[Guest]

Bit disappointed to see that the GNER R2612 train pack is using the old Hornby power car mouldings, not the Lima versions as hoped. Pictures of the pack are now on a couple of dealers websites. I guess we can only hope that the reason for this is investment in a newly-tooled power car, rather than tweaking the Lima one?

 

[rb277170]

QUOTE (Guest_Paul_* @ 10 Sep 2007, 12:32) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Bit disappointed to see that the GNER R2612 train pack is using the old Hornby power car mouldings, not the Lima versions as hoped. Pictures of the pack are now on a couple of dealers websites. I guess we can only hope that the reason for this is investment in a newly-tooled power car, rather than tweaking the Lima one?

They are probably saving money by churning out the old model rather than revamped LIMA one. Not a sign Hornby bringing one out, just a sign of greed!

Personally I hope for a ViTrains class 43 powercar and dummy to shake things up a bit . There's certainly plenty of liveries to choose from and a Class 43 made to the same standard as their 37 and same pricing benchmark would go down very well!

Russell

 

[ozwarrior]

QUOTE (rb277170 @ 11 Sep 2007, 05:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>They are probably saving money by churning out the old model rather than revamped LIMA one. Not a sign Hornby bringing one out, just a sign of greed!
Russell

Another positive Hornby message from Russell.

On Pat Hammonds MRE mag site today he mentions that Hornby found out the Lima tooling was seriously damaged. Rather than lose a production slot at Sanda Kan they reverted to the Hornby tools. He was not able to say whether the tools were repairable; we'll just have to wait and see won't we?

 

[rb277170]

Whilst not wishing to criticise our beloved Hornby its a bit convenient the tools are suddenly damaged. Did they not look at them prior to announcing they were going to use the LIMA tooling- might have seemed like a good idea to me!

So 2 points of view

a) They are saving money (therefore increasing margin) by churning out the old model- which will be bought by little Johnny regardless

b)They are tooling up a new one for 2008 and at the same time announce Digital Sound (as its Hornby I'm not sure they can call it DCC)

Actually it could be both

Russell

 

[DriverSam]

So the far better Lima toolings for the power cars have been 'damaged' in Hornby's hands? - Mmm.
If this is so, then it represents yet another botch-up in the whole Hornby HST saga which has run right from the beginning.
The faults with the Hornby Power Cars are well known (missing rear coupling beam, poor fitting headlight lenses, badly moulded cab and some ficticious detail etc, etc). It is also common knowledge that the Lima version, although still not completely accurate, was still way better than Hornby's.
This latest HST mess-up from Hornby is a real disappointment.
I really hope another manufacturerer steps in and cleans up with a better model and will treat our famous and iconic High Speed Train with a lot more respect. It seems like Hornby hate this train.
Hornby's scale length Mk3 coaches were an improvement over Lima's but Hornby's cock-ups and lack of attention to detail have meant mistakes and inconsistencies with liveries.

For example their First Great Western 'Barbie' livery:
#Different shades of blue on the coaches. Hornby's later releases are darker.
#Windows painted blue on corridor side of buffet car. Why? They should be clear.
#Buffet car should only have 'doors open' orange lights on the seating end, not both ends.
#Long awaited TGS coach fiasco finally arrives - and disappoints. We are fobbed off with an ex-Lima model.
#Power Cars should have black around the windscreen. Hornby left it off.
#Power Cars cab window frames should be same colour as body. Why then did Hornby decide to paint them silver?
#Inconsistent hieght of the pink stripe above the coach windows.

British Rail 'Inter-City 125' livery:
#The Train Pack coaches have data panels missing on the coach ends. Yet they are printed on the separately available coaches.
#First class seats should be orange not blue. Hornby could have used the orange seats they put in their Virgin liveried coaches for this.
#The blue, yellow and red stripes above the coach windows are too thick.

#The ex-Lima TGS coach is inconsistent and does not match the rest of Hornby's coaches for this set for the following several reasons:
#The roof is a different shade.
#The seats are the wrong colour, they should be blue. Why have Hornby moulded them white?!
#The toilet windws are upside down.
#The grey part of the livery should wrap around the doors.
#The connecting doors have been painted (the wrong colour!!) when all the other coaches were left black!

British Rail INTERCITY 'swallow' livery: (this year's release from Hornby)
#There is a Train Pack and additional coaches are available separately. So why are these additional coaches numbered as loco-hauled Mk3 stock instead of HST Mk3 stock?
#Again, wrong colour seats. I can only remember INTERCITY 'swallow' livery coaches having red seats for "2nd class and a sort of pink for 1st class. If Hornby did them all red it would have been far better than the blue they have incorrectly released.

