[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE Its up to those who have a serious interest in the international scene to educate, not to condemn.

I'll give you that one Gary.

QUOTE OK I do read "The Sun" which is a British tabloid having tabloid headlines designed to sell the newspaper

I take my hat off to you Gary, not many would have admitted to that.

QUOTE Those who are offended by a British perspective should not go around crying foul!
My perspective is completely British regardless of where I live, thank you.

I hope that in the midst of this thread some useful information has come to light. I think that unless you have good knowledge of French, Italian or Spanish it may be hard to ascertain to what degree railway modelling exists on the internet in those countries relative to this one.

I know for a fact that in Australia the web is not used nearly as much as at home by shops and I guess that the situation may be similar in France, Spain and Italy. However railway modelling is relatively popular here despite the lack of websites. Maybe thats the situation in Europe (outside Germany) too.

 

[Dennis David]

I always like a little dustup.

Gary I'm willing to bet that the "German" layouts you're seeing are merely Brits trying to be a little "exotic"

just as the "continental" layouts in CM do not look recognizable to me. German layouts tend to be continuous running with multiple trains in operation at the same time along multiple elevations, not your typical Brit layout. While that may look toy like to some this is counterbalanced by the high detail of their models and the larger trains that they run. As far as their scenery yes it is a little Hansel & Gretel but having lived in Germany and owning a timeshare in Austria it is that way!

Now if you want protypical operations and looks then both German and British layouts trail way behind US layouts. But to me each has it's own merit.

The term being in the dark ages is absolutely offensive as well as incorrect. As far as this forum goes it's called Model Rail Forum not British Model Rail Forum or Narrow Minded Rail Forum. The reason this site will continue to be heavely British focused is because who would want to have to defend their modeling practices day in and day out? Thank God I have the ability to travel and see the World as it is rather than as I may wish it to be.

We have the ability to cross borders with the Internet but you seem to have taken it upon your shoulders to make any non-Brit feel unwelcome. Luckily because I am a transplanted Dutchman who grew up in the United States and have the typical American tin ear I am not so easily discouraged.

So if you want me to educate you on the rest of the World beyond your polluted shores

I would be glad to. But if you would rather stir up petty arguments please take them elsewhere.

 

[dwb]

Here's a photo of my new narrow gauge HO layout loosely based on Swiss practice:-

Correction: I just checked the date on the photo and remembered that I was on a footpath between Lauterbrunnen and Wengen at the time. That rolling stock is just too clean and the grass really had me fooled

David

 

[neil_s_wood]

..and I was just about to ask you how you did your grass too

!

 

[Dennis David]

Have you been to the Tirol region of Austria? The grass really is that clean because they actually mow it on the mountain fields!

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (Dennis David @ 27 Sep 2006, 10:28) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Have you been to the Tirol region of Austria? The grass really is that clean because they actually mow it on the mountain fields!
Yes I have, a few times. It is a beautiful place.

My question was more about how do you make model grass look as good as that.

I see you've got yourself set up with a computer in Singapore. Good to see you back.

 

[Makemineadouble]

QUOTE The term being in the dark ages is absolutely offensive as well as incorrect. As far as this forum goes it's called Model Rail Forum not British Model Rail Forum or Narrow Minded Rail Forum. The reason this site will continue to be heavely British focused is because who would want to have to defend their modeling practices day in and day out? Thank God I have the ability to travel and see the World as it is rather than as I may wish it to be.

I have to agree with this statement totally. The vast majority of European layouts i've been exposed to feature intresting design and exquiste modelling. Not these flat shunting planks so frequently featured at exibitions in the UK, quite freqently their boring to watch as well.

 

[60134]

Now, boys, please play nicely!

One point that needs making is that some European countries have lost their domestic brands through the collapse of Lima - France lost Jouef, Italy lost Lima and Rivarossi. Can you imagine the UK without Hornby and Bachmann? What would that do to our own hobby here? I am sure that with Hornby's intervention these countries will find they modelling feet again but it cannot have been easy in interim.

Germany watches its domestic manufacturers lurch from one crisis to another and, again, it appears that only UK intervention will save the day. So, lighten up on our hard pressed Europhiles, they're having a worrying time!

60134

 

[dwb]

>France lost Jouef
I have been wondering what affect that has on the state of railway modelling in France, so when we were passing through during the summer I kept an eye open for model railway shops.

In Colmar we found a model shop that chock full to the gills with model cars. Right at the very back of the shop there was a tiny selection of model railway stock. Across the street there was another shop dedicated to model construction kits. I think it was owned/run by the same guy because I saw him cross the street from one to the other.

