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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry for the delay in replying, but I've been at the Thornbury show (south Glos.) Mrs W always like a good show on a Saturday!. You appear to have a Hornby fetish Gary. You also seem to think I have an axe to grind with Hornby. I would like to state here publicly that I have nothing but admiration for the way Hornby have clawed their way back into the hobby market with a range of outstanding products. This however has nothing to do with what we were discussing with regard to their Elite DCC unit.
I would say further that by refusing to accept some of the sensible points promoted by members of this forum, and by steadfastly backing the party(Hornby) Line, you have provoked the response. Your classic response to one of my posts "that we should trust Hornby" is pure rubbish. Never ever trust any company who principle objective must be profit.

Personally I don't care if you live in Simon Kohler's pocket. The rest of us are potential Hornby customers, and we feel passionate about our Hobby, we are entitled to our view point. When we as experienced DCC users see potential problems we are entitled to raise our voices, and point out the potential pitfalls. You or nobody else has to listen, this is a forum, not a legislature, please take note there is a difference.

QUOTE Would MMaD then please confirm that he does absolutely agree that Hornby have the intent based on the specification included with Hornby marketing material for Hornby Digital to be "compatible"?

Yes Gary I've also ready and read and read, and read again the specification for the Select/Elite. The press release from the launch at the NRM as covered by the Railway Modeller does not say anything about being NMRA compliant or compatible. There's nothing about compatibility on the Hornby web site either. So I then took the supplement in Model Rail October 2006, Following the section A-Z at the bottom of the page...
under DCC it say's and I quote " Digital command control. The application of computer technology to control the movements of locomotives. Each locomotive is fitted with a decoder (or chip) which is uniquely programmed and recognises it's own identity and responds only to those control signals which are addressed to it. DCC also allows a wide range of extras including controllable lighting and on-board sound. The acccepted stamdards have been laid down by the NMRA."

It does not say that the select or the Elite is NMRA compatable, it dosn't say it either. Of course it does imply compatibility, probably in most aspects of it's operation, and nobody including me did'nt say that this wouldn't be compatible.

As I stated in one of recent posts, we'll wait and see, just what Hornby does actually come up with. I've been very clear and consistent throughout this exchange, that lack of compatibility with addressing will create long term problems for this product. That's my opinion and those of others on this forum with long time experience of DCC. I would also point out I was looking forward to buying this product to use on my study layout, I most certainly won't buy it until we have clarification on what this unit is capable of, or not capable of.
Perhaps as someone pointed out on Usenet perhaps it's biggest asset is the USB connection, and potential communication and control by computer rather than handset. What ever our stand point agitator, party official, chief whip, or opposition we all now have to wait and see.



 

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Have a look at the Hornby website again which I have quoted from:-

http://www.hornby.com/pages/hornby_digital.aspx

QUOTE Designed to be NMRA compatible

The Hornby 'Elite' supports RailCom ID detection® Lenz Syztems

Both the 'Select' and 'Elite' support 14, 28 and 128 Speed steps

Xpress Net socket for layout development

Maybe there has been a missunderstanding?

Or is the only answer to say I am Hornby's greatest fan?

Maybe I am because time after time they keep coming up with decent product at sensible prices!


As do other British companies such as Bachmann and Dapol.


Maybe you see my support for British companies generally as being support for Hornby.

Happy modelling
Gary

PS by the way I hope you enjoyed the show. Hopefully you have put a bit aside for Warley next week.
 

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QUOTE Maybe there has been a missunderstanding?

Or is the only answer to say I am Hornby's greatest fan?

Maybe I am because time after time they keep coming up with decent product at sensible prices!

As do other British companies such as Bachmann and Dapol.
The reason you're seen as Hornby's biggest fan is because you are constantly overstating their case. In global terms their product is pretty average so to speak of them the way you do raises serious questions about either your impartiality or your knowledge of the model rail world.

Bachmann are American and they are made in China so all thats British about them is the locos they make.

Also why do you keep coming back to this jingoistic flag waving approach? Is this an attempt to get people on side? I cringed when I saw that people from Europe had looked at your "is continental Europe in the dark ages" thread. This is an International forum and the impression that you are giving others is that of the xenophobic little Englander still banging on about the Germans.

