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In depth idiot
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hornby go for it with a TT:120 range announcement. Not available in your friendly local model shop. This fits with an intent to engage completely new customers in my opinion. I will be interested to see if this is extended - logically - to no engagement with the dead tree model railway press. (Want to review it? We'll sell you one.)
 

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Yes, I also received the notification.

With the ever reducing size of UK homes and the desire for more accurate scales, I can certainly see the benefits of TT120.

However, my personal preference would have been that they doubled the scale size, not halved it!

Hornby found a way to make very good quality coaches at very reasonable prices, leading to the Hawkesworth's, Collett's, Gresley's, LMS, Bullieds and Maunsell's. If only they could do the same in the 7mm space and become the 'go to' coach supplier. Maunsell's and Collett's would sell like hot cakes!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
At least it solves the Lyddle End issue of items being returned to shops because it was too small.
Betcha Hornby get online purchased TT returned 'cos it doesn't work on my Hornby (OO) track'.:LOL:

What should focus minds at Hornby, is that with only themselves as retailer, the true scale of their TT product reliability will be quickly evident, for good or ill...

I am also curious to see if and how Hornby try to be dominant in managing 'the TT channel'. Retailers are 'out of the loop' by definition: will Hornby also give the model railway press a back seat, (buy our product if you want to review it) and put significant effort into running a dedicated TT forum.
 

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C55
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I remember, very clearly, last time that Hornby forgot to do the Maths on which outlets brought most returns for their company. Despite Hornby's managing director's best efforts, Retailers continued to be the main source of income. He got fired and replaced. Are we not supposed to learn from our mistakes?

J
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
However, what was a mistake with an established customer base wanting to purchase via retailers, doesn't apply if a new market that is solely based on direct sales from the outset can be successfully established. It's an experiment in short, and given the investment necessary to bring the product to market, one that has been budgetted. Wait and see on this aspect.
 

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An interesting development and if it had been available when I returned to model railways 23 years ago, I would have gone for TT120. Now I have an extensive OO railway and at 78 I am too old to change.
Does anyone know if the track gauge is correct for 3mm scale?
 

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C55
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Agreed that it is based on the the idea that they intend to rely on the idea of a "new" market, solely based on direct sales {if that can be established]. I also agree on the concept of an experiment to bring the product to market. I'm not sure that excluding the retailers from the equation is any more irrelevant to the sales / outlet equation is any more of an advantage than their previous attempt to do so. I can only guess that time will tell.

Julian
PS. I also have to notice that a good number of other manufacturers have seen the opportunity and rushed to place "goodies" for sale - without constraints on the outlets. I have, honestly, no idea where Hornby strategy might end up in this case. Given their last attempt to exclude the High Street retailers, I'm not confident.
 

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Does anyone know if the track gauge is correct for 3mm scale?
TT120 is not 3mm scale.
3mm scale is approx 1:101. With a scale track gauge of 14.2mm.
Old TT (Triang of 60 years ago) is to that scale, but on 12mm gauge track (in the long tradition of UK scales having under-gauge track, see OO, N, etc..).

TT120 (and TT in Europe) is 1:120 scale, track gauge of 12mm, so 2.54mm/ft.

Not really clear whether old Triang TT will work on TT120 track, because there's more to track geometry than just gauge: wheel profiles and the clearances in crossings are as important.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
...Not really clear whether old Triang TT will work on TT120 track, because there's more to track geometry than just gauge: wheel profiles and the clearances in crossings are as important.
Quite so. Peco's write up of their TT120 track and wheel standards emphasises that it is firstly true scale for gauge, and also has small flange gaps for superior appearance. It remains to be seen exactly what that means for the end product, but I doubt the 1960 steamroller wheels of Triang TT are compatible with this track. There will doubtless be an enthusiast somewhere busy planning a wheel re-profiling campaign, I wish him or her well...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
...Not really clear whether old Triang TT will work on TT120 track, because there's more to track geometry than just gauge: wheel profiles and the clearances in crossings are as important.
And returning to this question, now I have had the chance to compare photrographs of the Peco and Hornby track offerings, specifically the point work. To employ terms many will be familiar with, the Peco product is 'fine', the Hornby 'coarse'.

Just one look at the flange gaps and wheel profile of the announced Hornby TT120 product tells all, it looks much like the old OO Super 4; consequently I doubt that the Hornby wheels will run through the Peco TT120 points, which are visually comparable to OO code 75 FB Streamline.

Two not fully compatible TT120 product groups in short.
 

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And returning to this question, now I have had the chance to compare photrographs of the Peco and Hornby track offerings, specifically the point work. To employ terms many will be familiar with, the Peco product is 'fine', the Hornby 'coarse'.