I really can't be bothered to go on with the rest of Hornby's mistakes with the other HST liveries.

In general though:
#HST coaches were not built with buffers fitted. The only vehicles that do have buffers have had them fitted because of a specific conversion for another purpose.
So why do Hornby persist in fitting them on all their HST coaches?

30 years is plenty of time to do some research on this train. It is a famous train, instantly recognisable and loved by the travelling public. A British design icon still looking good in front line service after all these years. A truly revolutionary train.
A shame then that our own home grown model railway manufacturer doesn't seem to care much for it.

A new HST model from somebody else please!!!
Even if you only do the Power Cars, anything would be better than what we have now.

 

[rb277170]

Spot on Driver Sam! Hornby been making money churning out this toy since 1977. 30 years- the mould must have paid for itself many times over!

Time to let someone else have a go.

If Jouef could have a go producing a 40 and Mk3 coaches in the 70s (what a strange choice!) maybe ViTrains could have a go with a powercar and a Mk3 representing 1st and 2nd class coaches. They produce some quite nice looking MUs so this is maybe not such a tall order for them.

Russell

 

[DriverSam]

The Jouef Mk3 coaches were actualy based on the loco-hauled Mk3 stock.
The main visual differences between the Loco-hauled Mk3 and HST Mk3 coaches are:
#BR Inter-City blue/grey: The grey part of the livery does not wrap around the doors on loco-hauled Mk3 stock. On HST Mk3 stock, it does.
#Loco-hauled Mk3 coaches have buffers. HST Mk3 coaches do not.
#Loco-hauled Mk3 coaches have 3 raised pods at each end on the roof. HST Mk3 coaches have a single raised square pod at each end on the roof.
#Loco-hauled Mk3 coaches have socket recesses and hand-rails on the ends and sometimes built-in tail lights. HST Mk3 coaches do not.

I like the Jouef coaches. The only real niggles were the mould lines separating the blue and grey colours and the lack of flush glazing in the toilet windows. They could have done with more weight aswell. The separately moulded corridor end connections were good and sat well in the correctly portryed recess. Lima missed this recess off their HST Mk3 coaches and Power Cars, as did Hornby although they correctly featured it in their later scale length coaches.

Hornby can get things looking good when they can be bothered. Its just a shame that the HST has been lumbered with the 'Timmy Train-Set' treatment for the last 30 years with so many silly faults on just about every livery Hornby have ever released.
This is why I wish someone else would have a go. Hornby can keep their 'Timmy Train-Set' version and put it in a junior budget range. (By the way Hornby, why do you recommend nearly £60 pounds (!) for such basic budget models when highly detailed versions from other manufacturers cost less?! Your ancient Class 37 diesel loco is a prime example. I wouldn't give £6 for it never mind £60!). Their HST model has been so riddled with mistakes over the years that I really wouldn't trust them at all with a new tooling. It seems they are simply not interested in consistancy or accuracy at all with this model.
Slightly hypocritical for a company that boats about 'Putting The Detail Back Into Models'. How long will that take then? Another 30 years?
How about 'Putting Realistic Prices On Basic Budget Models That have Been Around For Decades And Have Made Their Money Many Times Over'?!
Or how about making a clear definition between 'toy' and 'model' and pricing accordingly. Myself, and I would guess many other modellers do not want to fork out scale model prices for basic old toys.

Although Hornby's treatment of the HST deserves every bit of all the slating it gets as far as 'modelling' goes, in it's defence it was only originally a kid's toy. The problem is that it has suffered from Hornby mixing basic kid's toys with serious models in the same range. These basic older toys are outrageously priced for what they are, because they are dressed up and packaged as models.
This is why Hornby's HST should stay in a junior range and somebody else should have a go - particularly with the Power Cars - and a proper range of HST Mk3 and Loco-Hauled Mk3 coaches. It wouldn't be too difficult to tweak the toolings for both versions.
If they were really clever about it, the Wessex 442 electric, and Irish Mk3 could be a possibility.
A good, clever, adaptable tooling could provide a huge ammout of variations of the Mk3 coach. This clever tooling could keep going on for years based on this.
It is way overdue the HST was offered as a serious model. With a 30 year front-line service on most major routes in the UK as well as it's cult iconic status and revolutionary design and a multitude of liveries and variations surely it makes sense?
It will appeal to young and old alike. You could run it through the ages from 1970s British Rail next to 'Westerns', 'Deltics', 'Peaks' etc, right up to the present private operators. Such a wide scope and appeal!

