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I am looking to buy one or more class 56. Is the Hornby and the Dapol model the same, or is one better than the other? Any advice would be gratefully received before I buy.
Hornby class 56
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It would be fair to say that the Hornby version can be purchased new and currently has a 5 pole motor for improved performance and has the reliable Hornby running gear and pick ups. The current Hornby body printing and detailing standards are definitely much better with no blurriness of definition.
Dapol have not sold this model for 10 years and the Dapol version had the Mainline running gear.
Mainline, Dapol and Hornby all use the same body tooling.
I have no personal experience of the Dapol or Mainline examples.
Basically unless you have a need to pick up a specific loco livery and number made by Dapol or Mainline all those years ago I would stick with the Hornby one.
Happy modelling
Gary
Dapol have not sold this model for 10 years and the Dapol version had the Mainline running gear.
Mainline, Dapol and Hornby all use the same body tooling.
I have no personal experience of the Dapol or Mainline examples.
Basically unless you have a need to pick up a specific loco livery and number made by Dapol or Mainline all those years ago I would stick with the Hornby one.
Happy modelling
Gary
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Thanks for the info Gary, I will definitely go for a Hornby one.
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I have recentley bought a Hornby 56 in Railfreight grey red stripe livery. I think it is a fantastic model. Excellent detail and crisp livery. Well impressed with the moulded roof detail. Nice and weighty too. As long as your not a 'rivet counter' then you won't be dissappointed.
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I agree. go with the hornby.
Peter
Peter
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QUOTE (Gary @ 1 Dec 2005, 09:10)currently has a 5 pole motor for improved performance and has the reliable Hornby running gear and pick ups.
Erm...,no it doesn't actually!,the Hornby model is exactly the same design as the Dapol version but with blackened wheel treads,though I was told by one of Hornby's engineers that the manufacturing tolerances were 'tightened up',-so in this respect,and the paint finish, it is improved,although no fundamental redesign of the tooling has actually taken place.
There,I've altered the wording so it reads better,-happy now Dennis?
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,and Gary,-yes, I did read your initial reply,-that's why I only quoted the part concerning the mechanicals.
Erm...,no it doesn't actually!,the Hornby model is exactly the same design as the Dapol version but with blackened wheel treads,though I was told by one of Hornby's engineers that the manufacturing tolerances were 'tightened up',-so in this respect,and the paint finish, it is improved,although no fundamental redesign of the tooling has actually taken place.
There,I've altered the wording so it reads better,-happy now Dennis?
If you read my initial reply:-
QUOTE Mainline, Dapol and Hornby all use the same body tooling.
However, having now taken my Class 56 body off to reveal the chassis it does appear to have a motor housing unique to this model. And when I checked the service sheet on the Hornby website the list of spares also appear to be unique to this model. So it could well be that the chassis design is identical to that produced by Dapol and next time I see one I will definitely take more of an interest than I normally do.
Now Hornby do claim that this model has a 5 pole motor in their catalogue and on their website. However, the Hornby service sheet shows a 3 pole motor!
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Notwithstanding all this it cannot be denied that my Hornby Class 56 is a top performer and a smooth runner, and with directional lighting at both ends.
Happy modelling
Gary
QUOTE Mainline, Dapol and Hornby all use the same body tooling.
However, having now taken my Class 56 body off to reveal the chassis it does appear to have a motor housing unique to this model. And when I checked the service sheet on the Hornby website the list of spares also appear to be unique to this model. So it could well be that the chassis design is identical to that produced by Dapol and next time I see one I will definitely take more of an interest than I normally do.
Now Hornby do claim that this model has a 5 pole motor in their catalogue and on their website. However, the Hornby service sheet shows a 3 pole motor!
Notwithstanding all this it cannot be denied that my Hornby Class 56 is a top performer and a smooth runner, and with directional lighting at both ends.
Happy modelling
Gary
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Used the same tooling but tighted up the tolerances?
