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Hornby Rebuilt class 7P Royal Scot - Review
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Did you fit a sound decoder in this one Doug ?, is there enough space under the chimney to get a smoke unit in ?, congratulations on an excellent review.
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That is a top review and probably one of the best I have read on the web this year! Interesting to see the comparison between the latest Hornby model and the Airfix version. I wonder if Hornby examine the products of previous manufacturers when developing their own models?
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It would be useful to pin it at the top of the section with the others as there is excellent info included about DCC conversion.
Like the idea of black and white pictures as that is how most of us remember them!
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Happy modelling
Gary
It would be useful to pin it at the top of the section with the others as there is excellent info included about DCC conversion.
Like the idea of black and white pictures as that is how most of us remember them!
Happy modelling
Gary
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First, thanks for the kind words about the review. This one has been a bit of a slog for various reasons, so to get positive feedback is very welcome and helps to recharge the "morale batteries".
In answer to your questions:-
Sound decoder fitted?
No. If you do want to fit a sound decoder, it will have to go in the tender. There is no room in the loco. If you fit a really large speaker like the DCC Supplies bass reflex one, you are going to have to do some surgery and eat into the coal bunker space.
Smoke unit / DCC decoder in the smoke box.
I am going to answer these two questions at the same time. The smoke box is an enclosed cylinder and separate from the boiler. This has two consequences:
1) Neither the decoder nor the wiring can be placed or looped into the smoke box void without performing some keyhole surgery
2) Fitting a smoke unit will require major surgery to open up the bottom of the smoke box. If you look at photo 3 of the decoder fitting section you can see how much the chassis "steps up" towards the boiler. There's not a lot of depth in there.
I am sure a smoke unit could be fitted but you'd have to be a brave man to do it. Taking the smokebox assembly off might make it difficult to get the hand rails back on afterwards.
and finally to 60134:
QUOTE close up photos are great.
Now you know why I was so pleased by your Tornado valve gear shots. I've been doing a fair bit of closeup stuff myself recently.
Any more questions, do ask.
David
In answer to your questions:-
Sound decoder fitted?
No. If you do want to fit a sound decoder, it will have to go in the tender. There is no room in the loco. If you fit a really large speaker like the DCC Supplies bass reflex one, you are going to have to do some surgery and eat into the coal bunker space.
Smoke unit / DCC decoder in the smoke box.
I am going to answer these two questions at the same time. The smoke box is an enclosed cylinder and separate from the boiler. This has two consequences:
1) Neither the decoder nor the wiring can be placed or looped into the smoke box void without performing some keyhole surgery
2) Fitting a smoke unit will require major surgery to open up the bottom of the smoke box. If you look at photo 3 of the decoder fitting section you can see how much the chassis "steps up" towards the boiler. There's not a lot of depth in there.
I am sure a smoke unit could be fitted but you'd have to be a brave man to do it. Taking the smokebox assembly off might make it difficult to get the hand rails back on afterwards.
and finally to 60134:
QUOTE close up photos are great.
Now you know why I was so pleased by your Tornado valve gear shots. I've been doing a fair bit of closeup stuff myself recently.
Any more questions, do ask.
David
QUOTE (dwb @ 24 Oct 2007, 19:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I am going to answer these two questions at the same time. The smoke box is an enclosed cylinder and separate from the boiler. This has two consequences:
1) Neither the decoder nor the wiring can be placed or looped into the smoke box void without performing some keyhole surgery ..
David,
Thanks for the clarification. If I ever buy one of these, there will likely be an early attack with a high speed rotary tool on the inside end of the smokebox, to enable the decoder to be placed there. Don't know about anyone else, but I want all the space possible above the coupled wheels of a 4-6-0 free to take ballast weight.
1) Neither the decoder nor the wiring can be placed or looped into the smoke box void without performing some keyhole surgery ..
David,
Thanks for the clarification. If I ever buy one of these, there will likely be an early attack with a high speed rotary tool on the inside end of the smokebox, to enable the decoder to be placed there. Don't know about anyone else, but I want all the space possible above the coupled wheels of a 4-6-0 free to take ballast weight.
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Here's a closeup of the underbelly of the smoke box assembly. I am guessing that the small black cross head screw holds it onto the main superstructure. I think the chimney is directly above that screw.
![Building Automotive tire Grille Automotive lighting Bumper]()
I didn't remove the body just to take this photo for you. Unfortunately the "buzzing" noise I commented on in the gradient test has become terminal; ie the motor worm gear has disengaged from the drive gear wheel. I think the problem is caused by pressure from the decoder wires on the block which is supposed to hold the worm in mesh with the drive gear wheel. This pressure has allowed the front of the motor to lift and take the worm wheel with it - the result is no drive.