A modern High Speed Train on your layout with no pantograph or overhead wires to worry about!
Come on somebody!
Look what happened to the publishers who said 'no' to Harry Potter! Somebody else really cleaned up there! I bet the others are kicking themselves.
Sorry to harp on, but the HST (and Mk3 coach) has a such a glowing list of cedentials it's a shame there is no decent model.

 

[ozwarrior]

Driver Sam & Russell,
Vi, Heljan, Dapol or any other of the 'small fry' are never going to do an HST. The reason is so obvious I am not going to elaborate.
Bachmann? Maybe but it's a huge risk even for them. Also most of us would be dead before we got it.
There is but one choice...Hornby.
I too would love a high spec Hornby HST but do have two of theirs with the 5-pole ringfield and extra weight. They run really well as scale length on the flat. I belong to a club with 120 members and all I get are oohs and aahs...but then I'm not in Britain.
Hornby are quite capable as their forthcoming Lima Thalys and Jouef TGV will show. Take a look at the service sheets.
In the meantime I'll enjoy what's available.

 

[rb277170]

Sorry , have to disagree there Ozwarrior.

Proof of the last 30 years (well at least the last 20, the model was OK for its time) is that Hornby are not capable. As long as there's no competition they will keep on churning out the same models at high prices. Even on their own website people are questioning the cost of such an old model v a Bachmann Voyager . If they do produce a new one with opening doors (ever seen a diesel speeding along with its doors open?) rotating fan etc it will cost a fortune.

We need a manufacturer to stir the pot on this one as LIMA did in the 80s. Bachmann are a candidate only because of their size. But with their current release policy I'd question whether they can secure enough Kader factory capacity to make a proper range of HSTs in all their liveries. Look at their performance on the 37 and 47. Models are released in dribs and drabs it would take years to cover all liveries.

I think the HST is ideal for ViTrains. Initially 2 basic mouldings would be enough. A power car and a Mk3 coach. Buffets and TGS could follow. What ViTrains have shown is that they can bring a decently driven model to market in relatively small quantities- just right for the multi liveried HST. Meanwhile Hornby produce 73 and 59s that can hardly pull a train - finally corrected by reverting to traction tyres on the 66. Is this a company you can trust to produce an HST that will move(not to mention the errors pointed out by driver sam)- or simply one out to make a fast buck?

Russell

 

[Bilbo]

Do Vitrains use traction tyres ?

 

[ozwarrior]

QUOTE (Bilbo @ 20 Sep 2007, 07:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Do Vitrains use traction tyres ?

Yes Bilbo they do. I don't know of any Continental manufacturers that don't but I'm open to correction.

Russell. Out of curiosity have you ever made a complimentary Hornby posting? No offence but the negativity keeps on coming.

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 20 Sep 2007, 01:53) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes Bilbo they do. I don't know of any Continental manufacturers that don't but I'm open to correction.

The Piko Hobby range do not have traction tyres & do not appear to suffer lack of haulage (20+ coaches).

Most of the Roco diesel & OHE in my own fleet have had the traction tyred axels replaced with standard ones ordered as spare parts.

 

[Jennings]

Even though its the old power car tooling it hasn't put me off from buying one of these - Would look nice running next to the 225 and i doubt Hornby would do one in GNER livery again (Unless they re-do the tolling).

Only problem is finding somewhere in / near London that has them for sale ... Thats close (Well within reason) to public transport ... Any ideas?

 

[rb277170]

QUOTE Russell. Out of curiosity have you ever made a complimentary Hornby posting? No offence but the negativity keeps on coming.

You're right Ozwarrior in that I'm extremely disappointed with the current regime.

Actually my first Trainset was a Triang Hornby Freightmaster given to me at Christmas 1965. It was magical and responsible for my addiction to model railways! More of these Red and Yellow boxes followed each year. Each one more and more magical. Fantastic models like the original 9F. Each year the Triang- Hornby then Hornby Railways catalogue was looked for ward to with eager anticipation. Just look back at a 1974 catalogue it bristles with excitement and features.

Yes , there's a lot good about the current Hornby range. Locos like the King Arthur, Black 5, 08 are superb.

Maybe its an age thing - I'm less easy to impress these days - but there is also a heavy downside.

