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Just noticed that the first of the new Hornby Class 66's is out. It uses the former Lima tooling. I'm never likely to get a Class 66 of any description as its too modern for me (maybe in 40 years time perhaps!
) . Any thoughts given that Bachmann's example generally retails for about £10 more?

Ok it is inevitable that the diehard modeller will write the Hornby version off immediately! The Bachmann example is a very good model and lets face it Hornby were never out to create a better model at this moment in time.

Remember though that Hornby are unlikely to replicate loco numbers already produced by Bachmann.

I have a sneeky feeling that the Hornby version may be in need of traction tyres if its planned to run prototypical length trains although I may be wrong here. It should be remembered though that the typical Hornby customer with a 6ft x 4ft layout is not going to run protypical length trains and that it is likely that the Hornby version will be the more bullet proof for the younger members of the family to operate and with easier coupling due to its wide Lima style coupling hooks. It will sell as the Hornby model will have an appeal. If it had came in for under £50 retail then even the diehard modeller might have taken a sneeky look!

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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It's quite possible it will have traction tyres - it'll be interesting to see.

The R2578A green Class 101 that I just bought for my Dad did have them... (is this a change from the first batch of Class 101s?)

Mike D
 

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Has the Hormby 66 got lights has it got 6 axcel drive has it got the performance?

Probably not and it will possibly be as bad a performer as the 121 and Pendos.

So no compertition really.

Pete
 

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QUOTE Has the Hormby 66 got lights has it got 6 axcel drive has it got the performance?

Probably not and it will possibly be as bad a performer as the 121 and Pendos.

I must protest . This is most unfair to the Pendolino and the 121 . Someone on another forum has got hold of the extra coaches and built it up to a 9 car rake , and the motor car moves it ok on the flat. The 121 will move an authentic scale length formation (1 car)

Recycling the Lima 66 with a motor bogie that won't pull the skin off a rice pudding in the face of one of Bachmann's best efforts which retails for a couple of quid more is Hornby's worst British commercial decision of the year

I'll defend the 156, I'm happy to say that we're better off with the Pendo than without it and that the performance is by no means as bad as suggested . I'll even say that with some extra weight a 73 can be made a useful satisfactory loco

But we really could have done without this 66. Anyone thinking of buying one should do 2 things immediately:

- Seek psyciatric assistance
- Order a modern , high spec 66 with a proper mechanism , as made by Bachmann, and available from Hattons for £55-£60

At that price for a proper modern model , there's no place for a piece of recycled Lima 1990s mediocrity, riddled with minor detail errors and fitted with one of the most ineffective mechanisms ever used on a OO loco (Yep , on all available info it's worse than a 58 : and Type 5s are heavy haulers. DMUs aren't)

If you're that desperate for EWS livery buy the DCC sound one, or check ebay or get someone to do a respray
 

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QUOTE Has the Hormby 66 got lights has it got 6 axcel drive has it got the performance?

Probably not and it will possibly be as bad a performer as the 121 and Pendos.

QUOTE I must protest . This is most unfair to the Pendolino and the 121 . Someone on another forum has got hold of the extra coaches and built it up to a 9 car rake , and the motor car moves it ok on the flat. The 121 will move an authentic scale length formation (1 car)

Its important that modellers report on models that they have actually purchased or at least had a chance to run themselves before making such remarks. There could be any number of issues unrelated to the loco that could affect performance. Forums are a good place to seek help if modellers are having performance issues.

It just goes to show how a few missguided remarks on the web can influence the thinking of those who read the information.

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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QUOTE (Gary @ 12 Jul 2007, 20:47) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It just goes to show how a few missguided remarks on the web can influence the thinking of those who read the information.
True Gary, but those remarks are most likely to be yours! I agree 100% with everything Ravenser has said. And besides you pointed out in the first post that it is based on the undead Lima tooling (lurching back from the cemetry) so we have seen and suffered it before and the same criticisms will apply even before it crawls into town.

Why Saint Hornby didn't do something new who can tell...they are very keen on raising the dead at the moment - although the International wing has been missing limbs off some of the Arnold zombies of late...

Goedel
 

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QUOTE And besides you pointed out in the first post that it is based on the undead Lima tooling (lurching back from the cemetry) so we have seen and suffered it before and the same criticisms will apply even before it crawls into town.

No actually entirely true. It has a new five pole motor and improved pick up and is DCC ready. Is the Bachmann version running a 3 pole motor?

QUOTE True Gary, but those remarks are most likely to be yours!

I try and keep things constructive. If a model really is a below average performer and has a clear fault then at all times I always suggest that the model is returned and exchanged. Its pointless hanging on to a model that you are unhappy with that has a clear fault and is not acting normally.

In terms of the Hornby Class 66 traction tyres and additional weight relative to early Hornby/Lima releases could make a lot of difference so lets see how it stacks up when we start reading running reports.