David
I didn't remove the body just to take this photo for you. Unfortunately the "buzzing" noise I commented on in the gradient test has become terminal; ie the motor worm gear has disengaged from the drive gear wheel. I think the problem is caused by pressure from the decoder wires on the block which is supposed to hold the worm in mesh with the drive gear wheel. This pressure has allowed the front of the motor to lift and take the worm wheel with it - the result is no drive.
David
Attachments
QUOTE (dwb @ 24 Oct 2007, 20:39) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Unfortunately the "buzzing" noise I commented on in the gradient test has become terminal; ie the motor worm gear has disengaged from the drive gear wheel. I think the problem is caused by pressure from the decoder wires on the block which is supposed to hold the worm in mesh with the drive gear wheel. This pressure has allowed the front of the motor to lift and take the worm wheel with it - the result is no drive.
David,
That's a Hornby constructional shortcoming I have been bugging about since first I bought one of their 'new generation' steam models (the A4) a couple of years ago: mechanically, the motor mount is inept. That's why they put that black chewing gum stuff under the motors, to try and keep them in the right place! Must admit it is putting me off 'discretionary' purchases from Hornby's range. When theirs is the best or only RTR loco of a type I need, it's grit the teeth and sort out the various inadequacies, but otherwise, no thanks. So that will be a Bachy Jubilee for my representative of the LMS 4-6-0 family...
David,
That's a Hornby constructional shortcoming I have been bugging about since first I bought one of their 'new generation' steam models (the A4) a couple of years ago: mechanically, the motor mount is inept. That's why they put that black chewing gum stuff under the motors, to try and keep them in the right place! Must admit it is putting me off 'discretionary' purchases from Hornby's range. When theirs is the best or only RTR loco of a type I need, it's grit the teeth and sort out the various inadequacies, but otherwise, no thanks. So that will be a Bachy Jubilee for my representative of the LMS 4-6-0 family...
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As stated there are several design problems with the range of Hornby loco's. The secondary drive gears are also known to wander off their shaft and out of mesh
(easily fixed). The other problem that raises it's self now and then (apart from the motor mount) is one side of the chassis is live. Current collection depends on a couple of self tapping screws and a pin to pick-up collector. If the pin does not make a good connection then problems develop. This can and should be tested on new loco's by running them with out the tender. BTW I'm not advocating that the self tapping screws under the base plate be over tightened, if your chassis is running well please leave them alone. In IMHO this can and should be modified with future loco's simply by running a wire from the pickup, after all they do it for other side so why not the both of them. The most likely reason is that dammed current collector between the tender and the body so greatly hated by Hornby fans, so why not go for a plug Hornby, and give punters the choice of space between tender and loco. There has been quite a steep increase in Loco prices in the last two years so I feel it's time for an improvement not only in basic appearance but also in function. Just in case you thought I was anti Hornby "which I'm not", the same applies to Bachmann please give the punters some tender pickups and simple plug connection between tender and loco. To both of you why can't you put the DCC plug in the tender where it goes on American loco's. To add a bit more constructive criticism the Scot tender does not have an NEM pocket, this is quite unacceptable and regressive. Manufacturers if you want high prices, not only do the punters want pretty locos they want functional ones as well.
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(easily fixed). The other problem that raises it's self now and then (apart from the motor mount) is one side of the chassis is live. Current collection depends on a couple of self tapping screws and a pin to pick-up collector. If the pin does not make a good connection then problems develop. This can and should be tested on new loco's by running them with out the tender. BTW I'm not advocating that the self tapping screws under the base plate be over tightened, if your chassis is running well please leave them alone. In IMHO this can and should be modified with future loco's simply by running a wire from the pickup, after all they do it for other side so why not the both of them. The most likely reason is that dammed current collector between the tender and the body so greatly hated by Hornby fans, so why not go for a plug Hornby, and give punters the choice of space between tender and loco. There has been quite a steep increase in Loco prices in the last two years so I feel it's time for an improvement not only in basic appearance but also in function. Just in case you thought I was anti Hornby "which I'm not", the same applies to Bachmann please give the punters some tender pickups and simple plug connection between tender and loco. To both of you why can't you put the DCC plug in the tender where it goes on American loco's. To add a bit more constructive criticism the Scot tender does not have an NEM pocket, this is quite unacceptable and regressive. Manufacturers if you want high prices, not only do the punters want pretty locos they want functional ones as well.
