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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,
Does anyone know the types of saddle tankers used at the ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) of Billingham, Cleveland, UK. The first article in the company news paper "Billingham Post" 14 Feb 1957 describes one as being built in 1921 No. 34 "Mersey" in service for a total of 35 years at Huddersfield & then Billingham, soon to be scrapped. The second type is described in the same paper 9 Mar 1961 as one of 18 locos, this one No. 26 again being replaced in this case with a Rolls-Royce engined diesel-hydraulic "Sentinel" loco.
I was just starting work in 1959 and can remember seeing the steam locos all around the site in their Billingham livery of Blue & Yellow. I would be very interested to know if anyone can identify the two loco types and where they may be aquired as 7mm kits if they are available and more difficult how the Blue & Yellow livery was applied ie. what did they look like, Blue boilers & Yellow saddles or what. I wasn't interested back then?
I have to poor pictures scanned from these papers but I could not post them with this topic. A long shot I know but if you worked their or have a particular interest in these types of industrial work horses I may be just lucky. I am just starting to get interested in 7mm
 

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There are a number of books on industrial steam locos which I have seen in my county library's reserve collection. A visit to your local library or on-line consultation of their database may throw up something of use.

The only book I have to hand is the Shire Publication's "Industrial Steam Locomotives" written by Geoffery Hayes Shire Album 235, 2nd ed. published 1998. This refers to 'The Industrial Locomotive Society' as a source of information but has no web-site details. Neither does it have a photo of any loco formerly at Billingham.

"Railways Restored" published by Ian Allan annually in March details most locos at the 100+ preserved railways round Britain, many of which are industrial locos, particularly at the smaller sites.

Regards,
John Webb
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
QUOTE (PaulRhB @ 17 Feb 2008, 19:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Soory I've checked my library but no identity found for this location, the industrial railway society probably has a publication taht covers it though so I'd recommend contacting them. They do some excellent booklets and if you can find out what type they were then these two manufacturers might have what you are looking for.

http://www.modelrailways.tv/standard_gauge/industrial.htm

http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/catalogue/agenoria.shtml

Sorry I couldn't be more help.
Thanks John & Paul I have made some enquiries as you suggeted of published works will have to wait to see what appears. I also checked out the two web sites. I have looked long and hard at Agenoria for some time but the other was infact new to me this looks a strong contender if I can identify the locos, thanks again for the info.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
QUOTE (0-6-0ST @ 18 Feb 2008, 19:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks John & Paul I have made some enquiries as you suggeted of published works will have to wait to see what appears. I also checked out the two web sites. I have looked long and hard at Agenoria for some time but the other was infact new to me this looks a strong contender if I can identify the locos, thanks again for the info.
As Paul suggested I contacted the Industrial Railway Society(IRS) and received a reply to an e-mail almost immediately from Bob at the IRS with details of the actual locos I enquired about. I was hoping that from the two loco kit sites noted previously, someone, Paul perhaps, could identify a likely choice to represent these industrial locos.
Some of the additional information Bob of IRS gave is as follows, No.34 named "MERSEY" was built by Hudswell Clarke of Leeds in 1921, and was a small four-coupled saddle tank -works number 1422, it was delivered new to British Dyestuffs, Huddesfield then to Billingham, the only one of it's type their & the second was No.26 - named "FORTH", was built by Hawthorn Leslie of Newcastle in 1928 and was another four-coupled saddle tank - works number 3735.
As you will understand my limited knowledge of these locos would make it very difficult for me to select a kit which would make a good representation of the site locos. I understand that there are many differences but as near as are available will suffice.
Neil
 

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QUOTE (0-6-0ST @ 25 Feb 2008, 14:25) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As you will understand my limited knowledge of these locos would make it very difficult for me to select a kit which would make a good representation of the site locos. I understand that there are many differences but as near as are available will suffice.
Neil
I'll have a look through my books and see if I can find a likely candidate, the advantage is that each manufacturer had a distinct style so although there were detail differences this usually meant they were very similar. Things like style of buffer and bufferbeam, cab window shape, special profile cabs etc were fairly common variations while some orders required new locos for special conditions like low clearances as at the Port of Parr.

See what I can find.
These two from Agenoria look promising,

Hudswell Clarke 14" 0-4-0ST ( from 1929 they made the larger 20" version where the saddletank covered the smaokebox as well as the boiler).

