Interesting Columbo. Are you saying in fact that the bogies didn't have sufficent longtitudinal movement to allow them to 'tip' or 'rock' as they negotiated your pointwork and as a result one or more of the wheel flanges was rising above the rail head. If that is what was happening doesn't that put a question mark over the longtitudinal level of your track? I suppose but fact that the rest of your stock is OK the level can't be that far adrift though. I must admit, I did have a similar problem with a rake of Bachmann BYA's but that on investigation that turned out to be the screw that retains the buckeye coupling plate was fouling the the bogie and preventing it from 'rocking' on its king post.
Hornby Gresley Carriages Derailing
When these fine looking carriages first appeared, like many other people, I went out and bought a couple, and very nice they are too. The only problem was that they kept derailing when being shunted through my hand built slip points. If it was not for that the fact that nothing else ever derails (well - hardly ever), I would blame the track. There was a lot of discussion about this problem at the time and several solutions were proposed.
I tried fitting the full rake of six Ian Kirk kitbuilt Gresleys, and the two Hornbys with Kadee couplings, the running improved a great deal but still these two persisted in derailing. Naturally I had reset the wheel's back to back and even tried fitting Romford wheels. Nothing worked and the two nice new Hornby carriages were relegated to the end of a carriage siding, which was a great waste of space as well as money.
Today I had another look at them and noticed that clearance between the top of the bogie frames and the bottom of the sole bars was very shallow compared with my other stock, could that be the problem?. Were they catching as they rattled through my points? I carefully prized off the bogies with an instrument screwdriver and fitted two home made plastic washers over the mounting pegs. These washers are made out of 0.5mm plasticard sheet with a 5mm hole drilled in them and cut round in a rough circle about 15mm diameter. You could use any thin washers that fitted.
This has done the trick and now I have no problem with derailing. The carriages ride a scale 1.5" higher, but next to my Ian Kirk carriages this is not at all noticeable.
If you are still having problems, I suggest that you try this cure. Please let us know if it works.
Colombo
I tried fitting the full rake of six Ian Kirk kitbuilt Gresleys, and the two Hornbys with Kadee couplings, the running improved a great deal but still these two persisted in derailing. Naturally I had reset the wheel's back to back and even tried fitting Romford wheels. Nothing worked and the two nice new Hornby carriages were relegated to the end of a carriage siding, which was a great waste of space as well as money.
Today I had another look at them and noticed that clearance between the top of the bogie frames and the bottom of the sole bars was very shallow compared with my other stock, could that be the problem?. Were they catching as they rattled through my points? I carefully prized off the bogies with an instrument screwdriver and fitted two home made plastic washers over the mounting pegs. These washers are made out of 0.5mm plasticard sheet with a 5mm hole drilled in them and cut round in a rough circle about 15mm diameter. You could use any thin washers that fitted.
This has done the trick and now I have no problem with derailing. The carriages ride a scale 1.5" higher, but next to my Ian Kirk carriages this is not at all noticeable.
If you are still having problems, I suggest that you try this cure. Please let us know if it works.
Colombo
1 - 5 of 5 Posts
Interesting. I have one car that persists in derailing and have regulated this car to siding. I will investigate the trucks and see what if . I may go so far as to replace the bolster as I don't like this toy train method of attching the trucks.
Ozzie21
QUOTE (Colombo @ 24 Jun 2006, 05:35) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>When these fine looking carriages first appeared, like many other people, I went out and bought a couple, and very nice they are too. The only problem was that they kept derailing when being shunted through my hand built slip points. If it was not for that the fact that nothing else ever derails (well - hardly ever), I would blame the track. There was a lot of discussion about this problem at the time and several solutions were proposed.
I tried fitting the full rake of six Ian Kirk kitbuilt Gresleys, and the two Hornbys with Kadee couplings, the running improved a great deal but still these two persisted in derailing. Naturally I had reset the wheel's back to back and even tried fitting Romford wheels. Nothing worked and the two nice new Hornby carriages were relegated to the end of a carriage siding, which was a great waste of space as well as money.