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QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 25 Oct 2007, 07:25) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Just in case you thought I was anti Hornby "which I'm not", the same applies to Bachmann please give the punters some tender pickups and simple plug connection between tender and loco. To both of you why can't you put the DCC plug in the tender where it goes on American loco's. To add a bit more constructive criticism the Scot tender does not have an NEM pocket, this is quite unacceptable and regressive. Manufacturers if you want high prices, not only do the punters want pretty locos they want functional ones as well.
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I agree completely. This is also the same with German locos. You lift the coal out of the tender and pull out the decoder plug, pop in the decoder and you're done in minutes as shown below.
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Compare that with the hassle you have putting a decoder into this. It was a bugger getting the body off it before decoder instalation even started. An extremely tight fit. I did get a Lenz Gold into this but it would only fit one way (with the flat side of the decoder facing upwards and the harness towards the front). It was a pretty nervous moment screwing the boiler back onto the chassis I can tell you.
Thanks for the review David, very comprehensive.
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I like your weathered one, but I had to have the Black Watch one as it's named after my local regiment.
I agree completely. This is also the same with German locos. You lift the coal out of the tender and pull out the decoder plug, pop in the decoder and you're done in minutes as shown below.
Compare that with the hassle you have putting a decoder into this. It was a bugger getting the body off it before decoder instalation even started. An extremely tight fit. I did get a Lenz Gold into this but it would only fit one way (with the flat side of the decoder facing upwards and the harness towards the front). It was a pretty nervous moment screwing the boiler back onto the chassis I can tell you.
Thanks for the review David, very comprehensive.
QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 24 Oct 2007, 22:25) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As stated there are several design problems with the range of Hornby loco's. The secondary drive gears are also known to wander off their shaft and out of mesh (easily fixed). The other problem that raises it's self now and then (apart from the motor mount) is one side of the chassis is live. Current collection depends on a couple of self tapping screws and a pin to pick-up collector. If the pin does not make a good connection then problems develop. This can and should be tested on new loco's by running them with out the tender. BTW I'm not advocating that the self tapping screws under the base plate be over tightened, if your chassis is running well please leave them alone. IMHO this can and should be modified with future loco's simply by running a wire from the pickup, after all they do it for other side so why not the both of them. The most likely reason is that dammed current collector between the tender and the body so greatly hated by Hornby fans, so why not go for a plug Hornby, and give punters the choice of space between tender and loco. There has been quite a steep increase in Loco prices in the last two years so I feel it's time for an improvement not only in basic appearance but also in function. Just in case you thought I was anti Hornby "which I'm not", the same applies to Bachmann please give the punters some tender pickups and simple plug connection between tender and loco. To both of you why can't you put the DCC plug in the tender where it goes on American loco's. To add a bit more constructive criticism the Scot tender does not have an NEM pocket, this is quite unacceptable and regressive. Manufacturers if you want high prices, not only do the punters want pretty locos they want functional ones as well.
100% agreement. I registered these points on the MREMag 'systematic improvements' poll recently, on the basis that the RTR mfrs do actually consult that site. Both Bach and Hornby clearly have the know how available to them. Hornby took a couple of steps in the right direction on their Britannia: fully wired collectors on the loco, prototypical tender drawbar, plug and socket electrical connection; and immediately reverted to 'same old, same old' on subsequent releases. No comment that I am aware of from the model railway press. Was the concept of 'continuous improvement' something I just imagined?
100% agreement. I registered these points on the MREMag 'systematic improvements' poll recently, on the basis that the RTR mfrs do actually consult that site. Both Bach and Hornby clearly have the know how available to them. Hornby took a couple of steps in the right direction on their Britannia: fully wired collectors on the loco, prototypical tender drawbar, plug and socket electrical connection; and immediately reverted to 'same old, same old' on subsequent releases. No comment that I am aware of from the model railway press. Was the concept of 'continuous improvement' something I just imagined?
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Excellent review Doug - I'll buy the special edition 6100 model on that basis
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By the way 46115 is at Carnforth and is expected to return to steam before the 'Jubilee' Galatea, perhaps as soon as December.
Regards,
Dan
By the way 46115 is at Carnforth and is expected to return to steam before the 'Jubilee' Galatea, perhaps as soon as December.
Regards,
Dan
Hi David . Congratulations on your fantastic ,thorough review of the Scot . Such a pity about its terrible performance on banks. If not fitting decoders and things is it possible to fit some ballast (lead shot) say in the smokebox area? I have quite a steep incline on my layout but most older models can cope .It would be quite embarasing to have my old K's kit built ex Midland 0F 0-4-0 ST out-perform a Rebiult Scot !
