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Just seen on hattons that they now have "excalibur" in stock,
one thing that struck me as weird is that the tender is a lot different to what has been shown in the original pictures so im wondering which one is actually correct




so if anyone can shed some more information on this it would be much apreciated
 

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QUOTE (Conemaster @ 22 May 2007, 19:25) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>one thing that struck me as weird is that the tender is a lot different to what has been shown in the original pictures so im wondering which one is actually correct
Hello Conemaster,

Have you looked at:
http://www.semg.org.uk/steam/n15class_1.html

QUOTE (Southern E-Group)Early batches came originally with 4300 gallon Drummond "watercart" tenders, a design which was modified by Urie with outside bearing bogies and an increased 5000 gallon capacity. The six wheeled tenders for Brighton line had a capacity of 3500 gallons and these required a higher intermediate draw gear than the bogie tenders. Over time tenders were swapped around not only within the class but also with S15s, the Schools class (which received their six wheeled tenders) and with the Lord Nelson class (some lost their newer flat sided bogie tenders and received an earlier Urie version).

The Southern E-group's pictures here suggest two different designs, the more commonly pictured version seems to be the one Hornby has produced. Some of the pictures are black and white and so must be correct!

Hope this helps,
Goedel
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
what i was more asking is what livery is correct for this locomotive as there seems to be a big diffence in the markings between the pre produciton one and the version hattons have shown
personally i like the original one better but would perfer to know which is correct etc or whether its just diffences along the life of the loco
 

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Locos were known to change tenders and this certainly applies to this class (see above) What tender of what type was carried by a given loco at a given date requires a fair bit of scholarship to establish precisely.

The usual expedient would be to look at dated pictures of the loco if you can find any - try typing in name/number into google, unless you have some reference books on the class

I believe Hornby are offering versions of the Arthur with both 6 and 8 wheel tenders. Manufacturers have been known to make mistakes in this area and give a late crest loco a tender it lost while still in early crest , but in the first instance we would assume they've got it right. Perhaps someone can confirm that 736 was a South Western Division loco pre war ? - in which case the "water-cart" would be right I presume

The livery is pre war olive green, as used under Maunsell. The much brighter and more vivid SR malachite green was introduced by Bullied - I think from 1945, but Bullied took over in 1938. That would have been replaced by BR lined Brunswick green after 1948 , when the loco recieved a repaint. I don't think any Arthurs would have recieved mixed traffic lined black . However I'm an ER modern image modeller so SR steam scholarship is not my specialist subject

I assume in due course Hornby will ring the changes on all these liveries across all the varients of the loco. They are offering versions with 2 different cabs as well
 

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This is the correct tender for this loco in this livery and the later ones being offered, 736 was the first Arthur, or more correctly N15 as it was not until later that the Arthur class was "created" by the publicity department. The tender is the standard Urie bogie tender, it is not the "watercart" type, which was carried by the second batch of Arthurs which were nominally "rebuilt" from dodgy Drummond 4-6-0s which had watercart tenders. Hornby say they have no plans to do an Arthur with a watercart tender but they are believed to be thinking about a T9 many of which had them so we might see one some day.
 

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I guess Hornby made a last-minute decision to paint it in a later Southern livery than originally planned.

The LSWR livery style was adopted by the Southern. Changes were then made over time. There does seem to be some inconsistency with the way the tenders were painted and even in LSWR days tenders on some types had black raves.

Locomotives in Detail by Peter Swift page 10 shows a painting of the first Urie N15 as built in 1918 in LSWR livery with the tender painting the same style as the Hornby original publicity pictures. Pre-war 1938/9 Southern livery early colour photos (see The Big Four in Colour) show King Arthur tenders with black raves.

I believe that both liveries are probably correct for Excalibur - the Hornby pictures are in early/mid 1930s style (smoke deflectors and no E-prefix), the model is in 1938-40 style (In 1940 it received a Lemaitre chimney and olive green with yellow lining).
 
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