Code name: 'Nellie'. Kit no: AM6/4 for 4mm; AM6/7 for 7mm.
Prices: Basic (Complete) kit - 4mm: £67.50 (£97.50), 7mm: £99 (£156)

Hawthorn Leslie 0-4-0ST

Code name: 'Kitchener'. Kit no: AM4/4 for 4mm; AM4/7 for 7mm.
Prices: Basic (Complete) kit - 4mm: £67.50 (£97.50), 7mm: £99 (£156)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
QUOTE (PaulRhB @ 25 Feb 2008, 14:35) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'll have a look through my books and see if I can find a likely candidate, the advantage is that each manufacturer had a distinct style so although there were detail differences this usually meant they were very similar. Things like style of buffer and bufferbeam, cab window shape, special profile cabs etc were fairly common variations while some orders required new locos for special conditions like low clearances as at the Port of Parr.

See what I can find.
These two from Agenoria look promising,

Hudswell Clarke 14" 0-4-0ST ( from 1929 they made the larger 20" version where the saddletank covered the smaokebox as well as the boiler).

Code name: 'Nellie'. Kit no: AM6/4 for 4mm; AM6/7 for 7mm.
Prices: Basic (Complete) kit - 4mm: £67.50 (£97.50), 7mm: £99 (£156)

Hawthorn Leslie 0-4-0ST

Code name: 'Kitchener'. Kit no: AM4/4 for 4mm; AM4/7 for 7mm.
Prices: Basic (Complete) kit - 4mm: £67.50 (£97.50), 7mm: £99 (£156)Thanks for the information, I have just looked at Agenoria and the AM7 appears to be a good choice for No. 26 the Hawthorne Leslie loco, will be glad of all the information you can unearth.
Neil
 

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QUOTE (0-6-0ST @ 25 Feb 2008, 15:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks for the information, I have just looked at Agenoria and the AM7 appears to be a good choice for No. 26 the Hawthorne Leslie loco, will be glad of all the information you can unearth.
Neil
AM7 's an 0-6-0 check your numbers or you'll have a very nice but wrong loco

I think you've missed out the number and just got the scale ref.

Been checking various lists to see if one of them survived but I can't find either.

AM6 / 7 (o gauge) sounds like a good option for this loco - Hudswell Clarke of Leeds in 1921 - as it's works number is earlier than the ones for the 20" versions as well as fitting in the date.

AM 4 / 7 (o gauge) sounds like a good option for this loco - Hawthorn Leslie of Newcastle in 1928.

If you eventually find a photo you might find there are detail differences but I strongly suspect that they will be of these basic designs as the date built fits with these locos being in the builders catalogue. Industries like ICI tended to buy off the shelf standard designs as they were just looking at shunting locos and the plant would be built around a standard loading gauge as most traffic would be incoming supplies or outgoing product to run on or off the mainline.
Other industries may use large fleets of internal user only stock, especially mining as they had large networks serving several pits or mines, and sometimes due to limited clearances or other factors required special order locos.
Did you ask the IRS if they have any photos of these locos in any books?

This quote, "Hudswell Clarke . . . .the only one of it's type there" may be a bit misleading as I think it is refering to this site only, not it being the only on of it's type.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
QUOTE (PaulRhB @ 25 Feb 2008, 17:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>AM7 's an 0-6-0 check your numbers or you'll have a very nice but wrong loco

I think you've missed out the number and just got the scale ref.

Been checking various lists to see if one of them survived but I can't find either.

AM6 / 7 (o gauge) sounds like a good option for this loco - Hudswell Clarke of Leeds in 1921 - as it's works number is earlier than the ones for the 20" versions as well as fitting in the date.

AM 4 / 7 (o gauge) sounds like a good option for this loco - Hawthorn Leslie of Newcastle in 1928.

If you eventually find a photo you might find there are detail differences but I strongly suspect that they will be of these basic designs as the date built fits with these locos being in the builders catalogue. Industries like ICI tended to buy off the shelf standard designs as they were just looking at shunting locos and the plant would be built around a standard loading gauge as most traffic would be incoming supplies or outgoing product to run on or off the mainline.
Other industries may use large fleets of internal user only stock, especially mining as they had large networks serving several pits or mines, and sometimes due to limited clearances or other factors required special order locos.
Did you ask the IRS if they have any photos of these locos in any books?