Lack of flair. We are getting the locos shown on wishlists. Yes I know these are the one everyone wants and its correct that they are made. But I'd bet the old Triang hornby would be giving us something extra (like the Caley 4-2-2 and Lord of the Isles) - maybe these days a Holden 4-4-0 or a Caley 4-4-0. Triang Hornby was a market maker not just a follower of wishlists . I suppose its all about being proactive rather than reactive.

Lack of quality and consistancy. Yes you could pick up a model that runs perfectly from the box. In my experience you can also pick up a "duff" one. I now only buy locos from my local shop as the last 4 have all had varying faults

Black 5 Faulty coupling rods
Princess Just wouldn't go
8F Would run intermitantly. By pressing on the dome would run, take finger off stops
Duchess huge throw of loco on each rotation of wheels . Badly quartered or something wrong with gear assembly/worm- how could this have passed quality control?

Overpriced
Sorry there is no way anyone can convince me that £85 for an M7 isn't just blatent profiteering
£35 for a Gresley , £25 for a Stanier coach(why it looks very ordinary and actually some are very poorly finished). On the other hand Bachmann Mk1s come in at around £20
Pricing around 15-20% more expensive than Bachmann - even though similar supply chain.
Old HSTs being knocked out at around the same price is Bachmann Voyagers (wheres the value there?)

Unfit for purpose
Class 59 and 73s that can't pull reasonable Trains. Would never have been released in Triang days.

Badly liveried/finished models
Driver Sam points out issues with HSTs but we have also had the 121 with full yellow end, Strathclyde 156 with wrong colour roof, 59 with wrong livery for front end.

Arrogance
You get the sense that Hornby think they are model railways and that nobody else matters. Hence the "Select" fiasco and the " all locos from 2007 will have DCC chip fitted" statement (since rescinded)

All this in a catalogue which is visually and technically superb but just bland

So , yes , I have a deep disappointment about the company I used to love and it does need someone to come in and shake it up- hence my support for a Vitrains HST

Russell

 

[DriverSam]

Comments have been made about members posting very negative views on some of Hornby's. Indeed I have done so myself. I can understand people who defend Hornby as they do have some very good quality models in their range. However a lot of recent releases have been so inconsistent with detail and accuracy that you have to wonder just what is going on. The ex-Lima class 59 was mentioned in having the wrong colour ends. I'm not sure which one this is, but the Yeoman version, 59005 even has the wrong body tooling! As well the green Deltic with it's wipac headlight clusters.

Like any other company it is in Hornby's interest to produce quality goods at a realistic price. They are not doing themselves any favours by knocking out inferior goods at an inflated price. However this probably doesn't do too much damage as they can quite casually rest on their name.
Modellers are paying a lot of money for their goods from a reputable company with a long history in the field they are operating. For this reason these modellers should not expect to be disappointed by models with poor consistency in finish and detail.
A company with such long standing and experience in this field should know their subject well enough not to keep producing so many inferior goods. Goods which are poorly researched and finished and carry inconsistencies within the range.

I think the main causes of the negative comments stem from:
# A lack of definition and sensible pricing between 'toys' and 'scale models' in the range.
# Disappointment that such a reputable company with such long standing and experience in this field doesn't seem to know or research it's subject matter as well as it should.
# The sheer amount of errors on models recently is unacceptable given the huge amount of information available on the subject. For example the wealth of pictures in magazines and on the internet.

In the sixties and seventies it was more 'toy train-sets'. Times have moved on, and now we have ready to run detailed scale models on the market. There have been improvements in manufacturing technology, for example, computer aided design. The internet alone has an incedibly rich source of good quality pictures for photographic reference covering a wide timeline through the history of our railways.
Because of this, it is purely only down to sloppiness that such inferior items can hit the shelves in this day and age.
Fair enough if its a toy then its a toy. If this is so then it needs to be placed in an appropriate toy range and accordingly priced.
'Models' which are sold as such, have a higher expectation of quality and consistency which should be delivered if that is what the modeller is paying for.
This is what I beleive to be the problem that is causing negativity towards some of the items in Hornby's range.
And that includes the HST and the recent disappointment among modellers that the latest releases are now using Hornby's old original Power Cars and not the better ex-Lima ones as originally promised.
I wonder if Hornby will be adjusting the price of these sets because of this! Probably not.

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (DriverSam @ 22 Sep 2007, 02:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}># Disappointment that such a reputable company with such long standing and experience in this field doesn't seem to know or research it's subject matter as well as it should.

