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I am creating a layout that reflects the LMS in late 50's early 60's. I would like to have a Fowler 4F as part of the layout, along with the usual Black 5's and the like. To date th eonly one I have found is the Hornby R2545, albeit that I have not yet found a supplier.

I have a few concerns even if I could locate one of these loco's. I use Pecocode 75 and as the R2545 is an old model am concerned that it may not run. Also, the only review I've been able to locate suggests that this Hornby model's drive is both rough and noisy!

Does anyone know of another model (even kit to build) or have any other suggestions on how to proceed?
 

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I think the wheels on the Hornby should be fine. If you're interested in a kit, Brassmasters do one (link). You can even make up the inside motion if you feel so inclined...

David
 

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The Fowler 4F is not particularly 'old' by Hornby standards, and the wheel profile is the same, or close to, the present models. The main problem with current Hornby production (in my opinion!) is that a loco gets made for a year or two and then they move on to other locos. If you look at Pat Hammond's "The Story of Rovex" (all three volumes) many locos were made for decades before being dropped or a refined version being introduced.

It's worth looking at model railway exhibitions, toy fairs and the like for either dealers with older items in stock or someone disposing of a second-hand loco.

Regards,
John Webb
 

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My suggestion for a different way to proceed. Model an area of the LMR where the Ivatt 4F 2-6-0 (which was the LMS replacement for the 0-6-0 4F) dominated; then you can have the very neat Bachmann model, instead of Hornby's dated tender drive item.
 

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Paul Hamilton aka "Lancashire Fusilier"
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Just in case, South East Finecast do a nice 4F kit as do Brassmasters. I have the Finecast with new chassis kit and Richard Johnson has several of the Brassmasters versions.

A prgmatic solution is to get the Bill Bedford chassis replacement for the Hornby body and eliminate the issue of the tender drive completely while not having to totally build an entire kit.
 

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I've tried various options for the Fowler 4F. Both the old Airfix and the newer Hornby 4F work fine on Peco finescale track - I've about four on my layout.
The Airfix ones can often be picked up cheaply and are often (but not always) surprisingly good runners. The Hornby one is visually better because of darkened wheels.

One option I've used is to replace the chassis with one from Comet Models with Romford wheels and, in my case, an RG4 motor.

A much cheaper option is to convert one of the tender wheel sets so that it has metal wheels. This sounds hard but isn't. Remove the chassis cover by unscrewing the two screws. Then remove the rear axle from the tender and pull off both the plastic wheels. One wheel has the gear wheel moulded on the back. Carefully saw this off the back of the wheel using a razor saw - Exacto (I think) make one. Now take a Romford 14mm disc wheelset and remove the wheels from the axle. These have plastic insulation bushes - give these a bit of a squash with a pair of bull nose pliers to compress the plastic a bit. Now slide the gear wheel onto the tender axle - it might be a little loose but don't worry. Now file the plastic bush on the rear of the wheel flush with the metal and slide the wheel onto the axle. A drop of superglue on the rear of the wheel and axle will hold the gear wheel firmly onto this wheels. Finally, fit the other metal wheel and gauge using a back to back gauge. Now replace the axle into the chassis and fit the cover back in place in place.

Now you need to fit some pickup wires. It's possible to use the rear cover screw to hold a washer and a piece of springy wire - nickel silver or brass - which bears on the back of one wheel. Join this to the correct terminal with insulated wire. For the other side of the chassis I secure a length of paxolin copper clad sleeper strip to the plastic motor casing with epoxy resin - araldite - and then solder another length of wire which presses down on the top of the wheel tread. Link the copper clad to the motor terminal.

The effect of this simple modification is to increase the length of the loco which picks up current. The only downside is that the loco's traction is slightly reduced as the rear tender axle doesn't have traction tyres anymore.

I've put some photos of the modifications I've done to Airfix/Hornby tender drives on my website. These are for my S Scale models but the principals are much the same, and may give you some other ideas. You'll need to click on the link to tender drive units.
Visit My Website
 

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Paul Hamilton aka "Lancashire Fusilier"
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Good info there Steve thanks for that. I am going to do the first suggestion regarding a Comet chassis and in my case a Mashima 1620. Just waiting for an eBay bid to come off on a 4F. I am simply not a fan of the tender drives. I have the Hornby 2P as well and it looks ok when running with a rake of coaches but slow running is obvious that the tender is shunting the loco forward.

