[Dennis David]

It seems that way sometimes but then again I'll assume it was just an open observation meant to incite comment. I'm sure I've made remarks that may read different to certain readers than what I had intended. That's the challenge when you have an international audience and I would rather encourage discussion than have anyone afraid to put forward their opinions regardless of how moronic they may seem.

I for one won't let that stop me.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE I would rather encourage discussion than have anyone afraid to put forward their opinions regardless of how moronic they may seem.

I for one won't let that stop me.

Fair enough.

 

[dwb]

I came across this French website this evening. It looks like the "master" site for the French equivalent of the MRC here. Unfortunately my French is rather weak, so I can't be sure. Perhaps Doug can say?

David

PS. For Dennis: Check out this roundhouse!

I wonder where they get their kit?
DWB

 

[Dennis David]

Man o man that's a gorgeous facility!

Looks like the roundhouse is custom built. The unity of the buildings are fabulous. Check out the control panel, that's just nasty.

BTW,

I got a bid in for the 15-16th stalls of my roundhouse. I'm think of making mine steam only as well and have a two-stall shed for my electrics.

 

[dwb]

>I got a bid in for the 15-16th stalls of my roundhouse
All the best; I hope you get it.

You should explore the other stuff around that French site - there are some pretty amazing model photos on there. Check out the stuff on the 2006 model fair. I shouldn't really bring this subject up, but there is a truly enormous US based model in 3 rail HO and it's computer controlled. The site is "frame based" and I haven't been able to get a URL from it, otherwise I'd post yet another link here.

The trouble is, I can't find any details for 2007. It seems to be held around Easter time, and if they maintain the standard year on year, would be well worth a visit from the UK.

David

 

[Ravenser]

From what I can understand (my French is fair , at least for reading) this is the French national federation of clubs, though I gather from some old copies of Loco-Revue only about a third of French clubs actually belong.

So not really like the MRC , which is just another club , albeit a large old and relatively prestigeous.

I think they also have a module standard somewhere , but you had to pay 70FR to get it , so don't know what it says..

Going back to the ebay stats , they sound about right . Hornby were quoted somewhere (on here?) as saying the German market was about 6 times the value of the UK market. Given that prices for German model railway stuff are so much higher than for British outline, and quite a large segment of the hobby in the UK is into finescale and basically doesn't buy much RTR, it may be nearer 3:1 in terms of modellers

 

[Dennis David]

That sounds reasonable.

 

[Rail-Rider]

The most fundamental misconception in this topic is this
QUOTE Lets take Ebay as being a barometer of interest in railway modelling.
Let's not - that is a completely unwarranted presumption.

There is no evidence whatever that the level of advertising on EBay is in any way related to international public interest in model trains or in anything else for that matter! The very most than can be sensibly inferred is that the selected figures suggest relative international awareness of Ebay itself, certainly nothing more than that.

As Ebay originated as an English Language site, it is only to be expected that the greater volume of its traffic be in the English language and/or be connected with English speaking countries, regardless of the products selected. What else would one expect. But to then produce selective figures in an attempt to support an ingrained misconception that 'British is best' is er . . . deeply unconvincing.

The figures themselve are very questionable, being limited by relative ability to use correct teminology in areas that are clearly unfamilar.

Even more fundamentally, those already questionable figures are nothing more than one single snapshot in time.
In statistical principle, that alone renders the so-called 'data' as, at best, completely worthless but, at worst, positively misleading - which is even worse than worthless.

I suspect that some people who 'live' in Ebay might forget that there is another world outside their own blinkered little enclave.

 

[Gary]

QUOTE As Ebay originated as an English Language site, it is only to be expected that the greater volume of its traffic be in the English language and/or be connected with English speaking countries, regardless of the products selected.

The German Ebay site in the German language has a higher quantity of model railway products for sale than the American Ebay site in the English language. Its pretty easy in any language to work out which is the model railway category on Ebay. Now if it was leiderhosen....