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QUOTE (paul_d @ 1 Dec 2005, 15:31)I have recentley bought a Hornby 56 in Railfreight grey red stripe livery. I think it is a fantastic model. Excellent detail and crisp livery. Well impressed with the moulded roof detail. Nice and weighty too.
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Since writing that piece, I finally got round to running it on the track. Safe to say, that's where my praise for this particular 56 ends!
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There are a number of issues with the motor and drivetrain, probably not faults, just annoyances. They are all probably linked as well.
First, the motor/drivetrain sound horrible (like one of them wind up toys).
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Second, it has no slow speed capability at all. At low voltage the motor just buzzes and 'sticks'. When it finally does overcome friction and 'sticktion' (is that what it's called?), it sets off like a bolted horse. You can then slow it down, but it 'stalls' well before acceptable slow speed running.
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Third, not really a problem but it seems to be very highly geared for a freight loco. It is incredibly fast - is there any need?
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I have run it for 1/2 an hour with no difference. I have put some oil on the gears as per instructions - no difference. When turning the output gear off the motor shaft, you can feel what a 'lumpy' motor it is. The other gears seem quite free.
So being a novice in this hobby could someone answer me the following questions:
1) Should I expect to see improvement after 1/2 hrs running in? Whats the recommended running in time?
2) Do you think it might be the old Dapol 3 pole motor? (the rest is Dapol)
3) Technically it isn't faulty because it runs, so I would assume Hornby wouldn't be prepared to have a look at it?
4) Is there anything I can do to improve it (short of replacing motor), or should I just accept that this loco is a bit of a 'duffer' and just lump it?
It's a shame about it's running quality as it's a nice looking loco. But when compared to my Hornby 47, it really is a dog. The 47 is so smooth and crawls along sleeper by sleeper (straight from the box with no running in)
Any comments appreciated
Paul
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Since writing that piece, I finally got round to running it on the track. Safe to say, that's where my praise for this particular 56 ends!
There are a number of issues with the motor and drivetrain, probably not faults, just annoyances. They are all probably linked as well.
First, the motor/drivetrain sound horrible (like one of them wind up toys).
Second, it has no slow speed capability at all. At low voltage the motor just buzzes and 'sticks'. When it finally does overcome friction and 'sticktion' (is that what it's called?), it sets off like a bolted horse. You can then slow it down, but it 'stalls' well before acceptable slow speed running.
Third, not really a problem but it seems to be very highly geared for a freight loco. It is incredibly fast - is there any need?
I have run it for 1/2 an hour with no difference. I have put some oil on the gears as per instructions - no difference. When turning the output gear off the motor shaft, you can feel what a 'lumpy' motor it is. The other gears seem quite free.
So being a novice in this hobby could someone answer me the following questions:
1) Should I expect to see improvement after 1/2 hrs running in? Whats the recommended running in time?
2) Do you think it might be the old Dapol 3 pole motor? (the rest is Dapol)
3) Technically it isn't faulty because it runs, so I would assume Hornby wouldn't be prepared to have a look at it?
4) Is there anything I can do to improve it (short of replacing motor), or should I just accept that this loco is a bit of a 'duffer' and just lump it?
It's a shame about it's running quality as it's a nice looking loco. But when compared to my Hornby 47, it really is a dog. The 47 is so smooth and crawls along sleeper by sleeper (straight from the box with no running in)
Any comments appreciated
Paul
I can appreciate the members gripe in connection to the Hornby 56 noise volume while in motion. I have a Fleischmann 614 DMU beautifully constructed and most pleasing to the eye and it ends there too - the motor emits the most irritating noise in either direction and most frustrating is the fact the manufacturers are unable to hear the noise of complaint. A replacement unit, proved this noise to be part of the make up of the 614 DMU.
All my purchases of new diesel locomotives are track run for a period of sixty minutes in each direction at a moderate speed - this test should show up any faults relating to the unit under test.
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All my purchases of new diesel locomotives are track run for a period of sixty minutes in each direction at a moderate speed - this test should show up any faults relating to the unit under test.