On a related Hornby Fowler 4F topic, was there ever in the modelling press, when Hornby released the old Dapol/Airfix model, an article showing detailing additions and improvements, which are so popular now in the modelling press?
 

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I have been through the 4F saga. The Airfix unit was quite good but kept de railing. I then bought a Hornby 4F which again was not a lot better. I really dislike tender drive and have cleared them all out. They pull well but thats about it
I set about looking for an alternative and looked at the Bachmann 3F jinty chassis which turned out to be not suitable.
I then looked at the Bachmann Collett and this fitted the body with loads of room for a DCC chip so I bought one off E Bay.
Its a good fit with a little "tweaking" and only the front wheel guard is not directly over the wheel. I took out the tender motor and all went back together fine.I now have a smooth running Hornby/Bachmann hy brid theat is quiet and runs a treat,
Hope this may give you an alternative to consider
 

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Paul Hamilton aka "Lancashire Fusilier"
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QUOTE (Lancashire Fusilier @ 6 Mar 2009, 06:40) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>....On a related Hornby Fowler 4F topic, was there ever in the modelling press, when Hornby released the old Dapol/Airfix model, an article showing detailing additions and improvements, which are so popular now in the modelling press?

Just bumping this question


How does one find out whether an article on the Fowler 4F detailing was ever in any given publication?
 

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I have had an Airfix 4F for about 25 years, it is tender driven , still runs well and will pull a house down. It rarely derails even on the smallest radius bends. The tender drive is no problem unless you want wheel slip.
 

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Just another modeller
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***The problem is (Hornby or Airfix or whatever) its that is is not a very good model of a 4F!. The tender should be replaced at least and there is a lot of small error and detail okission on the body. Its well past "new one needed" for this loco.

There is an excellent kit from Brassmasters, and other less complex options from others in kit form.

If U must use the hornby as a basis then the best chassis upgrades are either Comet (simple and a bit basic but reasonable) and Bill Bedford (super good, basically a P4/EM design that can be bilt for OO).

Paul: Re detailing the 4F, you need to define the loco you want. there are several variants with body detail differences, different domes / chimneys / tenders /RH drive or LH drive / dome rivetted or flush rivetted buffer beam etc etc etc... both the when and where and also which number are issues.... even "snow plough fitted" if it was a hellifield/ S&C loco.

I have loads of data but first "which loco"!!

Richard
 

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QUOTE (Lancashire Fusilier @ 5 Mar 2009, 22:40) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>On a related Hornby Fowler 4F topic, was there ever in the modelling press, when Hornby released the old Dapol/Airfix model, an article showing detailing additions and improvements, which are so popular now in the modelling press?

Model Rail, Issue 37 (About Nov/Dec 2001 I think) did the 4F as one of their 'Masterclass' series- ought to give a few pointers at least

As Richard says, bearing in mind we're looking at a class of loco 700+ in number, built over a period of 30 years by two railway companies and several outside contractors, they can be a bit of a minefield to get right if you're going to start detailing /converting the Hornby model...

I'd start by finding pictures of a particular loco you want to model, in the period you're interested, then work out which specific variations it has, and work from there.

There was an Ian Allen 'Locomotive Profile' magazine devoted to the 4F, but that must be close to 25-30 years ago- I don't recall the number of the issue, otherwise the various books by Essery & Jenkinson on LMS locomotives are going to be a useful starting place
 

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I also have a Airfix 4F since 1986 and a Hornby 4F Ref. R2066 which I bought on ebay last year. Both run very well on Peco Steamline, never any trouble with derailments. I must admit tender driven locos are a thing of the past though. These two locos are now the only tender driven one's that I have amongst a stud of 80 locos.
 

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I have not counted the rivets on my Airfix 4f so it may not be an exact model, if I ever get to that sort of detail then I will stop railway modelling and find something else. My locomotives are there to run and pull trains, if they do then I have no problem. Minor detail is just too time consuming.
 

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Who said anything about the rivet count being wrong


David
 

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Paul Hamilton aka &quot;Lancashire Fusilier&quot;
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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 11 Mar 2009, 10:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Paul: Re detailing the 4F, you need to define the loco you want. there are several variants with body detail differences, different domes / chimneys / tenders /RH drive or LH drive / dome rivetted or flush rivetted buffer beam etc etc etc... both the when and where and also which number are issues.... even "snow plough fitted" if it was a hellifield/ S&C loco.