The fact is, by constantly overstating Hornby, nobody takes you seriously at all where Hornby is concerned. All this over defence of Hornby really makes people ask what is going on. You've got to remember that on this forum are several people who know a lot about model rail. They're not naive and impressionable kids who have just received their first train set. You can't fool them. On the recent issue of the Hornby DCC effort, you have been offered advice by several people who know a lot about this subject but failed to listen to any of it saying that "we should trust Hornby". Like we would trust McDonalds or Ford? Yeah Right.

MMaD has got it right on the button.
 

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Maybe to balance things out, I could start a Bachmann fanclub...

QUOTE Bachmann are American and they are made in China so all thats British about them is the locos they make.
Actually, Bachmann are Chinese. Owned by the Kader group based in Hong Kong, there are three divisions: America, Europe and China. The European division has two operations: UK (Bachmann Branchline) and Continental Europe (Liliput).

Bachmann was founded in America and contracted Kader to manufacture their products. In 1984, Kader acquired the Bachmann Company.
 

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The real point is this is all a distraction from the issue in the other thread and their new argument is that I am friendly to Hornby. They take my being open minded and fair about this as showing favouritism. I will repeat that I do not start many threads at all about Hornby, Bachmann or Dapol and normally only get involved when the exchange is becoming destructive to provide balance.

If MMaD and Neil_S_Wood are so adamant that Hornby Digital is not NMRA compatible then why cannot they simply specify why not?

Please reply with your specific answer in the other thread rather than having a missguided belief of my showing any one company favouritism. I will stand any criticism of my showing favouritsm if it is a way of getting an acurate technical answer from you to the root issue here.

It is a simple request and it requires a simple straightforward answer.

If you do not know the answer then please be man enough to say that. It is not a crime to admit that you don't know.

And if you honestly don't know then why did you say that Hornby Digital is not NMRA compatible in the first place?


And ssk yourselves which is the worse crime.

To (alledgedly) show favouritism or to make an unsubstantiated comment?


Happy modelling
Gary
 

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QUOTE (Gary @ 26 Nov 2006, 10:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If MMaD and Neil_S_Wood are so adamant that Hornby Digital is not NMRA compatible then why cannot they simply specify why not?

It is a simple request and it requires a simple straightforward answer.
It is a simple question that is now awaiting an answer on two threads.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I think you need to brush up on the interpretation skills Beerhunter. I have never stated that it's a question of compatibility. It's not for any of us to specify a manufacturers product. Please read my last post and posts prior to that.

How do you expect me to specify what the manufacturer has only implied in his promotional material. It would be wilfully wrong of me to condemn a product without having seen it first hand, and having tried it.

In summary therefore we have reports of:

kids trainsets issued with a four pin plug not an issue, as if you hard wired a decoder you would only use 4 wires. It would be an issue for a decoder on general release. Standard plugs use more wires. Normally 8 pin. From illustrations the Hornby (lenz) decoder has all the necessary wires

Certain decoders TCS & MRC not responding at all to the Hornby Select so far. there maybe others, this certainly is a very serious issue and needs to clarified. This has never occurred with any other system or decoders, again this was a report, I have not personally witnessed it. However the TCS decoder is very popular, they have a great reputation from producing quality decoders. BTW TCS are issuing their own DCC control equipment shortly. Others have commentated that the lack of interchangeability maybe an attempted to tie users into the Hornby decoder.

limited addressing with CV1 on the Elite. To Quote Hornby 254 Locomotive address can be stored. Indicating that we have three digit addressing, not four which is standard with the more expensive sets. In mixing stock IE. me taking my stock to a mate who has a Hornby Select will certainly be a problem, as all my stock has four digit addressing, and sound decoders working using the same address independently.

While I'm on the subject, the decoder is a bit light weight by todays standards, with a 1amp peak loading and 0.5 amp running capacity, but that is not a Compatibility issue.

All this an much much more is available on Usenet UK.rec.models.rail it's in the public domain Beerhunter, so why don't you take the trouble to read it
 

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QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 26 Nov 2006, 16:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>me taking my stock to a mate who has a Hornby Select will certainly be a problem, as all my stock has four digit addressing, and sound decoders working using the same address independently.
Obviously he can come to you without problems. For the reverse you can reprogram the address before you go and on return need only reset a single bit in CV29 (because your original 4 digit address isn't overwritten by the 2 digit address). A little tedious, but not a major problem (and it could be automated).
 