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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QUOTE (Gary @ 12 Jul 2007, 20:47) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Its important that modellers report on models that they have actually purchased or at least had a chance to run themselves before making such remarks.
Happy modelling
Gary

Where are the "reports" that your are so concerned about - a couple of questions & predictions is just about all I can see - & in all probability correct regarding the performance - any bets ?
 

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There is a minor discussion around remarks made in an earlier post in this thread where reference is made to the 121 and Pendo which are seen as a little unfair.

One thing that does concern me is that there is a report that Hornby/Lima models are running with 3 pole motors and not the 5 pole as stated in the catalogue and on the Hornby website. Would anybody like to provide a definitive answer on this?


Happy modelling
Gary
 

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If Vi released a class 66 to the same standard as there class 37 and I had to choose between the Vi 66 and the Horby 66, Vi would get my purchase because Vi listen to there customers the public and can deliver the goods.

Hornby lust listen to there Share Holders and accountants that say the can make more profit by gutting corners on tooling and not producing fully compatible products.

Hornby have repeatedly disappointed a lot of people with some of there recent products and have not done them self any favours.

Lowering the standard of a lot of there latest models just to cut costs, inaccuracy's in reproducing in model form things that would not been allowed only a several of years ago by the Hornby design staff for the only reason that "the real thing is not like that" recreating an accurate model is not in Hornby's plans just Items that they can make cheaply and sell at a high price to make a high prophet is.

Pete
 

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QUOTE (Peter_Harvey @ 13 Jul 2007, 07:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If Vi released a class 66 to the same standard as there class 37 and I had to choose between the Vi 66 and the Horby 66, Vi would get my purchase because Vi listen to there customers the public and can deliver the goods.

Hornby lust listen to there Share Holders and accountants that say the can make more profit by gutting corners on tooling and not producing fully compatible products.

Hornby have repeatedly disappointed a lot of people with some of there recent products and have not done them self any favours.

Lowering the standard of a lot of there latest models just to cut costs, inaccuracy's in reproducing in model form things that would not been allowed only a several of years ago by the Hornby design staff for the only reason that "the real thing is not like that" recreating an accurate model is not in Hornby's plans just Items that they can make cheaply and sell at a high price to make a high prophet is.

Pete
You know, I would agree with all of that. It is the share holders that are pulling their chain.

QUOTE I must protest . This is most unfair to the Pendolino and the 121 . Someone on another forum has got hold of the extra coaches and built it up to a 9 car rake , and the motor car moves it ok on the flat Disagree with this in regard to the Pendo. I actually own the Pendo so I can't be fobbed off with this. While some individual has got it going on the level, there is no way it is going to get up any slope with nine coaches. My, and many other modellers, layouts are not flat and require something with a bit of oomph to get it up gradients. I am buying my extra coaches one by one as I learned my lesson with the GNER 225 and do not intend to be left with extra coaches that the model can't pull.

If this Class 66 is an ex Lima I would be reluctant to touch it. Besides the Bachmann offering has sound and I've already ordered one. However as Gary says for the modern modeller it does offer new livery and running numbers so there is a potential market.
 

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Any model railway/railroad firm that has to resort to fitting traction tyres on, so the loco can pull more than itself around is so far behind the times, it is in-excusable.
Reasonable motors & pickups , good weighting & problems are solved.
Yes one may pay #5-15 dearer than locos with traction tyres, etc but I am sure most would be prepared to do that to get better running - I know I would.
 

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I'll see Peter down the club later!


QUOTE If Vi released a class 66 to the same standard as there class 37 and I had to choose between the Vi 66 and the Horby 66, Vi would get my purchase because Vi listen to there customers the public and can deliver the goods.

If a ViTrains Class 66 had the same running qualities as a ViTrains 37 I would be very happy however there are those who would not be. You cannot please all of the people all of the time. ViTrains have to date released one British outline product.

QUOTE Hornby lust listen to there Share Holders and accountants that say the can make more profit by gutting corners on tooling and not producing fully compatible products.

Hornby will release over 1000 British outline products this year. Hornby staff who read this remark will be highly offended. Neil. You have spoken with Simon Kohler in Australia. You should know better than to agree with such comment.

QUOTE Hornby have repeatedly disappointed a lot of people with some of there recent products and have not done them self any favours.

They have satisfied a huge number of customers. Given that the number of satisfied customers who provide repeat custom likely runs into the hundreds of thousands this comment is questionable. Hornby are never going to satisfy those who want Rolls Royce hand crafted type products and who are prepared to pay the price. That is not their market.

QUOTE Lowering the standard of a lot of there latest models just to cut costs, inaccuracy's in reproducing in model form things that would not been allowed only a several of years ago by the Hornby design staff for the only reason that "the real thing is not like that" recreating an accurate model is not in Hornby's plans just Items that they can make cheaply and sell at a high price to make a high prophet is.

You are not talking about the King Arthurs, the Class 60, the M7, the Q1 and all there newly designed models created in the lats 10 years surely! The Pendo was designed from the outset to be a train set model and there is broad agreement that it is much better than Dapols effort.