I have loads of data but first "which loco"!!

This has been difficult to nail down Richard. I am keen on a Peak District visitor, particularly a Matlock Bath or similar traveller. The nearest shed was at Rowsley I believe however I don't see allocations of 4Fs there until much later than the time frame I am looking to represent ie early LMS just post grouping when the 4Fs were still very Fowler like, chimney details and all that. The one that springs to mind is the 4F that appears on the front of Nicholson's Book on Railways in the Peak District and shows the 4F exiting the tunnel at High Tor. That would do me for a start. But I believe it is a BR period loco not an LMS

QUOTE (Invicta @ 11 Mar 2009, 23:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Model Rail, Issue 37 (About Nov/Dec 2001 I think) did the 4F as one of their 'Masterclass' series- ought to give a few pointers at least

Thanks for that information. Exactly what I was after. The Hornby would be a simple filler model until my kitbuilt (Wills) is completed and I then move on to a Brassmaster's version. I thought a detailing job on the RTR version may be an expeditious way to get on with a reasonable 4F on the layout. Cheap exercise at least to have a play.

QUOTE (patrick draper @ 12 Mar 2009, 01:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have not counted the rivets on my Airfix 4f so it may not be an exact model, if I ever get to that sort of detail then I will stop railway modelling and find something else. My locomotives are there to run and pull trains, if they do then I have no problem. Minor detail is just too time consuming.

Unsure what the message is in this post Patrick. For those of us who details are important, this forum allows the exchange of ideas that relate to this aspect of the hobby. For those who this is not of interest they can read the thread if they like and move on. I don't belittle those who don't subscribe to the same level of concern over the details as I do and appreciate a similar level of courtesy in return thanks. Constructive comments are welcome - broad sweeping generalisations like your last line I find are of little value.

Opinions are like arm pits I have discovered. Everyone has them and they usually stink a bit too!
 

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***As I have said often, real modellers never count rivets, they just notice when they are missing.

Patrick, I really don't mind or care at all whether you are worried about detail or not.... nor do I think you should change if you do not want to... nor do I imply any criticism of you those who run models out of the box.

The fact is that many modellers do evolve and grow to like getting it right and adding to the quality of what is available off the shelf.... and in this case as all others where I bother to respond in a similar way, it simply happens that I (and subsequently DWB) replied to a post from a modeller who DOES care about relevant detail, with quite relevant information.

... so you'll give up the hobby if detail becomes an issue?

That is your choice but its a truly silly statement, because nobody will ever be bothered to force you to adopt a finer scale approach - we are all too busy enjoying the hobby in our own way.... and our way is only for volunteers who enjoy it

... But don't expect us to dumb down the online MRF responses to make you happy.... If you have no interest, then surely its sensible to simply stay mute!

Most of us also start out with out of the box models, and some of us then find we enjoy modelling to a more accurate level. That is also our choice and we really don't mind one little bit that you or others see it differently, but we certainly don't need this sort of pettyness every time detail is mentioned.

What is it with some "out of the box modellers" that they bridle and protest any time anyone mentions accuracy or detail related issues... do you feel inadequate or threatened or what?

I put it to you that those who bridle at adding detail are even worse than the leather armpatch armchair-modeller brigade who waffle on and were the cause of the "rivet counter" expression...

Regards

Richard

QUOTE (patrick draper @ 12 Mar 2009, 02:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have not counted the rivets on my Airfix 4f so it may not be an exact model, if I ever get to that sort of detail then I will stop railway modelling and find something else. My locomotives are there to run and pull trains, if they do then I have no problem. Minor detail is just too time consuming.
 

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My comments were a personal opinion and a reflection on my approach to railway modelling, I have done this now for over 50 years. It was not intended to belittle or pour scorn on those who wish to take it to a higher level of detail. In fact if you read some of my past replies I have praised the eforts of some modellers and said it was a standard to aspire to. The original thread was about the 4f, to which I replied and gave the experience I have had with mine.
I can enjoy looking at the efforts of many of the modellers and would not be so bold as to say that they are wasting their time. As stated I do not have the time but do have a large railway that has all the functioning facilities and is fun to run.
 
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