If the point being made is that the Spanish and the Italians and the French as nations may not be big internet users relative to the Germans and the British and the Americans then than that may be a valid comment which could indeed affect the figures.

However modellers in Italy and France and Spain would have to be relatively wealthy members of the society in which they live I would suspect. And among these wealthier members of society internet use may be more common. I do agree that these are pure assumptions and one has to make up ones own mind on this however we cannot get away from the fact that Spain and Italy and France are minor markets from a model railway perspective. The largest player in Spain (Electrotren) has an annual turnover of £5m.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Rail-Rider]

QUOTE If the point being made is . . .
It isn't.

The point being made is that a single flawed snapshot of incomplete EBay data is nothing like a guide to national interest in anything.
The data cannot represent anything other than pure EBay advertisements in a single month.
Hardly grounds for making sweeping conclusions about International markets and relative national interest.

'Products for sale' doesn't necessarily mean 'products sold' and, even if it did, the relative 'national interest' could still only be gauged by accurate, long term data for the nationality of the purchasers. More on this in the penultimate paragraph.

I would suggest that Ebay advertising also represents a very large proportion of second hand goods.
It is tempting to suggest the majority could be second-hand, but I wouldn't actually know for sure. In any case, it's yet further diminution in the meaningfulness of the data. I seriously doubt if anyone is in a position to research what the relative new/second-hand proportions actually are, or if they remain consistent. One wonders who would have the time or even the inclination to attempt the task.

Furthermore, it would seem impossible to say how many of the deals were done out of genuine interest in model trains, as opposed to wheeler-dealers trying to make a quick buck by swiftly re-selling the same goods, impelled by a pure profit motive and no interest whatever in the actual product. I believe some people make a living at this. A bit like property developers but on a smaller scale.

As for 'players' - if 'national interest' were represented by national manufacturers' turnovers, where would that place Britain's 'national interest' in new cars, for example? Virtually non-existent on that basis, but quite obviously this would be seriously incorrect.

Using incomplete and questionable data is highly misleading - hence birth of the expression
"Lies, damned lies and statistics"

 

[Gary]

Whatever and however and all things being equal ultimately Germany has a lot more model railway stuff on German Ebay than America or Britain and for me this was a bit of a surprise and possibly disproving that Europe is in the dark ages. Well parts of it anyway!

The model rail catagory on German Ebay is over 4 times bigger than British Ebay and Hornby have recently said that the German market is 6 times bigger than the British market. So it seems a pretty good rule of thumb guide to be fair.

As has been pointed out by others though the Germans are more into "Toy Type" model railways and the British more into "Prototypical" model railways. I don't know if this can be factored in to the phenomenal success that German Ebay seems to enjoy from a model railway perspectives. I know that when a group of German Marklin collectors turn up to view a Marklin collection in the UK its a bit like a barmy army!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE As has been pointed out by others though the Germans are more into "Toy Type" model railways and the British more into "Prototypical" model railways.

Out of the fat and into the fire.....

Gary, many would argue the reverse. About half the Hornby range could still be regarded as toy type models. While the layouts can be more train set like they are not all and many are very detailed indeed. I think the various types of layouts are similar to the UK.

I think the main area of differentiation between the German and British layouts is that they have largely embraced new technology whereas we have not. It may be that this is because the average modeller here is older and that in Germany they are younger? Who knows it may be that the new technology attracts younger modellers?

I found the whole premise of this thread insular, flawed and a bit xenophobic. While model rail doesn't seem to be that popular in France,Spain and Italy from a German perspective they are years ahead of us.

 

[Rail-Rider]

Frying pans and fires - neatly summed up, Neil.

To which I would add that emotive statements like
QUOTE the Germans are more into "Toy Type" model railways . . .
is bound to be seen as provocative when posted to the International section. This, from an oft stated position of little or no interest in non-British modelling, reinforces the impression of an attempt to interpose British one-upmanship into the specifically non-British forum rather than to inform or exchange useful ideas on an International basis.

