Hornby TT:120

11710 Views 62 Replies 16 Participants Last post by kristopher1805, 29 d ago

34C

Discussion Starter · 8 mo ago

Hornby go for it with a TT:120 range announcement. Not available in your friendly local model shop. This fits with an intent to engage completely new customers in my opinion. I will be interested to see if this is extended - logically - to no engagement with the dead tree model railway press. (Want to review it? We'll sell you one.)

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TT120

· #41 · 7 mo ago

It doesn't matter what business you are in, if you can't get your product out to customers you are in trouble, especially if they are brand new customers responding to an advert in the newspapers, they will likely give Hornby the one chance!
I was looking forward to giving TT a go but if the supply is going to be so problematic I'll be happy to keep my money in my pocket and stick with 00.

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PAPPA.B

· #42 · 7 mo ago

As much as the extra space TT offers it will be a long time before there is any amount of different types to be had. That is providing the first sales are sufficiently enough to warrant further investment. For me just about to start my layout build in OO with almost all my stock not having been run on a layout why would I change now. This must be the case for many modellers this seems to me to be a massive gamble. Hornby have a big range of coaches but there are still many types not being modelled in RTR.

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Ten2Fiver

· #43 · 6 mo ago

As a pensioner returning to the hobby I have been planning a OO gauge layout for the last year and have slowly collected 8 new locos at mostly bargain prices together with several rakes of second hand coaches and a fair bit more second hand rolling stock to add to my 80s collection based on an expanded King Set with 5 old locos. I have designed what I think is an interesting twin track layout (2.5m x 2.5m x 0.5m) to run around the walls of the spare bedroom/home office and in order to finally get going I need to purchase all new NS track to replace and increase my old steel stuff which is in a poor condition. Finally I want to buy a Gaugemaster twin track controller with simulation.

In order to make the layout sufficiently interesting for running trains most of the space will be covered by track/sidings etc leaving very little room for scenery and buildings. So my OO layout will be something of a compromise.

However the launch of the new Hornby TT120 scale has given me a big dilemma.

For not much more than the cost of the new OO track and controller I can buy 2 of the new TT120 train sets, 2 further locos, rolling stock and sufficient track for a much better and more realistic layout, I suppose I fall into one of the groups that Hornby are targeting ie: those that do not have the space for a really good layout due to down sizing the house.

However as always there are pros and cons. On the one hand I will miss not being able to run my recently acquired OO 4-6-0s, 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s as it will be some considerable time before TT120 can offer these, while on the other hand I will enjoy a much better and more interesting layout allbeit with limited stock initially

I really think Hornby have got this right. When they started planning their TT120 launch back in 2017 they were not to know of the pandemic or the current the cost of living crisis so they have had no choice but to launch now anyway. I also think there is a big untapped market out their including newcomers to the hobby who will be happy to add to their sets as time goes by. They are not targeting well established OO modelers as they still want to sell their own 00 range. But my guess is that this is a deceasing market for Hornby as their main customers are actually dying out each year that passes and they have increasing competition in OO gauge from other manufacturers and indeed some of their largest retailers.

They are also right to sell directly on-line to launch the product. This should not affect the retailers as what they never had cannot be missed. Apart from a handful of large retailers it is unlikely that the smaller model shop would have the means to stock the full range in any case due to lack of space and funds. My guess is that once established in a few year time TT120 will be made available to the retailer. Finally by going direct on line Hornby can offer TT120 at reasonable prices as there is no middle man to pay and they can totally control discounting and special offers.

Any advice on what to decide?

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Nigel2001

· #44 · 6 mo ago

Ten2Fiver said:
As a pensioner returning to the hobby I have .... slowly collected 8 new locos at mostly bargain prices together with several rakes of second hand coaches and a fair bit more second hand rolling stock..........

However the launch of the new Hornby TT120 scale has given me a big dilemma.

.........
Any advice on what to decide?

If modelling UK outline, how long do you want to wait for your layout and the stock to run on it ?

If OO, then it could run with variety of stock today/tomorrow. Or next week. Or early 2023. Or any date of your choice.