Tony (10001)
Tony (10001)
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QUOTE (Dan Hamblin @ 25 Oct 2007, 16:40) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Excellent review Doug - I'll buy the special edition 6100 model on that basis
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Terribly sorry - that should be David that I am thanking for writing the review
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Regards,
Dan
Terribly sorry - that should be David that I am thanking for writing the review
Regards,
Dan
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9,967 Posts
QUOTE(Makemineadouble @ 25 Oct 2007, 07:25) 
Just in case you thought I was anti Hornby "which I'm not", the same applies to Bachmann please give the punters some tender pickups and simple plug connection between tender and loco. To both of you why can't you put the DCC plug in the tender where it goes on American loco's. To add a bit more constructive criticism the Scot tender does not have an NEM pocket, this is quite unacceptable and regressive. Manufacturers if you want high prices, not only do the punters want pretty locos they want functional ones as well.
***MMAD - I was reading a 1981 "Model Railway Constructor" over lunch today.
The mag reviewed a new Hornby loco and commented "and the top comes off the tender to reveal a space for a Zero One chip". Seems they forgot all about that one
- mind you, you could always use the new Back EMF TCS M1 or MC2 and have a fully insulated decoder that fits anywhere in the loco, is fully insulated so can't short out and runs at least as slowly on speed step one as Zimo, ESU or lenz.... for almost half the price AND with a better warranty to boot!!
Interesting "other comments"
**The reviews all included a drawbar pull in ounces for reviewed loco's - sorely missing from cuurent reviews in mags.
**Nothing changes in haulage power either - the Fleischmann 2-10-0 tender drive loco reviewed had 4 times the drawbar pull of any of the Hornby loco's!
** The review of the Hornby LMS Compound mentioned the tender looked good but the axleboxes and springing were a bit shallow - Hornby STILL do the same thing with all their Stanier Tenders - P-Poor axlebox detail & depth, including all their new releases!! Also interesting to note the loco at this time had both driving wheel and front bogie pickups!!
(I shave it all off and use the Brassmasters Detail Kits)
** The New BM/Mainline Parallel boiler Scot was reviewed in Glowing Terms. (Still wish H had done this and not the rebuilt!!)
** Nothing changes - today its Ebay pricing but the magazine commented thus (They were also reviewing the first re-run of " Lord of the Isles" and commenting how good it was to se it again. "as used prices were at an absurdly high level" among collectors for the original 1961 production.
** Mindful of other current threads here - There was a full multi-page article on OHLE.
AND *** a "how to" on making points as Peco are inadequate!!! (And as far as I'm concerned, Re Peco - its still the case... 25+ years on and they still make cr*ppy pointwork!)
rememebr - this is a 1981 mag.... clearly - it was a great issue to read AND nothing changes very much, does it
Richard
Just in case you thought I was anti Hornby "which I'm not", the same applies to Bachmann please give the punters some tender pickups and simple plug connection between tender and loco. To both of you why can't you put the DCC plug in the tender where it goes on American loco's. To add a bit more constructive criticism the Scot tender does not have an NEM pocket, this is quite unacceptable and regressive. Manufacturers if you want high prices, not only do the punters want pretty locos they want functional ones as well.***MMAD - I was reading a 1981 "Model Railway Constructor" over lunch today.
The mag reviewed a new Hornby loco and commented "and the top comes off the tender to reveal a space for a Zero One chip". Seems they forgot all about that one
- mind you, you could always use the new Back EMF TCS M1 or MC2 and have a fully insulated decoder that fits anywhere in the loco, is fully insulated so can't short out and runs at least as slowly on speed step one as Zimo, ESU or lenz.... for almost half the price AND with a better warranty to boot!!Interesting "other comments"
**The reviews all included a drawbar pull in ounces for reviewed loco's - sorely missing from cuurent reviews in mags.
**Nothing changes in haulage power either - the Fleischmann 2-10-0 tender drive loco reviewed had 4 times the drawbar pull of any of the Hornby loco's!
** The review of the Hornby LMS Compound mentioned the tender looked good but the axleboxes and springing were a bit shallow - Hornby STILL do the same thing with all their Stanier Tenders - P-Poor axlebox detail & depth, including all their new releases!! Also interesting to note the loco at this time had both driving wheel and front bogie pickups!!
(I shave it all off and use the Brassmasters Detail Kits)
** The New BM/Mainline Parallel boiler Scot was reviewed in Glowing Terms. (Still wish H had done this and not the rebuilt!!)
