[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE My gut feeling is that while the British hobbyist may have a smaller budget and maybe a narrower focus than their American counterpart they are very loyal to companies that they feel are addressing their market in both subject matter and price

I agree with Dennis. From the responces I have seen on this forum to paying more for better product, the majority of UK modellers seem quite happy to have models that do nothing other than go backward and forward and have bits fall of them all the time and express extreme disgust at paying twice as much for a model that has sound, smoke, lights and doesn't have "super detail" parts fall off continuously. Each to their own I say but what amazes me is the extreme reaction I find when discussing Continental and American locos and their cost. You get what you pay for at the end of the day and railway modelling in America and Germany has moved on to provide more , typically us Brits want to stay loyal to the past and are reluctant to progress on to new things.

QUOTE Have Hornby and Bachmann got it as right as their corporate success would suggest?

They have as their product is far better than it used to be but they still have a long way to go in global terms if they are to produce to the level of Roco, Trix, BLI or aother overseas manufacturers.

QUOTE Are we only interested in those subjects that are brought to us by Hornby and Bachmann?

No we aren't. In global terms one is a local manufacturer and the other is one of many in a huge (USA) market with a sideline in producing models for a few other countries. Their are many other manufacturers who are of interest. Look at the discussion about Marklin for confirmation of that.

QUOTE And that the UK modeller will only buy UK outline from Hornby and Bachmann (and Dapol and Peco).

If you go by the discussion on this forum that seems to be the impression given. It may be worth having a poll to confirm this. But it seems that most people want to model what they know and a minority want to model overseas prototype.

Hornby and Bachmann have definately got it right as they have provided what the majority market wants. My issue is that they are both providing the same product aimed at the same level and I reall think there is a space in the UK market for something better in terms of quality. The live steam sold fairly well so there are people who are prepared to pay for better product. Whether digital sound, live steam or whatever.

 

[neil_s_wood]

Having just checked Trix do a starter set with a basic electric loco and couple of wagons with anologue controller for 109 Euros. Smoky Joe is listed at Hattons for 75quid which is about the same when you do a currency conversion. The trix one is definitly better value here.

However if you want the Trix digital start set the price goes up to 199 Euro but this includes the new Trix systems controller. Hornby's digital sets are between 120 and 215 quid so there is not a lot in it really. The diference comes when buying digital sound locos or buying them from dealers in the UK which will add on at least 50% to your price.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE I was thinking more the stand alone Smokey Joe which Hattons list for £23. Is there a Euro equivalent of that?

The cheapest I could find was 40 Euros for a Roco electric which is not that far off 23 quid. I think all the manufacturers subsidize the starter sets to get brand loyalty so these are usually far better value than the individual components.

There isn't really that big a gap between British and Continental prices if you compare like for like. However if you are going by the prices in UK shops, which are often twice those of Germany, then it would look expensive.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE An equivalent set to the Trix set is around £40 to £50 in the UK and even lower in the USA where volumes are much higher.

Having just looked at the 50 quid train sets you are talking about on Hattons you get a smaller loco with a plastic body with the Hornby one. The loco with the Trix set has a metal body, is a lot bigger and has a high degree of detail for 10 quid more. So you can take your pick, theres not a lot in it.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE Maybe the new Marklin owners need to look closely at their marketing department

The previous owners already went on a bit if a starter set drive creating about four new starter sets. Two anologue and two digital. These are good value when you consider what you get. Metal bodies would have more chance of lasting with junior getting a bit boisterous as kids do. But I have to give it to you. Smoky Joe is cheaper if your preference is for a small plastic loco with several wagons.

QUOTE From a starter point of view and getting new blood involved the UK have got it right

Yes they do. But I would suggest that Trix and Roco also have it bang on for the German market.

The best value by far in my opinion are the Roco digital start sets mentioned before. They are the cheapest way to get into DCC.

I bought one myself a while back for that very reason.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE is there really any point in getting peoople to start modelling in 3 rail?
3 rail is a has been.
3 rail is past it
3 rail is dead.

You do know that not all German manufacturers mainly make three rail?

The reason I mention it is that none of the manufacturers mentioned make three rail as their main product. I think there seems to be a bit of an obsession developing. You seem to be seeing three rail even where it isn't.

You are right though. It would be mad starting in three rail.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE The real issue is that it is totally incompatible with anything else that anybody else produces.

