[dunc]

Hi, I have a Hornby DCC ready 8f I wish to convert to DCC with smoke and sound, I have a seuthe 22 smoke generator, will this be ok? what would you recommend for the motor/sound decoder (are there any that would fit the fitted Hornby connector?) and any tips on fitting all of the above would be greatly appreciated (my DCC controller is the Hornby Elite)
thanks

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (dunc @ 19 Jan 2008, 23:00) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi, I have a Hornby DCC ready 8f I wish to convert to DCC with smoke and sound, I have a seuthe 22 smoke generator, will this be ok? what would you recommend for the motor/sound decoder (are there any that would fit the fitted Hornby connector?) and any tips on fitting all of the above would be greatly appreciated (my DCC controller is the Hornby Elite)
thanks

***The Seuthe 22 will be fine. You will need an ESU loksound decoder and a 20x40 oval speaker will fit the tender. Speaker + sound decoder will be close to 100 quid.

The Sound decoder and speaker will have to go in the tender so even though yes it does have an 8 pin plug on it you cannot simply do a plug and play install for sound - sorry. This will be a total re-wire of loco and tender (leaving out the Hornby capacitor and inductors) to get the best job done...

(Ages since I did one, but from memory, you will also have to cut the coal space slope sheet in the tender for this installation)

You will also need to either use a small 6 pin connector (or 4 pin plus the tender connections that already exist... OR permanently couple loco and tender as there will be 6 wires needed between them now.

They will be:

two for power pickup from loco to decoder power inputs in the tender (black and red) .
two from decoder in the tender to motor in the loco (Orange and Gray) .
two from decoder in the tender to smoke unit in the loco (you won't need lights, so white and blue can be used).

Its not a difficult install, and it can sound very good if installed well, but it is also NOT a good one for your first "hard wired" installation if you've not done one before.

While U have it apart, take the opportunity to add weight to every available bit of space in the loco and enhance its pulling power even more.

Regards

Richard Johnson
DCCconcepts

 

[dunc]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 19 Jan 2008, 14:54) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***The Seuthe 22 will be fine. You will need an ESU loksound decoder and a 20x40 oval speaker will fit the tender. Speaker + sound decoder will be close to 100 quid.

The Sound decoder and speaker will have to go in the tender so even though yes it does have an 8 pin plug on it you cannot simply do a plug and play install for sound - sorry. This will be a total re-wire of loco and tender (leaving out the Hornby capacitor and inductors) to get the best job done...

(Ages since I did one, but from memory, you will also have to cut the coal space slope sheet in the tender for this installation)

You will also need to either use a small 6 pin connector (or 4 pin plus the tender connections that already exist... OR permanently couple loco and tender as there will be 6 wires needed between them now.

They will be:

two for power pickup from loco to decoder power inputs in the tender (black and red) .
two from decoder in the tender to motor in the loco (Orange and Gray) .
two from decoder in the tender to smoke unit in the loco (you won't need lights, so white and blue can be used).

Its not a difficult install, and it can sound very good if installed well, but it is also NOT a good one for your first "hard wired" installation if you've not done one before.

While U have it apart, take the opportunity to add weight to every available bit of space in the loco and enhance its pulling power even more.

Regards

Richard Johnson
DCCconcepts

 

[dunc]

Hi, thanks for that, I have chipped a non DCC ready Black 5 and done a non DCC ready Castle with smoke and chip so I thought I might go another step and try sound, this chip you mention does it come with a generic steam sound ready installed as I don't fancy having to program that in too!, also where is the best place to get the small connectors from so that I can detach the tender and use it on another loco, the black 5 for example.

 

[Makemineadouble]

if you want to couple the tender permanently to the loco, one simple method is as follows:

remove the tender connector, and remove all the copper fittings and wires, you simply have a flat pressing with three holes.
remove the wires from the tender side and drill out the centre pin. Lever off the silver plate.
epoxy in an 3m screw in the hole where the centre pin was, this passes through link pin
with the tender top on the screw is invisible unless you turn the loco over
when you've finished your installation fit the nut and add a little super glue to the end.

If you working on the tender check the back to backs they frequently poorly set
check the tender pick-ups very often none of them contact the wheel backs.

With regard to the tender top remove the coal load, and then drill out the largest space possible I use the drill as a cutter, and finish off with a knife file and then needle file. Cut some plasti -card to fit, and epoxy in place from underneath you don't need a lot of epoxy. Finish the top with PVA glue and coal. With the nice speakers available from ESU I often don't drill holes in the tender top, this can improve the sound quality as a bonus. Where space is at a premium, it often helps to be able to mill some clearance in the tender weight if you access to a workshop.

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 20 Jan 2008, 08:25) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>if you want to couple the tender permanently to the loco, one simple method is as follows:

remove the tender connector, and remove all the copper fittings and wires, you simply have a flat pressing with three holes.
remove the wires from the tender side and drill out the centre pin. Lever off the silver plate.
epoxy in an 3m screw in the hole where the centre pin was, this passes through link pin
with the tender top on the screw is invisible unless you turn the loco over
when you've finished your installation fit the nut and add a little super glue to the end.

If you working on the tender check the back to backs they frequently poorly set
check the tender pick-ups very often none of them contact the wheel backs.

With regard to the tender top remove the coal load, and then drill out the largest space possible I use the drill as a cutter, and finish off with a knife file and then needle file. Cut some plasti -card to fit, and epoxy in place from underneath you don't need a lot of epoxy. Finish the top with PVA glue and coal. With the nice speakers available from ESU I often don't drill holes in the tender top, this can improve the sound quality as a bonus. Where space is at a premium, it often helps to be able to mill some clearance in the tender weight if you access to a workshop.