We looked round Metz on a Sunday, so everything was closed. There was quite a well stocked looking model shop in an arcade in the centre of town. I know from last year it stocked a lot of model cars. We did locate a small model railway shop near the river in the old town. It was hard to see much stock through the window, which also had a "For rent" notice. That doesn't sound too promising.

This is by no means a scientifically sound survey but from what I have seen the French prefer inanimate model cars to model railways.

David

 

[Gary]

QUOTE This is by no means a scientifically sound survey but from what I have seen the French prefer inanimate model cars to model railways.

Thats exactly the impression of France I had on my travels this summer when on the lookout for such shops. And in Spain right in the centre of Barcelona next to C&A (yes they still have C&A in Spain!) there is a massive Scalextric shop actually called "Scalextric" which you cannot miss. Same in Almeria. Scalextric but no trains. Whilst I found a few toy shops none were selling trains however they were selling Scalextric sets. Car mad I suspect.

Tangier had nothing and Gibralter had nothing.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Ravenser]

dwb's comments echo discussions I've seen on the Loco-Revue forum about the state of the trade in France, and the "detaillants" having a poorer and poorer stock. However one comment in those discussions indicated that Eastern France (ie the Alsace-Lorreine/Rhineland area) was a particular desert because you could drive across the border into Germany and buy the same model for 20-25% less . This was explained by several as inevitable and inescapable because it would be the importer's mark-up on German brands like Marklin, Roco etc.

Another beef seems to be that unless you pre-order a model before it comes out , you can't get one : batches are too small and sell out before they make it into the general shops

Paris seems better off for model shops than London; I'm aware of at least 4 in central Paris , though I've not actually visited them all. However London is a total desert in British terms.

The adverts in Loco Revue strongly suggest there are no French equivalents of the British "box shifters" like Hattons, Rails, Signal Box etc etc, and no equivalent of Mainly Trains. The "artisanale" sector appears much smaller than our own cottage industries/small traders

I get the impression the hobby in Frence is significantly smaller than in Britain (half the size ? ) but much bigger than Spain or Italy. I also get the impression the hobby in France and the Netherland is more "craft " oriented than in the Germanic countries , which seem to be more "proprietary" in style . I suspect perceptions are influenced by the likes of the Flieschmann layout - but it does seem that the manufacturers and brands are more central to the hobby there - eg the Maerklin 3 rail ac phenomenen. This does also seem to be the impression of people who have been to the big shows in the Netherlands and Germany

I agree with the view that "Continental" (or "US") layouts seen here are not a representatitive guide - unless they have actually travelled from the Contrinent (I recall a Dutch layout winning an award at Warley a few years back - and it was definitely not "proprietary" in style). Visiting layouts in the UK are inevitably Dutch or French

And getting back to the original question: the Loco- Revue sites and forums are very impressive - far better thzan those of the magazines here. But then the main internet forums here aren't run by the magazines ...

Loco Revue Forum

And I'm not sure what the objiection is to using eBay listings as evidence of the relative size of the hobby in different countries - so long as they are treated as broadly indicative and subject to special circumstances , not as gospel

QUOTE a Victorian railway system either with a lack of loco cleaning facilities or operating an overstretched railway system where there is little time to clean rolling stock

I think Gary is conceeding far too much here or has a very slovernly local TOC. My local commuter franchise keeps its stock very clean externally - slightly faded or worn liveries on some stock which has been in traffic almost a decade is about the worst you see - and the major InterCity operators like GNER, Virgin and Eurostar keep their trains very well. Carriage washing plants are common and well used. Indeed my one gripe about my nice new weathered Central Turbostar is that their bodies don't normally have much grime. 21st century British railways aren't remotely as dirty as they were in thev 60s, and they aren't really a Victorian railway any more

 

[Rail-Rider]

QUOTE I'm not sure what the objiection is to using eBay listings as evidence of the relative size of the hobby in different countries
That was explained HERE

But the major objection was to the specific targeting of the International Section in order to bang on about how great Britain is.

Forum description of the International Section
QUOTE Model railway topics specific to other countries & regions.

One of the prime aims of a discrete International Section is TO AVOID the all too common "mine is better than yours" sniping between British outline modellers and those of the rest of the world.

In the full knowledge of that, it was crass for someone with a history of that, to burst in trying to prove that "Europe is in the dark ages".
The questionable Ebay data was an attempt to justify it.
It would be quite difficult to think up any other area of the forum where it could be calculated to cause more offence!