If TT120, when will Hornby have a reasonable range of locos and stock to do what you want ?
Reading the Hornby catalogue on their website, and I can't see how to run anything other than express passenger trains, and a handful of inappropriately mixed freight trains without the right sort of locos to pull those freight trains. Nothing for local passenger working, nothing for realistic freight working (of any era, be it 1950 or 2020).

If you're happy to use European outline stock on a TT120 layout, then there is lots to choose from, been on sale for years from Tillig and other brands. Could have a layout running almost instantly with those.

- Nigel

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Ten2Fiver

· #45 · 6 mo ago

Hi Nigel

Thanks for your reply. You have put your finger exactly on the important choices.

Therefore despite the great advantage of scale to allow for a really good layout, I have come to the conclusion to stick with OO as I am getting too old to wait for a decent range of locos & stock. With this in mind I am redesigning my layout to be more of a branch line and I may have to ditch most of the twin track to allow space for scenery etc. My main interest is from my train spotting days in the late 1950s and early 1960s around Leeds, York & Doncaster. Although express Pacifics were the main attraction in those days, for modeling, they don't look right in my opinion, with anything less than a 6 coach rake, and as I have never had the space I chose not to collect Pacifics. Modelling secondary and branch lines offers more realistic slower speeds and I think more entertainment value with country pick up services.

However I do want to keep a station with at least 3 tracks, and as many sidings as I can get in for my stock and loco sidings for my new and unused B1, B12, B17, K1, D16, D49, J50 & B2. (& my old Jinty, King, Prairie & class 37 & 29 if they will still run).

I still think the TT120 will be a success but too late for me I am afraid.

Thanks for your comments.
Mark

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PAPPA.B

· #46 · 6 mo ago

I would say that big increases in their prices and reliability issues is the biggest threat to their corner of the market. I have a lot of Hornby stock which seems to be pretty good but I have not used them since I have no layout at the moment. This is going on others experiences, I,m looking at those prices and its putting me off. I can't see those TT 120 prices being much better and as Nigel has pointed out how long will you have to wait to see more models. OO has been around a long time and there is a lot of stock out there it has survived and is still the biggest market, that is going to be hard to beat. Yeah with TT120the space is better but the stock is smaller and when you get older your ability gets a little less something maybe to be aware of. As for the 4-6-0 s why not model a Heritage railway then you can run those with less coaches. For example the GWR that is the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway run some big engines with only seven coaches. In the end it's your railway you can run what you like when you consider a King class would pull 13 + coaches how many have that kind of space. HTH and good luck with your layout . Jim

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Nigel2001

· #47 · 6 mo ago

Ten2Fiver said:
Hi Nigel

Thanks for your reply. You have put your finger exactly on the important choices.

Therefore despite the great advantage of scale to allow for a really good layout, I have come to the conclusion to stick with OO as I am getting too old to wait for a decent range of locos & stock. With this in mind I am redesigning my layout to be more of a branch line and I may have to ditch most of the twin track to allow space for scenery etc. My main interest is from my train spotting days in the late 1950s and early 1960s around Leeds, York & Doncaster. Although express Pacifics were the main attraction in those days, for modeling, they don't look right in my opinion, with anything less than a 6 coach rake, and as I have never had the space I chose not to collect Pacifics. Modelling secondary and branch lines offers more realistic slower speeds and I think more entertainment value with country pick up services.
.........

I have one thought, and whether it works depends on the layout design. That is perspective modelling. An OO branch/freight operation in the foreground, and further back in distance, a TT mainline with expresses running around on it. The modelling needs to blend from 1:176 to 1:120 between the two, which may mean the odd 1:100 building, but much of it can be done by view blocking (eg. buildings with the scene behind them not visible, rises in land with scene behind lost, and then the 1:120 rises behind that).

It only works in some designs, and some viewing positions. There are lots of very good layouts around that use perspective modelling - of the "big famous" ones: Copenhagen Fields.

TT120

· #48 · 5 mo ago

Membership pack received today. Going to need to find a suitable occassion to have the rather lovely lanyard on display!

I ordered the Easterner so will have to wait a little longer than the lucky folks who have already got the Scotsman

TT120

· #49 · 4 mo ago (Edited)

34C said:
Welcome! You have won the post of TT:120 correspondent.