**As always 100% excellent advice from MMaD

Bromsgrove models have the 6 wire connectors available ex stock.

I presume you are in the UK....you should be able to buy a LokSound from Southwest Digital with a Stanier sound ready to go - I think they do a black 5.

If you are in OZ please PM me.

Regards

Richard
DCCconcepts
Perth, WA

 

[dunc]

Right chaps, I'll have a go, I'll be back to you if I get into difficulties if thats ok?
many thanks

 

[Richard Johnson]

Go for it dunc - take your time, be methodical and you'll do just fine. any questions along the way, just ask.

Richard

 

[34C]

I strongly support Richard's suggestion to use the opportunity to get some weight into the loco body. You can get a second desirable mod done while about this, line the smokebox drum inside with a snug fitting piece of brass or steel tube. It will be a good heatsink for the smoke unit and will prevent the plastic smokebox from slightly deforming from the smoke oil and heat.

The other mod I think essential on this Hornby, is to add a soldered connection to the pick-ups one side on the loco, which as supplied uses the chassis block as the current path. The problem this can lead to is that since the metal motion bracket is live to chassis, there can easily be occasional shorts between the motion and the wheel tyres on the insulated side. Not a problem on DC, very annoying when it causes system trips on DCC.

 

[Makemineadouble]

The motion bracket is plastic on the 8F.
Both pick up's rely on the pressure of the base plate to transfer current, given the degree of distortion one sees on these, and the Chinese enthusiasm for tightening screws, the additional pick up wire is a very sound idea, where did you path this though the body ?. If so this is major strip down of components and not one every modeller would wish to undertake. From this aspect I find the Bachmann chassis is much sounder electrically. I've also come across quite a few failed Hornby motors since Christmas, one on a brand new loco.

 

[Kirrin Castle]

Hey guys, I did a standard "motor only" decoder install on the 8F recently and used a TCS MC2 in the smoke box. Bach decoder was too big by about 1 mm in width. It runs supberly at slow speed on DCC.

Considering the lack of room inside the loco the smoke and sound option is going to be a squeeze...............good luck.

Dave

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 20 Jan 2008, 21:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The motion bracket is plastic on the 8F.
Both pick up's rely on the pressure of the base plate to transfer current, given the degree of distortion one sees on these, and the Chinese enthusiasm for tightening screws, the additional pick up wire is a very sound idea, where did you path this though the body ?. If so this is major strip down of components and not one every modeller would wish to undertake. From this aspect I find the Bachmann chassis is much sounder electrically. I've also come across quite a few failed Hornby motors since Christmas, one on a brand new loco.

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (Watty @ 21 Jan 2008, 16:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hey guys, I did a standard "motor only" decoder install on the 8F recently and used a TCS MC2 in the smoke box. Bach decoder was too big by about 1 mm in width. It runs supberly at slow speed on DCC.

Considering the lack of room inside the loco the smoke and sound option is going to be a squeeze...............good luck.

Dave

***Yes Dave, I agree that for a loco install, the MC2 is dead easy and gives super running!

but.... look up the thread:
You are right re the space however... We are advising that the decoder and speaker are both put in the tender, so there'll be room to add some weight in the loco area where the decoder/DCC socket normally are - all that will be in the loco is the smoke unit, added weight and the motor....

Regards

Richard

 

[Kirrin Castle]

Sorry Richard, I went off-thread. Getting all the sound stuff in the tender will be a good project- one which I hope the 2 main mfrs will help us all by putting the decoder plug in htere for simple motor only or sound installations in future. I belive that's what the continental guys already do. Ive not tried sound yet but am really keen to do so- probably in a diesel first though to get some experience of the installation and set up.

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 21 Jan 2008, 12:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***Yes Dave, I agree that for a loco install, the MC2 is dead easy and gives super running!

but.... look up the thread:
You are right re the space however... We are advising that the decoder and speaker are both put in the tender, so there'll be room to add some weight in the loco area where the decoder/DCC socket normally are - all that will be in the loco is the smoke unit, added weight and the motor....

Regards

Richard

 

[34C]

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 20 Jan 2008, 21:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The motion bracket is plastic on the 8F.
Both pick up's rely on the pressure of the base plate to transfer current, given the degree of distortion one sees on these, and the Chinese enthusiasm for tightening screws, the additional pick up wire is a very sound idea, where did you path this though the body ?. If so this is major strip down of components and not one every modeller would wish to undertake. From this aspect I find the Bachmann chassis is much sounder electrically. I've also come across quite a few failed Hornby motors since Christmas, one on a brand new loco.
Two differences between the 8F you are looking at, and the pair I have bought by the sounds of it.

On my two there's a metal strip motion bracket that goes across the chassis screwed on in the centre, ensuring the motion is live to the chassis block as supplied. Design change since I bought mine a couple of years back?

As for putting in an extra soldered on wire, while eliminating the contact pin that Hornby use to make the chassis block live. With the keeper plates off, it was possible to feed a thin wire up through the same void under the motor followed by the soldered on wire to the other pick up strip. (One side already had a soldered on wire from pick up strip to NEM socket, in other words.)

I quite accept that many would not want to fiddle about with their model in this way. I don't really want to either, but needs must when the devil drives: a couple of 4'8" spoked wheel, 8 coupled, loco drive chassis were needed for projects, and while on offer for under £50 were the best package for the job...

 

[Makemineadouble]

I was talking about the loco drive model, the older version with tender drive has a metal bracket. If you get the opportunity take a modern one and remove the base plate. One pole lines up with an eyelet and a soldered wire, the other with a cast pin, making that side live. I could of course pick up a centre on my Mill and drill out the pin and attach a wire to the pick up, but that's a lot of unnecessary work. I thought Ureaka 34C has found a better way !