Without substantial personal experience of Germany, its language and its railway modellers, it is less than helpful to perpetuate the tired old clichés about a nation whose market is several times greater than that of the UK. Conversely, neither am I convinced that "the British more into "Prototypical" model railways." That is just another unsubstantiated stereo-type - if enough people repeat it often and loudly enough, then it must be true, stuff. Labelling whole nations on the basis of ingrained stereo-types is . . . well, Neil summed that up.

With regard to Ebay:
It's worth remembering that Germany is not the only country to use the German language . . .
We can obviously add Austria and Switzerland to the mix, straight off, and there are strong associations with Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg among others. In practice, German model rail engineering is so universally admired that German Ebay has, to a large extent, become THE trading centre in this field, and that includes the USA and even open minded British entre-preneurs - thankfully we do have some.

 

[Gary]

I accept the thread has moved on however best to read the initial post which was more to do with the use of the internet among railway modellers around Europe and not at all to do with the modelling hardware. Ebay surely has to be a reasonable marker here?

Rail-Rider by coming in late has gone off at a tangent somewhat and sadly I have perpertrated that sin!

I am basing my judgement of a nations modellers by how they present their layouts at the numerous exhibitions I attend. Maybe this offers a narrow perspective or it offers a broad perspective. I can't really say. However I expect a German layout modelled by Germans to have a certain look, an American layout modelled by Americans to have a certain look and a British layout modelled by the British to have a certain look. My preconceptions here are normally advocated when I see the layouts.

All those nations mentioned such as Switzerland and Austria have their own local Ebay sites. As an English speaker I visit the Australian and American sites as well as the British site. The same principles may apply to German speakers living in Austria and Switzerland. Generally Eaby sellers list in their home country.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Rail-Rider]

Rail-rider has not gone off at a tangent but has addressed posts already in the topic.

Unfortunately, I think that last post fully confirms the common prejudice regarding stereo-types - whole nations, almost entire continents, judged by fleeting exposure to a number of 'foreign' layouts seen at some UK exhibitions. Amusingly, it would seem a pretty good bet that most of those 'foreign' layouts at UK exhibitions would actually have been UK designed and built!

Yes, it all fits together rather well - like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

One can't help but wonder if one might not fully expect a German prototype 'to have a certain look', an American prototype 'to have a certain look' . . . etc. and therefore that the respective models might reasonably reflect those same certain looks. There is no need to describe them as 'Toy Like', which expression is so often used as a put down. Of course there are people who think that Continental prototypes look 'Toy Like'. Alpine railways would be likely candidates for that. But then it all depends on one's breadth of experience, what one is used to. Perhaps the dreaded foreigners have similar opinions of little old British Rail . . .

I've just noticed another classic comment purporting to sum up an entire nation, based entirely on that cursory grab of Ebay figures.

QUOTE The Spanish have a relatively low level of interest in railway modelling and no interest in anything larger than HO.
That truly incredible presumption is based purely on failing to find an Ebay hit for anything bigger than HO!
Words almost fail me - and perhaps it's just as well at this point.

But back to that first post.
Much of my disapproval is in fact largely based on that very first one.
This is specifically the International section and foreigner baiting comments such as the following are particularly inappropriate here, (if indeed they should be made anywhere in public).
QUOTE Is Continental Europe in the dark ages?

it appears that our continental retailer friends are way behind the UK when it comes to offering products online

It genuinely seems that there is little interest among Europeans (Germans excepted?) for railway modelling and the British really are the number 1 model railway online fanatics in Europe with by far the largest European internet presence.

So well done the British!

Really, what IS the point of banging a British drum in the non-British section?
It is SO unnecessary and particularly inappropriate and unwelcome in this part of the board.

When provocative remarks are posted, then it is only to be expected that they provoke disapproving reactions. The simplest solution would surely be not to make such remarks in the first place - action/reaction, cause and effect etc.

Seems like a really good idea to me.

 

[Gary]

Rail-Rider posted the first "disproving remark" in the whole thread only recently in the last 2 days (where have you been?) and now is saying that the best reaction would be to not post remarks designed to provoke a reaction! What has this to do with model railways?