Well there we have it, a while coming, straight out of the box, a genuine table top model railway.

First impressions, suprisingly small, which does I feel cause a compromise on visible detail, compared to 00, but a huge upside for me that I will be able to operate full length trains with stations to accomodate.

The controller is much better than those offered in the recent hornby trainpacks, I like the hi-low setting (keeps and enthusiastic child from running an A4 at a scale speed of 200mph. It also has nice connection points for 14v accesories and nice and sturdy. A bit moot for myself as I will be going DCC, but an improvement all the same.
Definitely not enough for me to give up on 00 but I am definitely going to be expanding the TT120 collection and building a substantial layout.
The question for me is do I wait now for Hornby to come out with flexi track and take advantage of the discount, or get to work straight away with peco?

Plant Flowerpot Automotive tire Road surface Wood

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34C

Discussion Starter · #50 · 4 mo ago

TT120 said:
...building a substantial layout. The question for me is do I wait now for Hornby to come out with flexi track and take advantage of the discount, or get to work straight away with peco?

Given that Hornby have never moved beyond set track for train sets, while Peco specialise in more ambitious live crossing point and flexitrack systems, I'd back the 'form horse' for a substantial layout.

TT120

· #51 · 4 mo ago

34C said:
Given that Hornby have never moved beyond set track for train sets, while Peco specialise in more ambitious live crossing point and flexitrack systems, I'd back the 'form horse' for a substantial layout.

Am leaning towards Peco, having looked at a few comparisons, better sleeper detail etc, would be good to take advantage of discount for Hornby points though

34C

Discussion Starter · #52 · 4 mo ago

Been having a look at some pictures of the product. Better than I expected, and way better than the current average in N gauge, which left me no choice but OO to assemble an East Coast RTR based layout, 'back in the day'. Now, I have space enough for OO, but if I went TT120 I could potentially have a V2 on the 26 coach train one of them once worked, and an A4 lifting 25 coaches out of my KX. In OO I have settled on 'only' 14 coaches as the practical maximum for regular operation on the layout.

(Almost tempted. What tipped the balance for me to go OO, rather than North American HO, was the new Bachmann WD 2-8-0, and their BR 16T minerals and mk1 coaches, and a declared intention from Bachmann at that time to produce a good selection of product to the same standard. With Hornby offering TT120 A3 and A4, 'all they have to do' is briskly copy Bachmann's OO ER loco programme, zap out Pepp A1, B1, J39, K3, O4, V2, WD 2-8-0, BR 9F, shoot down their own ER tank types like a J50, N2, N7, and the Gresley coaches, and we are potentially cooking with gas. Fourteen classes are all that's required for a general impression of the steam worked ECML's Grand Parade of Flamboyant Velocity that was Miles Beevor all other UK lines...)

TT120 said:
...The controller is much better than those offered in the recent hornby trainpacks, I like the hi-low setting (keeps an enthusiastic child from running an A4 at a scale speed of 200mph. It also has nice connection points for 14v accesories and nice and sturdy. A bit moot for myself as I will be going DCC, but an improvement all the same...

Forgot to reply on this aspect. A DC controller remains an asset with DCC, and especially when it comes to diagnosis of operating problems .Lost count over the years since we got online forums, of the number of questions which would be instantly resolved by testing a loco mechanism independent of DCC. But there's only a DCC system available, and not even a PP9 battery in the house for a simple DC test...

And I would gamble that if this product develops a sustained following, 'the original Hornby TT120 controller' will become a desireable item. Like it or not, the moment Gaugemaster or similar start labelling selected controller items 'TT120 compatible' by including a TT120 track connector clip, the 'cost down' process will commence at Hornby...

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kristopher1805

· #53 · 4 mo ago

Simon Kohler has bet the farm on this product and he needs a quick return on the investment so far and admits this in March Railway Modeller, trouble is now that they have done so much and gone so far then they now have 2 product ranges to satisfy and they need all the cash they can generate, inevitably this must slow down the investment in OO product and where is the new Black 5 for instance, meanwhile in creep Accurascale, Sonic and others and what to do about Oxford as well, an opportunity to get ahead is presented to Bachmann and if I were their sales manager I would rub it in with the dealers and try to get Hattons back on side and offer some new product with locos such as the J39, V4 and some others of a like effort. This is a dangerous gamble for Hornby. The other potential problem is the availability of matching product from others such as Peco who are offering buildings etc in TT120. So overall this may be a real long term problem for Hornby in the usual 10 year disaster cycle.