Getting back to the Class 56 what type of controller do you have?
My Class 56 is as smooth as any other Hornby loco and definitely no noisier that any of the other Hornby locomotives I have with a ringfield motor.
The real point is motors are built to a manufacturing tolerance and the resistance in one motor can be different to the resistance in another. What you may need is a controller that can compensate for this.
I would highly recommend a Hammant and Morgan Duette analogue controller if you can pick one up secondhand. Good ones go on Ebay for about £25 normally plus shipping and local dealers who have secondhand equipment may have these in stock. That will give you all the fine control that you need. Gaugemaster may well do something which permits you to alter the resistance but I have never needed to research this.
It sounds as if you have a controller with too low a resistance built into it and a control knob with a course graduation. If you increase the resistance then that means that less power is getting to the motor as you turn the control knob giving you a more graduated control and better slow speed running. I have not used the Hornby HM2000 so I cannot comment but I do know that I would never part with my Hammant and Morgan Duette as it gives me this ability to change the resistance at the flick of a switch.
If you do get one you will understand why. They just don't make them like this anymore and you get the control that you need to make sure every loco that you have can pull away realistically.
Doug knows how they perform. He saw how well it handled the Hornby Class 09 Loco while I was playing on his layout. Doug had to admit defeat when he saw that my Duette controller allowed the Class 09 Loco to move more slowly on his layout than setting 1 on his DCC control unit! Although to be fair my memory has faded a bit on this point so Doug may correct me if I am wrong!
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Happy modelling
Gary
My Class 56 is as smooth as any other Hornby loco and definitely no noisier that any of the other Hornby locomotives I have with a ringfield motor.
The real point is motors are built to a manufacturing tolerance and the resistance in one motor can be different to the resistance in another. What you may need is a controller that can compensate for this.
I would highly recommend a Hammant and Morgan Duette analogue controller if you can pick one up secondhand. Good ones go on Ebay for about £25 normally plus shipping and local dealers who have secondhand equipment may have these in stock. That will give you all the fine control that you need. Gaugemaster may well do something which permits you to alter the resistance but I have never needed to research this.
It sounds as if you have a controller with too low a resistance built into it and a control knob with a course graduation. If you increase the resistance then that means that less power is getting to the motor as you turn the control knob giving you a more graduated control and better slow speed running. I have not used the Hornby HM2000 so I cannot comment but I do know that I would never part with my Hammant and Morgan Duette as it gives me this ability to change the resistance at the flick of a switch.
If you do get one you will understand why. They just don't make them like this anymore and you get the control that you need to make sure every loco that you have can pull away realistically.
Doug knows how they perform. He saw how well it handled the Hornby Class 09 Loco while I was playing on his layout. Doug had to admit defeat when he saw that my Duette controller allowed the Class 09 Loco to move more slowly on his layout than setting 1 on his DCC control unit! Although to be fair my memory has faded a bit on this point so Doug may correct me if I am wrong!
Happy modelling
Gary
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Actually, Paul says this.
QUOTE when compared to my Hornby 47, it really is a dog. The 47 is so smooth and crawls along sleeper by sleeper (straight from the box with no running in)
As the 47 runs beautifully on the same controller, I think this conclusively indicates that the fault is not in the controller. He adds that the motor 'feels lumpy' on hand rotation. It actually sounds like maybe a gear-train problem, possibly a motor problem and maybe even both, but clearly not the controller.
QUOTE when compared to my Hornby 47, it really is a dog. The 47 is so smooth and crawls along sleeper by sleeper (straight from the box with no running in)
As the 47 runs beautifully on the same controller, I think this conclusively indicates that the fault is not in the controller. He adds that the motor 'feels lumpy' on hand rotation. It actually sounds like maybe a gear-train problem, possibly a motor problem and maybe even both, but clearly not the controller.
I did take it that the main issue was how it performed relative to the Class 47. My Class 56 performs differently to my Class 47 and my solution works for me.