And to be honest what a dull forum it would be if Model Rail Forum members were banned from posting remarks designed to provoke a discussion. I for one would not advocate this form of moderation.

This thread has been running along very sweetly for several months.

Recent posts do seem to be getting a bit personal which is against the rules of this forum. If we stick to subject of model railways then we will all get along fine.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE Rail-Rider posted the first "disproving remark" in the whole thread only recently in the last 2 days (where have you been?) and now is saying that the best reaction would be to not post remarks designed to provoke a reaction! What has this to do with model railways?

The very first post on this thread was provocative. "is Continental Europe in the Dark ages".

This insinuates backwardness, inferiority in Continental Europe and simultaneously our superiority. It was posted by you Gary, and it was based on an incorrect assumption that the UK is the worlds foremost railway modelling location. It is easily outnumbered per capita by Germany and possibly the USA too. This would already have been common knowledge to many people on this forum.

I honestly thought the whole point of this thread was to wind up and antagonize continental modellers.

Anyone who has made any effort to look into German railway modelling would fall of their chair laughing at such a statement. I actually found it hard to believe that someone could be so uninformed about the world of model railways. I wonder if the manufacturers of the Ecos digital system feel like they are in Medieval times?

I suspect not. Then once you've got people wound up by this we get a comment like this!

QUOTE Recent posts do seem to be getting a bit personal which is against the rules of this forum. If we stick to subject of model railways then we will all get along fine.

Gary, if you are going to crank people up like this you have to expect them to react to it. The reason it may seem personal is because you are the only person making these statements. How would you feel if someone posted a thread entitled "is the west midlands in the neolithic?" Not very nice is it?

 

[ozwarrior]

Hmmm. There really are some very pc responses to what I thought was an ok topic. Saying continental modelling is in the dark ages isn't offensive. It just needs a bit of insight to allow for varying means of expressing ourselves. Give me a break.
A while I'm on it German modelling is toylike from the hansel and gretel approach to scenery etc. It's got nothing to do with the quality of the models. That word again....insight.

 

[neil_s_wood]

I'm glad you've come along to explain it all to us with your insight.

Who's being PC though?

The above responses were people expressing their views in response to the views of others. I don't think anyone here has politically correct agenda. Some of us just think accuracy is more important than speculation. I thought with your insight you would have known that.

Where would PC come into it?

QUOTE Saying continental modelling is in the dark ages isn't offensive.
To whom? It's arguable whether it's offensive, to some it may be irritating but it is certainly a load of bo

cks.

QUOTE A while I'm on it German modelling is toylike from the hansel and gretel approach to scenery etc.

What does that mean? Have you ever seen German countryside or towns? Do you actually know what they look like? Or maybe you don't need to with "insight". Maybe with "insight" you can stay at home and read it all in books like Hansel and Gretel without having your assumptions challenged by reality.

That word again "assumptions".

 

[Gary]

OK I do read "The Sun" which is a British tabloid having tabloid headlines designed to sell the newspaper.

A headline invites people to take a closer look and if a headlines provokes discussion then there is nothing wrong with that.

The underlying story is about the use of the internet by continental modellers and the thread has developed.

Ok, Germany is neat and tidy and its model railways reflect this. Nothing wrong with that.

Britain is an overpopulated island with a Victorian railway system either with a lack of loco cleaning facilities or operating an overstretched railway system where there is little time to clean rolling stock and its model railways reflect this and nothing wrong with that.

What I find offensive is being preached to and being told what I should and should not do in what is basically an English speaking forum (with rules by the way which we should all follow) which by its very nature is going to attract visitors with an interest in British outline modelling.

Ok this is an international section and we all acknowledge that there will be English speakers who have an interest in things overseas. However lets be blunt. It will always have a British perspective as this basically is a forum full of Brits or British exPats! Those who are offended by a British perspective should not go around crying foul!

Its up to those who have a serious interest in the international scene to educate, not to condemn.

Am I right or wrong?

Happy modelling
Gary