If you are talking about the ex Lima models then they have been improved where possible within the constraints set by using the Lima moulds. The former Lima models used traction tyres and Hornby may have made a mistake not doing the same with these models.

QUOTE Any model railway/railroad firm that has to resort to fitting traction tyres on, so the loco can pull more than itself around is so far behind the times, it is in-excusable.

Marklin models have traction tyres. ViTrains models have traction tyre. And so on. This traction tyre sensitivity seems to be a uniquely British/Australian issue that does not concern Americans or Mainland Europeans.

Happy modelling
Gary

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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Gary, Australian locos have NOT had traction tyres for many years since Lima left & the Australian models now made in China are using what is really a standard for diesels - centally mounted 5 pole skew wound motor with flywheels - all wheel drive & pickup. Even steam locos are first class

So if USA & Australia & Bachmann UK do not need traction tyres, I see no reason why the other manufacturers have to use them - can you?

Aust diesels sell for about £100 - yes dearer than UK diesels but we have a lot less modellers than the UK so the selling range is less.

Your comment "They have satisfied a huge number of customers. Given that the number of satisfied customers who provide repeat business likely runs into the hundreds of thousands this comment is questionable."
Yes no doubt Hornby have sold a lot but are the customers satisfied - are they aware that there are better locos around? Possibly not ! They maybe table top runners of trains which are a different breed to modellers - in my opinion.
 

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I would also add that Hornby attend a large number of exhibitions and have roadshows around the country. They probably give between 50 to 100 thousand customers the opportunity to talk with them directly throughout the year. Compare this with the relatively small and anonymous numbers that particpate in internet forums.

Now I am not accusing anybody so don't take this the wrong way but for all we know we could have a Bachmann or Hornby mole or whoever seeding messages and vice versa as could a number of forums. The fact is becuase of anonymity nobody knows however there are devious folk out their who would take advantage of this type of opportunity that the internet offers to stir things up.

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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Gary, you maybe right about moles but not me mate - well not thsi time - they have not approached me to be one.

My concern is why do Hornby not maintain the standards they have already set - look at the Class 31 for example. Standard type drive - all wheel & pickup - no need of traction tyres. Why the hurry to reintroduce ex-Lima locos that are not to the same standard.? But at least Hornby when they fit NEM pockets are to the same height - not like Bachmann with there variances.

Now NEM is another topic which I will start up.
 

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QUOTE Hornby will release over 1000 British outline products this year. Hornby staff who read this remark will be highly offended. Neil. You have spoken with Simon Kohler in Australia. You should know better than to agree with such comment.

Gary, at the end of the day Hornby are running a business and they do this very well. Getting a return for their shareholders is a major part of this. This is why Hornby have not had the financial problems that many European companies have had. I do beleive from recent purchases that corners have been cut on some models to increase return. This may be temporary as it is not something that I have noticed in previous years but it is probably for economic reasons as I can see no other.
 

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QUOTE My concern is why do Hornby not maintain the standards they have already set - look at the Class 31 for example. Standard type drive - all wheel & pickup - no need of traction tyres. Why the hurry to reintroduce ex-Lima locos that are not to the same standard.?

There is little argument that Bachmann have released models for adults of consistent standard and Hornby have released models for adults whose standard is variant. Hornby claim to have only released former Lima models which they feel are acceptable to todays modellers. Hornby do not pretend that they are top of the range and the price at which the former Lima models are offered reflects this.

It cannot be denied that it is a little odd that former Lima models have a better hauling capacity than their recent Hornby reincarnations. It would surprise me if Hornby were happy with this situation! Let us hope that Hornby were not influenced by the "do not fit traction tyres under any circumstances" mentality rather than one of being practical about things. The moment that Hornby are influenced by what is fashionable rather than what is practical is the moment that their models are doomed!

The former Lima models did have traction tyres. It is definitely a bridge too far to expect the same model without traction tyres to have the same hauling capacity.

I suspect that the major retooling required to the Lima chassis to bring the former Lima models up to a standard where they don't need traction tyres is deemed not worthwhile by Hornby. If this is the case they should have stuck with the tried and tested formula and used traction tyres!

We are surely all in agreement though that many of the former Lima models are welcome additions to the Hornby range.

Or are we?


Happy modelling
Gary

PS On the fashion thing tender drive was fashionable once so Hornby developed tender drive. This did absolutely nothing for me even though the models did perform well. "Stick with the tried and tested and ignore fashion" should be the motto of any company to keep their customers happy!
 

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"We are surely all in agreement though that many of the former Lima models are welcome additions to the Hornby range."

Well I certainly don't agree if the mechanisms,etc , are not to the same standard as other locos from the same shop - Hornby - irrespective of the original locos parentage

If Australian diesels with far less market availability than the UK can do without traction tyres - why do UK persist with them. As Neil said - "economics " - bean counters strike again!!
 
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