I also see that making LNER post WW2 vintage steamers is a problem, we old timers remember such things chuffing about the place but the target audience do not, they go back only a few years and so they want to see class 37's 47's 50's and onwards, is mum going to buy sonny a Flying Scotsman steamer set for Christmas? well I am not sure when lads these days spend all their time on ipads.

Bachmann have taken a different route, OO9 is a safer product as it shares many features with the N ranges and OO everything else, my OO9 I did not need to buy much and again Peco fill in the gaps, TT120 needs everything in comparison.

I still think it's too big a gamble for an uncertain market and I would say Kohler's job is well and truly on the line and right now the odds against are greater than the odds for. The rest of the established boring market of old gits like us need Hornby to suceed and not waste money and effort on speculative projects, we need them to do other things to improve and develop OO such as R5 and R6 radius curves, improved points better than the weak express variety etc.

We need Hornby to succeed but..................

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ade_1941

· #54 · 3 mo ago (Edited)

Does anyone know if the track gauge is correct for 3mm scale? [/QUOTE],

The Hornby TT120 track gauge is the same as Peco TT120 gauge, (apart from sleeper spacing) and the same as the old Triang gauge (track is much more course). But the model scale is inline with TT continental not the original Triang models which were more in between OO/HO and N. Actual 3mm models do use a different track gauge to TT120 - 14.2mm fine scale.

mmdent

· #55 · 3 mo ago

Graham Plowman said:
I must admit that with the way this is structured, I'm finding it challenging to work out who TT:120 is actually aimed at.

We have been told that:

- TT:120 is intended to grow the hobby and bring more people in
Is creating a whole-new very small scale the way to achieve that ?
If a small scale was the answer, why hasn't N taken over ? Could it be that N is too small ?
Is OO really too large ? Why not focus on OO ? Because the market is now saturated with products ? This is a bit of a give-away: doesn't it seem strange that a fully serviced scale doesn't seem to be 'growing the hobby' ? Why not ? Maybe this isn't the issue. Could it be that OO isn't growing Hornby's share of the market due to competition ? What's the best way to deal with that ? : create a whole new market and new scale!
While TT:120 is correct scale (ref track to trains ), are the scale discrepancies of N and OO really a concern of 'non serious' modellers ?
Perhaps the idea might be to get a whole load of people running with TT:120 and then the serious modellers will follow once they realise the correct scale ?

- TT:120 will only be available directly from Hornby.
We have been told that this enables cost reductions - which, rightly or wrongly, it probably does.
It also cuts out all retailers which in turn means that no-one visiting retailers is going to see and casually purchase.

- Advertising is going to be done in the mainstream media, not the model railway press
That cuts out all 'serious' modellers who purchase magazines. They simply won't see it.
One wonders whether TT:120 will be advertised in Hornby Magazine ?
Also depends on what 'mainstream media' means. It probably includes internet advertising which could be a very large audience. Don't forget that 'serious modellers' are also subject to 'mainstream media'.

- In years past, Railway Modeller and similar mags reputedly had readerships in the 30,000's.
I would suggest that anyone purchasing such magazines might be considered a 'more serious' modeller than most, therefore, those 30,000's would be completely missed. I'd suggest today, the figure is somewhat lower. Someone somewhere could probably locate the actual readership figures.

- I was once told that 'serious modellers' are only about 5% of the overall hobby/market
If we take a 'leap of faith' and make a 'guesstimate' that 5% is 30,000 (almost certainly a lot less), then that might make the potential hobby size around 600,000. We'll ignore the complexities of scales, countries, age groups etc for now.
With this figure, I think it is fairly obvious why Hornby are not addressing 'serious modellers'.
The question is: how will they make contact with 580,000 ? Will mainstream achieve it ? Do they know where those people are to be found etc ?