This quote, "Hudswell Clarke . . . .the only one of it's type there" may be a bit misleading as I think it is refering to this site only, not it being the only on of it's type.
Your correct on all counts Paul.
I have looked at the right loco but miss quoted the reference number from Agenoria AM 4/7 (O gauge) is what I believe is the correct loco.
I also miss quoted Bob from IRS. He did explain that this loco the "Hudswell Clarke" was the only one of it's type at Billingham, bought new at Dystuffs, Huddersfield before being passed on to Billingham, not a unique loco. He explained Billingham mostly likely were supplied from Hawthorn Leslie as a rule. Between 50 -60 were busy around the site(s) at Billingham.
I have two poor newspaper clippings of No. 34 & 26 and from the advice received I believe the suggestions will make very good choices.
Just background information I don't think any of the site locos where modified as all to my recolection ran in and out of standard sidings, sheds, loading points etc. The only special loco was at a site of coking ovens which looked very strange, narrow I believe with a huge ram on the front to push out the roasted coke, very spectacular but ceased operation very early in my time at ICI (not my fault I hasten to add)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
QUOTE (PaulRhB @ 25 Feb 2008, 17:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>AM7 's an 0-6-0 check your numbers or you'll have a very nice but wrong loco

I think you've missed out the number and just got the scale ref.

Been checking various lists to see if one of them survived but I can't find either.

AM6 / 7 (o gauge) sounds like a good option for this loco - Hudswell Clarke of Leeds in 1921 - as it's works number is earlier than the ones for the 20" versions as well as fitting in the date.

AM 4 / 7 (o gauge) sounds like a good option for this loco - Hawthorn Leslie of Newcastle in 1928.

If you eventually find a photo you might find there are detail differences but I strongly suspect that they will be of these basic designs as the date built fits with these locos being in the builders catalogue. Industries like ICI tended to buy off the shelf standard designs as they were just looking at shunting locos and the plant would be built around a standard loading gauge as most traffic would be incoming supplies or outgoing product to run on or off the mainline.
Other industries may use large fleets of internal user only stock, especially mining as they had large networks serving several pits or mines, and sometimes due to limited clearances or other factors required special order locos.
Did you ask the IRS if they have any photos of these locos in any books?

This quote, "Hudswell Clarke . . . .the only one of it's type there" may be a bit misleading as I think it is refering to this site only, not it being the only on of it's type.
Your correct on all counts Paul.
I have looked at the right loco but miss quoted the reference number from Agenoria AM 4/7 (O gauge) is what I believe is the correct loco.
I also miss quoted Bob from IRS. He did explain that this loco the "Hudswell Clarke" was the only one of it's type at Billingham, bought new at Dystuffs, Huddersfield before being passed on to Billingham, not a unique loco. He explained Billingham mostly likely were supplied from Hawthorn Leslie as a rule. Between 50 -60 were busy around the site(s) at Billingham.
I have two poor newspaper clippings of No. 34 & 26 and from the advice received I believe the suggestions will make very good choices.
Just background information I don't think any of the site locos where modified as all to my recolection ran in and out of standard sidings, sheds, loading points etc. The only special loco was at a site of coking ovens which looked very strange, narrow I believe with a huge ram on the front to push out the roasted coke, very spectacular but ceased operation very early in my time at ICI (not my fault I hasten to add)
My earliest experience of site locos was as a messenger boy on a bike. I broke my arm very badly whilst crossing a multi rail crossing of rail sleepers in the pouring rain. I was off work 7 weeks, I only started 4 weeks earlier. This was used in site induction training as what not to do. I got a lot of stick for that. No one said that they employed this child as a site messenger boy who had never ridden a bike in his life before, no one asked me!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
QUOTE (PaulRhB @ 26 Feb 2008, 14:08) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Well if you go ahead with the project post some pictures.

I would have posted the pictures, poor as they are, of these 2 locos earlier but although I have experience of computers my web / internet tech is sadly lacking. When I tried to add pictures to my posting a box was presented asking for a web address / "url" I believe. I do not know how to do this, sorry.
Neil
 

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QUOTE When I tried to add pictures to my posting a box was presented asking for a web address / "url" I believe. I do not know how to do this, sorry.

Don't apologise, this has got to be the single most FAQ on the Forum. The way images in posts work on this Forum for ordinary members is that the image must already be accessible on the Internet; hence the request for a web address / url. In other words you have to upload the image some where else first, "capture" the address and then use that to reference it from your post. The two most commonly used upload sites on this Forum appear to be PhotoBucket and ImageShack. These are free to use so there's no cost involved.