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QUOTE Others have commentated that the lack of interchangeability maybe an attempted to tie users into the Hornby decoder.

But there is interchangeability. Please could you encourage those other users to visit here rather that encouraging those here to visit elsewhere.


We are possibly a liitle bit more independent at Model Rail Forum than at forums operated by retailers.

And if I am in bed with Simon Kohler and Hornby among those I am in bed with so what. This is no more than a relationship enjoyed by every member of the modelling press. I still pay for my stuff like everybody else and go to normal retail outlets. Its probably to the benefit of Model Rail Forum members that some of us are. Hornby's Simon Kohler may be as interested in learning of any compatibility issues as everybody else is including Bachmann!

After all Bachmann may well want their soundchip locos to run on Hornby Digital as well as Bachmann Digital!


Every company has an option of getting into bed with Model Rail Forum. There is always an open invitation at the door.

From a base of not having any and considering the number of units now sold there is certainly not a flood of negative interchangability reports.

And have no doubt that Simon Kohler will be at the Warley Show and taking questions on Hornby Digital from 18000 visitors and any help we can give him to anticipate the sort of questions and formulate answers will no doubt be appreciated. Don't forget to say that you are from Model Rail Forum when you speak to Simon and please ask his permission to quote him at Model Rail Forum before so doing!


Happy modelling
Gary
 

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QUOTE Certain decoders TCS & MRC not responding at all to the Hornby Select so far. there maybe others, this certainly is a very serious issue and needs to clarified. This has never occurred with any other system or decoders, again this was a report, I have not personally witnessed it.

QUOTE All this an much much more is available on Usenet UK.rec.models.rail it's in the public domain Beerhunter, so why don't you take the trouble to read it

Which I've just done.

Frankly the thread was a fact-free zone. It began by a cut and paste of the Adrain Hall email with which we are now wearily familiar. No further facts were adduced by anyone, though there was a certain amount of negative inference and irrelevant technicatities about wave shapes and their effect on the environment . The only person in the thread with access to a Select unit (John Turner, who posted the inial message point blank refused to take one out of its box and test whether it did or did not work with a TCS decoder.

There is no report that I am aware of , that says MRC decoders do not work with the Select. The Hall email did claim that Hornby decoders were not read by a Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance (a version of which is sold by MRC in the US).

However that is a very odd claim , since the Hornby decoders have not been released yet. For the same reason , it is an unverifiable claim , made by a seller of a rival brand of decoder - "Folks I want to tell you my competitors new products are all lemons - including the ones you can't buy yet and which I recommend you don't cos they won't work for you" [ I am taking the claim Mr Hall is a TCS vendor at face value - I don't have independant evidence]

We now have first hand reports that Lenz decoders do run on the Select system . We have one first hand report on this forum that TCS decoders will run on the Select, and we await first hand reports as to whether the Select will program TCS decoders. I am not interested in speculation about unspecified fatal problems based on 3rd hand hearsay and copied messages about something a friend of a friend is alleged to have experienced . Nor am I interested in statements from Hornby - just first hand evidence from people who have actually got the kit and tested it. We don't need interpretation skills - we need hard evidence

QUOTE It would be wilfully wrong of me to condemn a product without having seen it first hand, and having tried it.

Quite
 

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QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 26 Nov 2006, 16:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>All this an much much more is available on Usenet UK.rec.models.rail it's in the public domain Beerhunter, so why don't you take the trouble to read it[/b][/color]
Why do you have to be so bloody rude? Your opening sentence is just so arrogant. How dare you talk to some one in that tone - even though it's in text. I can't believe that you talk to people like that face to face - or maybe you do. Finally, what gives you the right to assume that I know about that newsgroup and can't be bothered to read it.

I take part in many forums and have to say they you lot are the most arrogant, ill-mannered bunch around. I shan't be returning here because you are so nasty - well done.
 

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Its a fair cop MMaD.

All you had to do was answer the simple question:-

QUOTE If MMaD and Neil_S_Wood are so adamant that Hornby Digital is not NMRA compatible then why cannot they simply specify why not?

It is a simple request and it requires a simple straightforward answer.

It was a bit out of order taking it out on Beerhunter who simply wanted the same question answered as myself.

Either Hornby Digital is designed to be NMRA compatible or it isn't and if not how is it not.

Or do you now fully accept that Hornby Digital is designed to be NMRA compatible?