Paul does make reference to a "lumpy" motor. Not quite sure what is meant by this but motors should not feel lumpy and whilst running in for an hour or so should help if this lumpiness is preventing the loco from operating smoothly then it should be investigated. Maybe something needs lubricating or there could be a sliver of debris within the motor housing. I would not recommend taking the motor housing apart and this should be returned to the dealer or Hornby for examination as it is a new motor. If it was secondhand with no gaurantee then I would recommend taking it apart! What does the motor go like when it is wired up directly to the controller? Is there any noticable sparking in the motor that you can hear? This would indicate debris in the motor.
Paul does say that the loco does operate on his layout and the main issue is that it has little or no slow speed control. This may not be related to the lumpiness. When you test 100's of locomotives a year you will understand that you cannot rule out the controller. Every locomotive has a different feel (even within the same model as there may be production tweaks each year that go unanounced) and the Class 56 may have different gearing to the Class 47 and definitely has a different motor. The Class 56 has lights which draw power so this can affect things. The Class 47 does not. A controller that allows you to change the resistance is a must have if you run a range of locomotives designed over a period of years and one that has a pulse mode is even better.
The fact is the Hornby set controller is hopeless but it does its job which is to get people started.
Noise issue aside, if Paul takes the action I have suggested I gaurantee he will be a happy man!
Happy modelling
Gary
Paul does make reference to a "lumpy" motor. Not quite sure what is meant by this but motors should not feel lumpy and whilst running in for an hour or so should help if this lumpiness is preventing the loco from operating smoothly then it should be investigated. Maybe something needs lubricating or there could be a sliver of debris within the motor housing. I would not recommend taking the motor housing apart and this should be returned to the dealer or Hornby for examination as it is a new motor. If it was secondhand with no gaurantee then I would recommend taking it apart! What does the motor go like when it is wired up directly to the controller? Is there any noticable sparking in the motor that you can hear? This would indicate debris in the motor.
Paul does say that the loco does operate on his layout and the main issue is that it has little or no slow speed control. This may not be related to the lumpiness. When you test 100's of locomotives a year you will understand that you cannot rule out the controller. Every locomotive has a different feel (even within the same model as there may be production tweaks each year that go unanounced) and the Class 56 may have different gearing to the Class 47 and definitely has a different motor. The Class 56 has lights which draw power so this can affect things. The Class 47 does not. A controller that allows you to change the resistance is a must have if you run a range of locomotives designed over a period of years and one that has a pulse mode is even better.
The fact is the Hornby set controller is hopeless but it does its job which is to get people started.
Noise issue aside, if Paul takes the action I have suggested I gaurantee he will be a happy man!
Happy modelling
Gary
QUOTE (Gary @ 17 Dec 2005, 09:36)The fact is the Hornby set controller is hopeless but it does its job which is to get people started.
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Thanks guys, interesting thoughts. Yes I'll admit I am using the basic Hornby set controller. Yes again to the fact that I am just really starting out in this hobby therefore I am 'starting at the bottom' regarding equipement. As I gradually build up knowledge and experience, I will replace as neccessary (this forum is a fantastic way of getting advice).
Slow running capability is more important to me than blasting an HST at high speed round the track, so upgrading the controller seems a valid thing to do 1st. As you say Gary, the expense is quite minimal really, as opposed to DCC (which is in the far distant future).
When I said the motor was 'lumpy', yes it was the magnetic resistance I was feeling, but it just feels so strong between segments, for such a small motor.
Good point Rail-Rider, about the comparison with the 47. Yes it is excellent, so is my 58 (but that has a 7 pole motor), and the new hornby 08 (which we all know is stunning). They all perform excellent with this basic Hornby controller, so I agree that the controller is probably not at fault. But I suppose Gary's suggestion of a better controller might 'improve' the 56, and an improvement in these other loco's as well, can only be a good thing.