Roco, Fleischmann, Lilliput (German Bachmann), Brawa and Piko all do three rail AC locos. This is exclusively to encroach on Marklins three rail AC market. They really have to do this due to Marklins dominance of the German market. While three rail AC may seem a bit of an anachronism to us they do have to excercise a degree of loyalty to their following and continue to provide AC three rail product to people who have been buying this for many years. Like the guys who don't want to modernize and take DCC on board there are also many who have no wish to change over their system to two rail DC and find they have many locos which they can no longer use.

Trix express was a three rail DC system which died out a long time ago but up until recently Trix did make the occasional model for this small market. Maybe a similar approach could be used by Marklin.
A solution would be to gradually faze out the three rail AC and simultaneously increase the two rail DC.

This may in fact increase sales as many people who run two rail DC do not look at the Marklin catalogue and do not know they can have wagons and coaches converted to DC wheelsets for free by the shop.

QUOTE Now I don't know how the Trix brand is doing however I suspect that Marklin make more money out of 2 rail Trix than they do out of 3 rail Marklin. The daft thing is that Marklin is the stronger brand.

I would be very interested to see this as Trixs new product did actually contract this year. There were no new American HO items this year but a few new European items especially budget ones. Maybe their research suggested that this is where there future is?

QUOTE I would simply drop Trix and call it 2 rail Marklin. Instant cost savings and instant appeal to new markets.
I do not care which it is called but would not like to see it disappear as it is fantastic product. I don't think this would be an issue for anyone except Marklin three rail diehards.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE I don't have the space for HO but if I did I would switch to Marklin in a second and never look back.

The reason I think you would be mad is that it restricts you from also operating American HO and British OO on the same layout. Unfortunately most of us can only have the one layout due to size restrictions. As most of Marklins locos are also made in two rail DC format you don't miss out on too much. However if you know that all you will ever model is German HO then there is only one choice. Marklin.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE So Hornby supply Marklin with more than just Harry Potter kit!

What makes you think that?

It must be just be the top part of the body as it is modified substantially. It is digital and three rail.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE very simple, 3 rail it 50's trainset technology trying to make it in a 21st century model railway world. It may be fifties technology for Hornby but it has been in use longer than that in Germany.

QUOTE it is simply the betamax of railway modelling.

betamax was around for maybe 10 years, Marklin and three rail have been around for well over 100 years, Hornby have been around for maybe half that.

QUOTE it belongs on the shelf with Zero1. it has no advantages over other control methods.

It has better current collection due to the extra rail.

I don't use three rail myself but if others choose to then that really is their choice.

QUOTE it's just a beaten format.

In what way?

Because it is not the dominant format.

There is plenty room in Railway modelling for alternative formats. Variety is a good thing. It is bordering on facism to insist that everyone models the same thing which from the views of two individuals seems to be Hornby OO. There is a big wide world out there. Check it out some time.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE I don't use three rail myself but if others choose to then that really is their choice" cant argue with that but i really cant see the point.

The point is you have been on a rant about three rail on several threads for some time. People are really starting to wonder what your problem is? What is your three rail obsession about?

QUOTE There is a big wide world out there. Check it out some time." oah come on this forum is above such bun fights. if you want to vent frustrations may i divert you towards the general direction of RMweb.

Take a good look in the mirror! That really is a bit rich considering the provocative posts you have been leaving re three rail. The only frustration I have is with your dogmatic views. If this forum is above such bunfights (what ever that is) why do you persist with this anti three rail tirade. You have said it dozens of times now, we have heard you. Can you just accept that other people have different views rather than trying to ram yours down their throats.

The reason I use the term facism is because this tends to associated with imposing your views on others without having any acceptance or tolerance of other views. Maybe it's a bit strong but I don't see any tolerance coming from the anti three rail camp.

If you are going to rant on about it then you really have to expect people to answer it. All I'm saying is if people want three rail then then leave them to it.

Can we maybe drop this three rail thing and get back to the thread. This has really gone on too long. I am starting to get convinced to change my system to three rail because of this arguement and I can't afford it!

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE My view is that 3-rail is a beaten format. I am not saying you shouldn't model it but I am saying if you expect the rest of the modelling world to start producing stuff for it, you'll be having tea with Godot before that happens. Bringing accusations of facism into the argument is usually a sign of desperation

David, You weren't the other intolerant individual I was referring to. Apologies if that was the impression given.

Whether three rail is beaten or not as such is debatable but it certainly is not the dominant format and is unlikely to do anything but decline.

Desperation! You bet. And I don't even model three rail.