The least you can now do is apologise even if you cannot accept the above. This is all now getting to the stage of farce!


To be blunt I sense that many of us are getting a bit tired of all this wriggling and squirming and inuendo. We simply want your next post to be a straightforward yes you do accept or no you don't accept that Hornby Digital is designed to be NMRA compatible.

It should be simple for you to answer this as it very clearly states the answer on the Hornby website!

I'll even remind you of the page to look at on the Hornby website:-

http://www.hornby.com/pages/hornby_digital.aspx

Happy modelling
Gary
 

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What is it about this hobby that breeds such attitudes.
I am fed up of reading and hearing modellers whinging about their hobby or fellow modellers

A hobby is to enjoy not endure !!

All I ever seem to read or hear these days are people taking the p*** out of products or other modellers whether founded or unfounded.

When I first started reading this forum I thought it was a breath of fresh air as everyone enjoyed the banter and information. Alas its starting to slide into the depths.
I enjoy my hobby, it helps me to escape life and its stresses, I don't need/want to read endless bickering.

I wonder if I will come back to view or participate in this forum again, I don't need this.
 

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QUOTE If MMaD and Neil_S_Wood are so adamant that Hornby Digital is not NMRA compatible then why cannot they simply specify why not?

The initial reports we are getting seem to substantiate this may be the case. MMaD has pointed out where you can source this info so I am not going to repeat this, especially when you are not going to read it as you obviously haven't read anything posted by DCC users on the Select thread.

My issue was not whether it was NMRA compatible or not, it was why restrict yourself to such a basic system when there are far better beginner systems which are proven and NMRA compatible out there. The Hornby system is based on specs which are five years old and a bit out of date. It may well turn out to be NMRA compatible but it's poor spec's will never improve.

QUOTE From a base of not having any and considering the number of units now sold there is certainly not a flood of negative interchangability reports
That is because the kind of people who buy the Hornby system would probably be new to DCC and have nothing to compare it with as evidenced by the people defending Hornby here.

QUOTE Or do you now fully accept that Hornby Digital is designed to be NMRA compatible?
It may be designed to be but as has been said previously lets wait and see if it really is. MMaD said this a couple of days ago on the select thread but this seems to be dragging on and on. Only time will tell if it is or not. The key thing is it needs to be tested by someone who knows about DCC not a novice. Then we can get a better idea of it's capabilities and limitations.

Maybe it's time to draw a line under this until we get more info. My guess, as I said previously on the other thread, is that we will not find out until Hornby DCC user choose to upgrade and use it with another system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Obviously he can come to you without problems. For the reverse you can reprogram the address before you go and on return need only reset a single bit in CV29 (because your original 4 digit address isn't overwritten by the 2 digit address). A little tedious, but not a major problem (and it could be automated).
Mark
I a bit of a problem if like me for example you have two decoders in one loco, yes it can be done but I would'nt bother. In lot of my sound loco's i have a driver decoder in the loco, and the sound working from the same Cv in the tender. hope that explains.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
As for the rest of the fan mail..............I'm not going to try and post a reply, I think this subject had been over cooked.

BTW Beerhunter I replied in the same manner you addressed me.
 

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QUOTE (Gary @ 26 Nov 2006, 04:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Have a look at the Hornby website again which I have quoted from:-

http://www.hornby.com/pages/hornby_digital.aspx

Gary,

You have now posted this 'spec' several times.
Is it not obvious to you that one of the most important factors relating to compatibility, namely that of a statement of 2 vs 4 digit addressing is missing from your quote ?

Personally, I have not been making an issue of whether Hornby systems are NMRA compliant or otherwise as that isn't the most important issue. The fact that select is only two digit is presently the single most factor which determines its compatibility with other systems - other manufacturers change from 2 to 4 digit addressing between 5 and 10 years ago!

Graham Plowman
 

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QUOTE (Mark Thornton @ 27 Nov 2006, 02:22) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Obviously he can come to you without problems. For the reverse you can reprogram the address before you go and on return need only reset a single bit in CV29 (because your original 4 digit address isn't overwritten by the 2 digit address). A little tedious, but not a major problem (and it could be automated).

Why bother! If it was compatible with international norms (ie 4 digit) none of this messing around would be necessary at all!
This is exactly the problem two digit systems bring us and on the international stage because 4 digit is the norm, these issues have long since been confined to the anals of history.

Graham Plowman
 
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