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Still think my 56 might be just one those unlucky loco's. A bit of lemon, assembled using components right on their tolerance limit, producing a tolerance stack which results in a mechanism that works, but not that well.
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The postman has just knocked on my door with my new Bachmann 66 in DRS Malcolm Logistics livery. I think the 56 will take a back step for the time being while I drool over this new model.
I will definately upgrade the controller though and see how it goes.
Thanks guys
Paul
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Thanks guys, interesting thoughts. Yes I'll admit I am using the basic Hornby set controller. Yes again to the fact that I am just really starting out in this hobby therefore I am 'starting at the bottom' regarding equipement. As I gradually build up knowledge and experience, I will replace as neccessary (this forum is a fantastic way of getting advice).
Slow running capability is more important to me than blasting an HST at high speed round the track, so upgrading the controller seems a valid thing to do 1st. As you say Gary, the expense is quite minimal really, as opposed to DCC (which is in the far distant future).
When I said the motor was 'lumpy', yes it was the magnetic resistance I was feeling, but it just feels so strong between segments, for such a small motor.
Good point Rail-Rider, about the comparison with the 47. Yes it is excellent, so is my 58 (but that has a 7 pole motor), and the new hornby 08 (which we all know is stunning). They all perform excellent with this basic Hornby controller, so I agree that the controller is probably not at fault. But I suppose Gary's suggestion of a better controller might 'improve' the 56, and an improvement in these other loco's as well, can only be a good thing.
Still think my 56 might be just one those unlucky loco's. A bit of lemon, assembled using components right on their tolerance limit, producing a tolerance stack which results in a mechanism that works, but not that well.
I will definately upgrade the controller though and see how it goes.
Thanks guys
Paul
It does say "Type 7" in the Hornby catalogue. This is probably what is meant.
The Class 58 is a 3 pole motor and I have these models aswell!
Now my Class 56 is a marginally better performer than my Class 58 and the Class 58 is noisier.
These are all the Hornby lower priced vintage models in the range of course.
It has to be said that the new generation of Hornby diesels (Class 50, Class 31 and Class 08) are stunning performers by comparison. And the Class 60 no doubt will be when it is released shortly.
However, getting back to controllers, the right controller can help to even things up a bit between the old and new generation Hornby.
Happy modelling
Gary
The Class 58 is a 3 pole motor and I have these models aswell!
Now my Class 56 is a marginally better performer than my Class 58 and the Class 58 is noisier.
These are all the Hornby lower priced vintage models in the range of course.
It has to be said that the new generation of Hornby diesels (Class 50, Class 31 and Class 08) are stunning performers by comparison. And the Class 60 no doubt will be when it is released shortly.
However, getting back to controllers, the right controller can help to even things up a bit between the old and new generation Hornby.
Happy modelling
Gary
QUOTE (DS239 @ 17 Dec 2005, 20:14)Blimey!-7-pole,eh!,have you re-motored it?
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The standard Hornby one is fitted with their basic 3-pole disposable job (part M1799)-so a conversion would be interesting.
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Sorry I meant to say the 'Type 7' M motor.
The standard Hornby one is fitted with their basic 3-pole disposable job (part M1799)-so a conversion would be interesting.
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Sorry I meant to say the 'Type 7' M motor.
The thing is its Xmas and everybody is getting new train set and wants a proper controller!
And visitors to Model Rail Forum have probably read this thread!
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Summer is a better time for this sort of thing. Can anybody think of any alternatives to a Duette?
It looks like I am not the only one who is a fan:-
http://www.metromodels.net/controllers.htm
Gaugemaster do feedback controllers and these are said to give good slow speed running but I have no experience with these.
Happy modelling
Gary
And visitors to Model Rail Forum have probably read this thread!
Summer is a better time for this sort of thing. Can anybody think of any alternatives to a Duette?
It looks like I am not the only one who is a fan:-
http://www.metromodels.net/controllers.htm
Gaugemaster do feedback controllers and these are said to give good slow speed running but I have no experience with these.
Happy modelling
Gary
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