If you need more help, do ask as I would like to see some photos too.

David
 

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As David says you need a web hosting, I use photobucket, just google it.
Registering is very simple and then you just select the photos and tell it to upload, which takes a few seconds or minutes depending on the image size and numbers. Then when uploaded you are offered this sort of dispaly,



simply click on the img line and it's automatically copied to your clipboard and then just paste the code into your post, (as I did to get the image above)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
QUOTE (PaulRhB @ 28 Feb 2008, 18:41) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As David says you need a web hosting, I use photobucket, just google it.
Registering is very simple and then you just select the photos and tell it to upload, which takes a few seconds or minutes depending on the image size and numbers. Then when uploaded you are offered this sort of dispaly,



simply click on the img line and it's automatically copied to your clipboard and then just paste the code into your post, (as I did to get the image above)
Hi,
These are the two images mentioned in my posts on ICI saddle tankers and livery.


Most of the information is from Bob at the IRS, thanks again. I hope these are readable not too hot on quality though.
 

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They look interesting. Thanks for posting them.


David
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
QUOTE (dwb @ 28 Feb 2008, 21:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>They look interesting. Thanks for posting them.


David
Hi,
I need some {more} advice before starting on my Saddle tank kit, if I go ahead, on Soldering.
Previous intersts, hobbies and work {dim and distant} involved soldering which means I have a collection of irons and associated tools but wiring and electronics have different requirements to that of brass kit assembly.
My current arsenal of soldering irons varies from a 15watt fine bit Antex through a couple of 25/35watts to a Weller instant which I don't like. What kind of iron(s) do most kit builders use and bit shape and just as important is it tape solder as I am trying with painted on flux or is it fine cored pre fluxed solder. I have also looked at the mini gas torch type units? One last query on flux I have been advised to use White metal flux? and low melt solder for white metal and the same flux for the Brass to Brass would you agree with this.
 

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QUOTE (0-6-0ST @ 1 Mar 2008, 18:27) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>My current arsenal of soldering irons varies from a 15watt fine bit Antex through a couple of 25/35watts to a Weller instant which I don't like. What kind of iron(s) do most kit builders use and bit shape and just as important is it tape solder as I am trying with painted on flux or is it fine cored pre fluxed solder. I have also looked at the mini gas torch type units? One last query on flux I have been advised to use White metal flux? and low melt solder for white metal and the same flux for the Brass to Brass would you agree with this.
The 35 watt iron might just do it but I use a 45 watt or 60 watt iron for etch kits with a gas powered 70 watt iron for big bits as you can use the flame to heat larger areas.
I use either a chisel or wedge shaped bit to give a good area to transfer the heat to the brass and clean it up after if there is any solder from where the bit was in contact.
Carrs green label flux is good (available from C&L finescale or Mainly trains) but you do need to wash the residue off before painting. I use resin core solder for the brass and would advise that if you use that then when you attach whitemetal bits, with low melt, there is no danger of melting the stuff joining the brass. I still use Epoxy or a decent superglue for adding whitemetal details but that's because I never seem to get soldering brass to whitemetal right so practice still needed for me too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
QUOTE (PaulRhB @ 2 Mar 2008, 07:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The 35 watt iron might just do it but I use a 45 watt or 60 watt iron for etch kits with a gas powered 70 watt iron for big bits as you can use the flame to heat larger areas.
I use either a chisel or wedge shaped bit to give a good area to transfer the heat to the brass and clean it up after if there is any solder from where the bit was in contact.
Carrs green label flux is good (available from C&L finescale or Mainly trains) but you do need to wash the residue off before painting. I use resin core solder for the brass and would advise that if you use that then when you attach whitemetal bits, with low melt, there is no danger of melting the stuff joining the brass. I still use Epoxy or a decent superglue for adding whitemetal details but that's because I never seem to get soldering brass to whitemetal right so practice still needed for me too.
Thanks for the guidance again. I thought that the iron I was using was running out of steam ugh! I am not sure I will continue attempting to solder white metal when I should be able to achieve a convincing joint with a resin of glue. My local tool store had a very limited range of irons many upto 25watt then nothing until 80watt a huge beast. I'll just hang on and look further afield.
 
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