Makes total marketing sense to me. New Market segment (blue ocean if u like) - no point advertising to existing modellers - it is the newbies that Hornby are after. Have u seen the age profile stats (like Harley Davidson - a problem)

We live in interesting times!

mmdent

· #56 · 3 mo ago

TT120 said:
Well there we have it, a while coming, straight out of the box, a genuine table top model railway.

First impressions, suprisingly small, which does I feel cause a compromise on visible detail, compared to 00, but a huge upside for me that I will be able to operate full length trains with stations to accomodate.

The controller is much better than those offered in the recent hornby trainpacks, I like the hi-low setting (keeps and enthusiastic child from running an A4 at a scale speed of 200mph. It also has nice connection points for 14v accesories and nice and sturdy. A bit moot for myself as I will be going DCC, but an improvement all the same.
Definitely not enough for me to give up on 00 but I am definitely going to be expanding the TT120 collection and building a substantial layout.
The question for me is do I wait now for Hornby to come out with flexi track and take advantage of the discount, or get to work straight away with peco?
View attachment 23082

How much space wud I need for the basic layout? And if i went for track extension 4 from Hornby ? I am brand new to the hobby and don't have a big table...

ade_1941

· #57 · 3 mo ago

It is intriguing with regards who Hornby have aimed the TT120 range at,.. this range is not suitable for young children, has some issues with accuracy of models (which seem to go under the banner of production compromise?) And is it going to be a suitable range for serious modellers, at present I'm not sure. That just leaves those who want to run trains in a small space with, maybe, a good range of off-the-shelf items to do it. With regards that, noted, that Mr Kohler sought to see off any rival companies seeking to join in the TT120 revolution !!, I don't think this was, or is, wise. Hornby have now created a make or break rod for their own backs possibly, as pointed out in other posts here they have possibly compromised their established OO/HO market. Having some other companies also producing TT20 UK outline models would be a boost to the scale range I would have thought.

34C

Discussion Starter · #58 · 3 mo ago

ade_1941 said:
...I don't think this was, or is, wise. Hornby have now created a make or break rod for their own backs...

This is the way Hornby have chosen to roll the dice, we are simply spectators!

To recap on how they arrived at this point, various management blunderings over the past dozen years - not confined to model railway - resulted in a lot of red ink in their accounts. The business took on a significant loan facility compared to their earnings in order to achieve return to profitability. Clearly enough they wanted to grow the model railway segment of the business, but there is a problem in OO where they enjoy dominance in market share: there are multiple new entrants piling in for a slice of this tasty pie, and making a good job of competing against Hornby.

Hornby made some exploration of N gauge for the UK, but that clearly didn't look promising enough as it has been abandoned, and now they are experimenting with TT120. If it 'flies' commercially, you can be certain that others will join in.

ade_1941 said:
It is intriguing with regards who Hornby have aimed the TT120 range at,.. this range is not suitable for young children, has some issues with accuracy of models (which seem to go under the banner of production compromise?) And is it going to be a suitable range for serious modellers...

In commercial model railway production there is always going to be compromise in dimensions and thus accuracy; because if fully 'true scale' models are made (2mmfinescale instead of N, P87 instead of HO, S4 instead of OO, S7 instead of O) then it is necessary to use scale curve radii appropriate to whatever model is constructed.

Where that lands in TT120 is that a UK pacific, which can just about squeal its way around a 5 chain radius (330 feet) curve in reality, needs a minimum radius of 33 inches if made 'true scale'. That's a commercial dead duck for RTR products! The commercial 'escape path' is that the width dimension is 'nudged' to provide enough lateral clearance that a much smaller radius curve can be negotiated. None of this has yet put determined modellers off...

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dwb

· #59 · 3 mo ago

I have been intrigued to notice the addition of Hornby TT products to Modellbahnshop Lippe's website in the last week or two. The new Hornby Bluetooth enabled decoders are also listed.

David

34C

Discussion Starter · #60 · 3 mo ago

dwb said:
I have been intrigued to notice the addition of Hornby TT products to Modellbahnshop Lippe's website in the last week or two...

That's going to truly delight UK retailers. Shut out by Hornby, while competitors elsewhere are 'in'. (Realistically, I can see that distribution outside the Anglosphere is probably more effective this way.)

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