 coaches with ease makes the reported problem with White knight even more puzzling as they share the same 5 pole motor.

QUOTE Having said that I have just got a set of coaches for my White Knight which is loco drive and it's hopeless too. So my conclusions are that Hornby have shit motors. Neil s Wood

Perhaps you should also check that the tender isnt lifting the loco body just a little, certainly your White Knight seem to be the exception to the rule.

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neil_s_wood

· #12 · Oct 17, 2006

QUOTE Finally consider adding a little liquid lead over the driving wheels if possible. This can be added in stages using PVA.

After the trauma of fitting a decoder I am reluctant to reopen this one. I think weight is the issue though. More weight should increase traction. I may have to bite the bullet and reopen it.

Brian Considine

· #13 · Oct 18, 2006 (Edited by Moderator)

QUOTE (neil_s_wood @ 17 Oct 2006, 23:51) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>After the trauma of fitting a decoder I am reluctant to reopen this one. I think weight is the issue though. More weight should increase traction. I may have to bite the bullet and reopen it.

Even if this is a "cure" it just should not be necessary for the end user to have to modify in this way relativly expensive models - in any case, even in these environmently friendly times some sort of dense weight should not be too diffecult for a manufacturer to use.

best regards
Brian

millerk

Discussion Starter · #14 · Oct 18, 2006

QUOTE (DS239 @ 17 Oct 2006, 19:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes,-that was the old Tri-ang era one,-the current one is the old Airfix [then Dapol] model,the only modification to the design that Hornby have carried out is to fit pick-ups on the loco bogie.
So yes,of course it is tender drive,they run okay-ish, but are noisy and definately not 'state-of-the-art',but,as Makemineadouble points out the bodies are accurate and ideal for putting on a nice scale Comet chassis [especially to EM or P4 gauges

]
Cant see any reason to fork out for a new chassis just after buying a brand new loco though.

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neil_s_wood

· #15 · Oct 18, 2006

QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 18 Oct 2006, 17:04) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Even if this is a "cure" it just should not be necessary for the end user to have to modify in this way relativly expensive models - in any case, even in these environmently friendly times some sort of dense weight should not be too diffecult for a manufacturer to use.

best regards
Brian
This is a point I've been making for a while, that these locos are not DCC ready or ready to run when you have all this pissing about to do to get them to run properly under dcc or pull coaches.

To be honest I will probably stop buying Hornby for another couple of years and see if they improve in the meantime.

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DS239

· #16 · Oct 19, 2006

QUOTE (keekster64 @ 18 Oct 2006, 08:32) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Cant see any reason to fork out for a new chassis just after buying a brand new loco though.

Just buy a Hornby loco body and tender body pairing from East Kent Models,and put them on a Comet Models chassis kit..you can use either Hornby or Comet tender underframes,and wheels/motor/gearbox of your choice,...no need to buy the Hornby bits that you don't want...

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