Objections have been made, moderators have moderated and I am content to leave it at that.
Let's sincerely hope, but also make real efforts to ensure, that it never happens again - which would be in everyone's' interest.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE a Victorian railway system either with a lack of loco cleaning facilities or operating an overstretched railway system where there is little time to clean rolling stock

I think Gary is conceeding far too much here or has a very slovernly local TOC. My local commuter franchise keeps its stock very clean externally - slightly faded or worn liveries on some stock which has been in traffic almost a decade is about the worst you see - and the major InterCity operators like GNER, Virgin and Eurostar keep their trains very well. Carriage washing plants are common and well used. Indeed my one gripe about my nice new weathered Central Turbostar is that their bodies don't normally have much grime. 21st century British railways aren't remotely as dirty as they were in thev 60s, and they aren't really a Victorian railway any more

This wasn't really relevant to the subject under discussion but anyway let me tell you Britains railways are fantastic compared with the crap they have over here. When I was home a month ago I coudn't believe how much better our trains are than the tin can cattle cars they have in Australia(well Victoria anyway). I believe Dennis made similar remarks about the trains in the States. The biggest issue I have with Rail in Britain is the deliberate high pricing to force people onto the road.

This is a bit of subject but I wanted to answer the above statements.

 

[Gary]

To be honest my remark was more to do with which periods are modelled by respective countries.

British exhibition layouts commonly use smokey weathered subjects from the past.

Continental layouts are inclined to use subjects from more recent cleaner times. Also the continent was electrified years ahead of the UK and this also makes a difference.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE To be honest my remark was more to do with which periods are modelled by respective countries.

British exhibition layouts commonly use smokey weathered subjects from the past.

I think Continental Modellers are less inclined to weather their models. This reluctance may be due to the greater cost.

 

[Dennis David]

I think it's more to do with just being fastidious. I cannot bare the thought of weathering my trains though I like weathering of others.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (Dennis David @ 28 Sep 2006, 10:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think it's more to do with just being fastidious. I cannot bare the thought of weathering my trains though I like weathering of others.

Me too. I like mine new and shiny although I like looking at other peoples weathered ones.

 

[Rail-Rider]

A third reason could be thinking that a clean machine maintains the residual value of the model.

I've heard that a skilfully weathered model could actually be worth more than a pristine version . . .
but I am certainly not that skilled. I have my doubts anyway - it would seem to depend on the buyer's personal taste, however skilfully done.

"I don't care how long it took you, it still looks like a heap of crud to me!
I think you should pay ME to take it off your hands!"

 

[Gary]

By suggesting the Continental modellers are reluctant to weather their rolling stock becuase of values is it suggested that they are more inclined towards collecting than modelling?

I would have said that much of Europe was rebuilt after 1945 and a cleaner dynamic, modern looking railway system was developed as a result much earlier than it was in the UK.

This may go some way to explaining the appearance of Continental layouts, which, lets be honest, do have a different look and feel to anything else.

A continental layout modelled on the 1960's will look entirely different to a British layout from the same period having a cleaner tidier appearance as a result of having a very high proportion of infrastructure and buildings that are of a relatively recent origin. When continental layouts are present at British exhibitions I do hear exactly the sort of comments that have been voiced here.

I have not been to a continental exhibition in mainland Europe. I wonder what sort of comments would be overheard about any British layouts present? Wouldn't it be interesting to be a fly on the wall!

Continental subjects from the 1910's and 1920's are rare but when seen do look more like British subjects from the 1960's in appearance.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE By suggesting the Continental modellers are reluctant to weather their rolling stock becuase of values is it suggested that they are more inclined towards collecting than modelling?

I don't know about that. Thats just what I think about my trains. I just am concerned about dropping the value of them. It's probably a personal thing. If a loco is weathered properly it looks great and if its done badly it looks shit. Theres no way I am going to get a loco that I paid 300 quid for and cover it with mud.

QUOTE I would have said that much of Europe was rebuilt after 1945 and a cleaner dynamic, modern looking railway system was developed as a result much earlier than it was in the UK.
Thats true of much of Europe. However Germany did have to get bombed back to the stone age in order to clear the area to do this so I don't know if I'd want to see Britain pulverised just to improve it's rail system. The other thing is that the British government wont invest in the railways like they do in France and Germany and that leads to a shit system like they have here and in the States.

QUOTE This may go some way to explaining the appearance of Continental layouts, which, lets be honest, do have a different look and feel to anything else. Thats no surprise when they are made by people from a different country and outlook.

Why not try surfing the net to see some German layouts. You will have to use German words to search though like Dampflok and modelbahn. This could be why you got the results you did on Ebay. I searched using trenas de miniatura for Spanish locos and got loads of results.