IMHO the comments made by Russell & Driver Sam are fair.

What seems to be often forgotton is that Hornby is not really the same company as it was in the 60/70's.

AFAIK many years are the Lines Bros had a factory in Kingston producing model/train sets. A purpose built factory (which still exists today) was built a Margate & one at Canterbury (long gone) and used the brand name Triang Railways.

At some stage Triage took over Hornby who were based in Liverpool. Most people know that Hornby (the Liverpool one) made 3-rail equipment & some 2-rail equipment. The Hornby range was discontinued (or most of it ?) & produced by Wrenn at Basildon until Wrenns demise. The models produced at Margate were known for a while as "Triang Hornby", but were in the most part "Triang". Later on the Triang part of the name was dropped & it became "Hornby Railways" - makes you wonder which was the stongest brand name.

At various times there was a certain amount of financial restructuring. So, what we have to take into account is that the company that manufactured "Triang Railways" at the Margate factory is a very different one (not just legally) from the one that currently occupies the Margate "facility" & sub-contracts it manufacturing to a factory the other side of the world.

This is how I remember it, although a few details may very well not be 100% accurate & I have reflected my personal opinions. Certainly, as far as the general public is concerned "Hornby" are model railways (in the UK at least) & maybe H depend on this to a certain extent - who knows ? - time will tell.

 

[7113]

To follow on fom dbc50's last post, Triang bought Hornby in 1965, when it (Triang) was part of Lines Brothers. A special interim "catalogue" was issued at the time with a Cuneo cover. (this has been seen to change hands for ridiculous amounts of money). It should also be noted perhaps that G & R Wrenn were also part of the Lines Bros empire.

Of course Wrenn sold some of the tooling to Dapol, and of course just to confuse the issue further Dapol sold Hornby some of the old tooling they had.

Hornby Hobbies has as been pointed out before gone bump a fair few times, but hopefully will continue to stay in business this time. It is also interesting that at one point the company owned the Fletcher powre boat company - loosely a hobby and certainly a manufacturer of big boys toys!

Regards

 

[ozwarrior]

Hi Guys.
I just thought that in view of Hornby's new high spec HST being announced I'd resurrect this thread.
Not that I'm saying "I told you so" or anything!

 

[darobi]

QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 2 Jan 2008, 09:57) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Guys.
I just thought that in view of Hornby's new high spec HST being announced I'd resurrect this thread.
Not that I'm saying "I told you so" or anything!

Lest hope you have got all the coaches for a full set. They have only mentioned the Grand Central ones as separate releases. Nothing so far on the Executive or original livery and the GNER ones where out over the last 2 years or so.

Maybe Doug or Gary can enlighten us on that aspect but I can't remember seeing any info on extra coaches for the other packs.

 

[alanb]

When people question Russell about his loyalty to Hornby, we must remember that loyalty has to be earned.
I would dearly like to make a complimentary remark, but from my recent experience it is very difficult.
I was caught up at the beginning of the year by fatally buying a 'DCC Goods Set'. The experience was not good, and very nearly put me off DCC for life.
Luckily I managed to recover after three months, and purchased a proper DCC unit, a Prodigy Advance controller.
The Hornby gear went back.
Three months ago, I purchased a 'Battle of Britain' loco as my first 'steamer'. It ran for a while, then burnt out a Lenz chip. On removing the body, I noticed that the boiler was split at the end. So that went back.
Yesterday, I purchased an A3 Windsor Lad. On putting it on the DC run-in track, it started and then stopped. I tried two or three times, and then the power supply cut out.
I took the loco of the track, and inspected underneath. On turning it back over, I gave it a shake, and two pieces of plastic fell out. - one long and very thin, and the other about 5mmx8mm.
I put the loco back on the track, and it ran perfectly.
The other loco was a R2502 'Overton Grange'. It refused to move on the track unless the full voltage was applied, then it only moved slightly.
I took the body off and tried to run it, but the only thing to happen was the motor getting hot. So that has been returned.
I have ordered another which will be here tomorrow, as they have been reduced by Hobby craft. Their Cheltenham branch does mail order, and are very helpful.
The only item that I can say that I have been happy with is the Railroad range 'Flying Scotsman'. That has been fitted with a Lenz chip and is running extremely well.
So, as the old saying goes 'The proof of the pudding is in the eating'.

A Happy New Year to you all, and happy modelling for 2008.

Alan