Today I had another look at them and noticed that clearance between the top of the bogie frames and the bottom of the sole bars was very shallow compared with my other stock, could that be the problem?. Were they catching as they rattled through my points? I carefully prized off the bogies with an instrument screwdriver and fitted two home made plastic washers over the mounting pegs. These washers are made out of 0.5mm plasticard sheet with a 5mm hole drilled in them and cut round in a rough circle about 15mm diameter. You could use any thin washers that fitted.
This has done the trick and now I have no problem with derailing. The carriages ride a scale 1.5" higher, but next to my Ian Kirk carriages this is not at all noticeable.
If you are still having problems, I suggest that you try this cure. Please let us know if it works.
Colombo
Ozzie21
QUOTE (Colombo @ 24 Jun 2006, 05:35) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>When these fine looking carriages first appeared, like many other people, I went out and bought a couple, and very nice they are too. The only problem was that they kept derailing when being shunted through my hand built slip points. If it was not for that the fact that nothing else ever derails (well - hardly ever), I would blame the track. There was a lot of discussion about this problem at the time and several solutions were proposed.
I tried fitting the full rake of six Ian Kirk kitbuilt Gresleys, and the two Hornbys with Kadee couplings, the running improved a great deal but still these two persisted in derailing. Naturally I had reset the wheel's back to back and even tried fitting Romford wheels. Nothing worked and the two nice new Hornby carriages were relegated to the end of a carriage siding, which was a great waste of space as well as money.
Today I had another look at them and noticed that clearance between the top of the bogie frames and the bottom of the sole bars was very shallow compared with my other stock, could that be the problem?. Were they catching as they rattled through my points? I carefully prized off the bogies with an instrument screwdriver and fitted two home made plastic washers over the mounting pegs. These washers are made out of 0.5mm plasticard sheet with a 5mm hole drilled in them and cut round in a rough circle about 15mm diameter. You could use any thin washers that fitted.
This has done the trick and now I have no problem with derailing. The carriages ride a scale 1.5" higher, but next to my Ian Kirk carriages this is not at all noticeable.
If you are still having problems, I suggest that you try this cure. Please let us know if it works.
Colombo
Gofer,
No, I am not saying that my track is so rough that one wheel is lifting as you describe. If it were, then I would be relaying it as everything would derail. The problem had to be something unique to Hornby Gresleys as they are the only carriages with the problem. I have not yet bought any Pullmans because of this fault on the Gresleys and so Hornby should take note.
What appears to have been happening is that, in particular places, the top of the bogie frame was catching on the bottom of the solebar (the framework supporting the body sides). This happened as the carriage progressed through the crossings in the pointwork, the body rocking and twisting and the bogies canting and turning as they are supposed to.
The effect of the bogie frame catching in this way is to momentarily limit its movement, consequently the wheels are no longer free to run parallel to the rails and the flange on one wheel is pressed against the rail, "looking", as it were, for an opportunity to climb out of the 4 foot way. This opportunity could be offered by a rail joint, a crossing or the sharp end of a point blade. Then the carriage derails.
The Kadee couplings helped to a great extent by ensuring that the point of attachment of the carriage to its neighbours is along the centre line of the vehicle. With a tension lock coupling, this is not the case because because at any moment only one or other of the two hooks may be in contact with the bar of the coupling on the attached vehicle. Then the pull is not central to the vehicle, the bogie is pulled to one side or other of the 4 foot and a wheel flange is pressed against the rail looking for an opportunity to climb out.
When I fitted Kadees to the Ian Kirk kit built carriages in place of the old tension locks, their running much improved, but it was not the cure for the Hornby Gresleys.
Could it possibly be that the Chinese manufacturers test their Hornby stock on ideal track laid on flat boards without any underlay or ballast, so they would not get the problems that modellers in the "real world" experience? I am not having any problems with their new Stanier stock, it runs perfectly and so perhaps they have now identified the cause of the problem and cured it.