** Nothing changes - today its Ebay pricing but the magazine commented thus (They were also reviewing the first re-run of " Lord of the Isles" and commenting how good it was to se it again. "as used prices were at an absurdly high level" among collectors for the original 1961 production.
** Mindful of other current threads here - There was a full multi-page article on OHLE.
AND *** a "how to" on making points as Peco are inadequate!!! (And as far as I'm concerned, Re Peco - its still the case... 25+ years on and they still make cr*ppy pointwork!)
rememebr - this is a 1981 mag.... clearly - it was a great issue to read AND nothing changes very much, does it
Richard
QUOTE (10001 @ 26 Oct 2007, 10:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi David . Congratulations on your fantastic ,thorough review of the Scot . Such a pity about its terrible performance on banks. If not fitting decoders and things is it possible to fit some ballast (lead shot) say in the smokebox area? I have quite a steep incline on my layout but most older models can cope .It would be quite embarasing to have my old K's kit built ex Midland 0F 0-4-0 ST out-perform a Rebiult Scot !
Tony,
As an inveterate hacker and weighter of OO locos, I will chip in on this one. Ideally the centre of mass should be balanced in the centre of the driven wheelbase, so that's where to start looking for positioning extra ballast. The pictures that David provides of the loco body interior and chassis shows plenty of room for lead above the driven wheels. Long shaped strips can be attached inside the curved sides of the boiler, and it is probable that a shaped sheet of lead can go inside the boiler backhead (on some smaller locos I have milled away the plastic from the inside leaving just a wafer with the cab interior detail on it to accomodate more weight 'in the right place'). Also the casting has a slot in it (to take Hornby's decoder, when fitted) and space above. I would be confident of getting a total of 4 oz / 120g of lead in these locations in a Scot sized loco. If that's not enough then there is that inviting void in the smokebox: position any weight there as close to the coupled wheels as possible. When weight is put there in a 4-6-0, it usually needs to be balanced with some weight added well to the rear of the loco. Lead sheet under the cab roof and/or under the cab floor up against the dragbeam is often possible.
Tony,
As an inveterate hacker and weighter of OO locos, I will chip in on this one. Ideally the centre of mass should be balanced in the centre of the driven wheelbase, so that's where to start looking for positioning extra ballast. The pictures that David provides of the loco body interior and chassis shows plenty of room for lead above the driven wheels. Long shaped strips can be attached inside the curved sides of the boiler, and it is probable that a shaped sheet of lead can go inside the boiler backhead (on some smaller locos I have milled away the plastic from the inside leaving just a wafer with the cab interior detail on it to accomodate more weight 'in the right place'). Also the casting has a slot in it (to take Hornby's decoder, when fitted) and space above. I would be confident of getting a total of 4 oz / 120g of lead in these locations in a Scot sized loco. If that's not enough then there is that inviting void in the smokebox: position any weight there as close to the coupled wheels as possible. When weight is put there in a 4-6-0, it usually needs to be balanced with some weight added well to the rear of the loco. Lead sheet under the cab roof and/or under the cab floor up against the dragbeam is often possible.
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A great review, thank you!
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The model however for me is not so great. I would like to see (and I would be prepared to pay for) a flywheel drive, smoke decoder plug in capability and it should be easier to fit decoder and speaker. It is dissappointing that they make a really good model when they could make a perfect one. But perhaps it is still not possible as a modest increase in price is more often than not accepted. I talked to modeller recently who complained about the ever increasing Hornby prices and the poor standard of 00 models compared to American HO. When asked how many locos he buys per year he estimated 30 models.
Is this typical for British 00 - quality instead of quantity? Or are there more collectors than elsewhere. This could explain why the newer models are optically more advanced than mechanically. A very difficult situation for the producers. We expect better models (and usually get them) from release to release but there is a lot of conservatism regarding price and DCC out there.
Thomas
The model however for me is not so great. I would like to see (and I would be prepared to pay for) a flywheel drive, smoke decoder plug in capability and it should be easier to fit decoder and speaker. It is dissappointing that they make a really good model when they could make a perfect one. But perhaps it is still not possible as a modest increase in price is more often than not accepted. I talked to modeller recently who complained about the ever increasing Hornby prices and the poor standard of 00 models compared to American HO. When asked how many locos he buys per year he estimated 30 models.
Is this typical for British 00 - quality instead of quantity? Or are there more collectors than elsewhere. This could explain why the newer models are optically more advanced than mechanically. A very difficult situation for the producers. We expect better models (and usually get them) from release to release but there is a lot of conservatism regarding price and DCC out there.
Thomas
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