Just one look at the flange gaps and wheel profile of the announced Hornby TT120 product tells all, it looks much like the old OO Super 4; consequently I doubt that the Hornby wheels will run through the Peco TT120 points, which are visually comparable to OO code 75 FB Streamline.

Two not fully compatible TT120 product groups in short.
I thought we were told that TT120 would be true scale and the solution to everything!
IF we have two not fully compatible product groups, how is that going to align with 'scale' outside valve-gear steam locos?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Let's take this in 'two bites'.
I thought we were told that TT120 would be true scale and the solution to everything!...
That's Peco's pitch for their TT120 track and wheel standards, as I read it.

...IF we have two not fully compatible product groups, how is that going to align with 'scale' outside valve-gear steam locos?
On this matter, it should be kept in mind this is solely my opinion based on what I have seen in Peco's and Hornby's pictures of their track systems, specifically the points; anyone online can make the comparison and decide for themself, which I would encourage: it's always good to have multiple eyes on.
What I perceive:
Peco's point, very narrow flange gap and live crossing.
Hornby's point, larger flange gap and dead crossing.

There's no way of assessing the wheelsets (Peco or Hornby) from the material available.

Maybe there is compatability between their systems, but the appearance of the points doesn't fill me with confidence. Hey-ho, not buying this product, it will be for others to find out - one way or another - once the products are on sale.
 

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And returning to this question, now I have had the chance to compare photrographs of the Peco and Hornby track offerings, specifically the point work. To employ terms many will be familiar with, the Peco product is 'fine', the Hornby 'coarse'.

Just one look at the flange gaps and wheel profile of the announced Hornby TT120 product tells all, it looks much like the old OO Super 4; consequently I doubt that the Hornby wheels will run through the Peco TT120 points, which are visually comparable to OO code 75 FB Streamline.

Two not fully compatible TT120 product groups in short.
No so sure about that, I would be pretty sure that Hornby and PECO actually “had a chat” about this new scale/gauge long before we even had a sniff of something going on. Hornby would be quite happy to let the “train set” starters buy and use their track (and track mats etc) for childrens/starter layout, and let PECO supply the more sophisticated track for the enthusiasts further along, I think they would have realised the two can run parallel (no pun intended) and neither steals much thunder from either, in fact to have a broader range of track (Locos and accessories) can only be good for both.

The Hornby track indeed does look quite poor regards detail for scale, the PECO track is just like their other track, almost a benchmark for others.
 
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In depth idiot
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
...I would be pretty sure that Hornby and PECO actually “had a chat” about this new scale/gauge long before we even had a sniff of something going on. Hornby would be quite happy to let the “train set” starters buy and use their track (and track mats etc) for childrens/starter layout, and let PECO supply the more sophisticated track for the enthusiasts further along, I think they would have realised the two can run parallel (no pun intended) and neither steals much thunder from either, in fact to have a broader range of track (Locos and accessories) can only be good for both.

The Hornby track indeed does look quite poor regards detail for scale, the PECO track is just like their other track, almost a benchmark for others.
Our opinions are much alike in respect of the above. The question I have is whether the Hornby product will run 'out of the box' on the Peco track. Won't know until the products are available for trialling...

On a side note, Gaugemaster have 'bowed out' on TT120, so it's just Hornby and Peco now.
 

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Our opinions are much alike in respect of the above. The question I have is whether the Hornby product will run 'out of the box' on the Peco track.

On a side note, Gaugemaster have 'bowed out' on TT120, so it's just Hornby and Peco now.
I’ll wager it will, I read somewhere it will be to “fine scale” ie not course, standards.
 

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TT120 is not 3mm scale.
Hi. So we have 4mm, 3mm, TT120 and 2mm as well as P4, EM in 4mm. I get the history of the last two but why didn't Peco and Hornby develop 3mm as there is already a market although I have no idea how big that is. Or is there some legal reason that they could not they must have done some research into the potential markets?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
The old Triang TT was 3mm scale on 12mm gauge track, and was a short lived UK only product, hasn't had significant RTR support for nearly 60 years. It is an ex-parrot, it has ceased to be...

Whereas TT:120 is a well established product in Europe, originating from East Germany, there's a fair amount of RTR mainland European prototype support. So this is potentially an attempt to have UK product to a common standard with an existing European standard.
 

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Hi. So we have 4mm, 3mm, TT120 and 2mm as well as P4, EM in 4mm. I get the history of the last two but why didn't Peco and Hornby develop 3mm as there is already a market although I have no idea how big that is. Or is there some legal reason that they could not they must have done some research into the potential markets?
One guess would be that it was deliberately completely different to prevent someone trying to run 'steamroller-wheeled' 1960s era TT (3mm) scale rolling stock, and try to make clear that this was not intended to be compatible.

That said; it does unfortunately mean that the (albeit small) 3mm finescale kit etc market is not available to anyone who chooses to adopt TT120....
 
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