Please, if you have been having similar problems, try fitting my washers as described in my previous posting and report the outcome.
Colombo
No, I am not saying that my track is so rough that one wheel is lifting as you describe. If it were, then I would be relaying it as everything would derail. The problem had to be something unique to Hornby Gresleys as they are the only carriages with the problem. I have not yet bought any Pullmans because of this fault on the Gresleys and so Hornby should take note.
What appears to have been happening is that, in particular places, the top of the bogie frame was catching on the bottom of the solebar (the framework supporting the body sides). This happened as the carriage progressed through the crossings in the pointwork, the body rocking and twisting and the bogies canting and turning as they are supposed to.
The effect of the bogie frame catching in this way is to momentarily limit its movement, consequently the wheels are no longer free to run parallel to the rails and the flange on one wheel is pressed against the rail, "looking", as it were, for an opportunity to climb out of the 4 foot way. This opportunity could be offered by a rail joint, a crossing or the sharp end of a point blade. Then the carriage derails.
The Kadee couplings helped to a great extent by ensuring that the point of attachment of the carriage to its neighbours is along the centre line of the vehicle. With a tension lock coupling, this is not the case because because at any moment only one or other of the two hooks may be in contact with the bar of the coupling on the attached vehicle. Then the pull is not central to the vehicle, the bogie is pulled to one side or other of the 4 foot and a wheel flange is pressed against the rail looking for an opportunity to climb out.
When I fitted Kadees to the Ian Kirk kit built carriages in place of the old tension locks, their running much improved, but it was not the cure for the Hornby Gresleys.
Could it possibly be that the Chinese manufacturers test their Hornby stock on ideal track laid on flat boards without any underlay or ballast, so they would not get the problems that modellers in the "real world" experience? I am not having any problems with their new Stanier stock, it runs perfectly and so perhaps they have now identified the cause of the problem and cured it.
Please, if you have been having similar problems, try fitting my washers as described in my previous posting and report the outcome.
Colombo
Colombo
Apologies if I appeared to have been knocking your track laying ability, that certainly wasn't the intention. As I said, the fact that you are not having a problem with your other stock suggests that the problem is not with your track. I don't have any Hornby Gresley coaches but did experience a similar problem with the Bachmann BYA's, BRA's and HTA's but with these vehicles it was the top of the bogie frames fouling the screw that retains the body mounted buckeye coupling. With these it was simply a case of removing the screw as it was not required being that I use bogie fitted Kadee couplings. I realise that the bogies of all vehicles need a certain amount of lateral and longtitiudinal movement in order to cope with the cross level and lontitudinal discrepancies of our track especially in the vicinity of the frog of points where one wheel always tries to drop into the gap caused by the frog. Interesting, there has been quite a lot written in various forums and magazines with regard to the Hornby Gresleys and their disposition for leaving the track, although from what I gather this has more to do with the coupling arrangement than bogie free play.
Apologies if I appeared to have been knocking your track laying ability, that certainly wasn't the intention. As I said, the fact that you are not having a problem with your other stock suggests that the problem is not with your track. I don't have any Hornby Gresley coaches but did experience a similar problem with the Bachmann BYA's, BRA's and HTA's but with these vehicles it was the top of the bogie frames fouling the screw that retains the body mounted buckeye coupling. With these it was simply a case of removing the screw as it was not required being that I use bogie fitted Kadee couplings. I realise that the bogies of all vehicles need a certain amount of lateral and longtitiudinal movement in order to cope with the cross level and lontitudinal discrepancies of our track especially in the vicinity of the frog of points where one wheel always tries to drop into the gap caused by the frog. Interesting, there has been quite a lot written in various forums and magazines with regard to the Hornby Gresleys and their disposition for leaving the track, although from what I gather this has more to do with the coupling arrangement than bogie free play.
1 - 5 of 5 Posts
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