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Do notice that, as far as practical, points in the Running Lines are Trailing Points for Running/Passenger (and goods) movements. this is why the shunt from platform 2 - and possibly platform 3) would tend to be across a diamond into the headshunt area. This would be earlier practice that avoided a Facing Point for Up Trains departing Platform 1. Trains from platform 3 would have to go over Facing Points to access the Up Line.
A diamond might be arranged as a single slip to allow a move from Platforms 2 & 3 to Up here - instead of a Trailing crossover being needed. This would save length.

If you didn't know it already - you can create a crossover on a curve by using points of opposite hand. Also - tracks, including Running Lines DO NOT have to be parallel. this particularly applies at places such as small termini.

Another thing to notice is that, while US practice tends toward in-one-end-and-out-the-other. UK working is very much Left Hand running and zigzagging across Trailing crossovers/connections. If you have had fun with a US switching layout this might appeal to you - err... Or not...

 

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Don't get the idea life is quiet today...

Potential for fish traffic - just to encourage you...


A small harbour might see a regular small traffic in fish and a vast traffic with the Herring Season - which worked its way around the coast throughout the year.

Regular traffic might mean a wagon of boiler coal once a week, possibly two. These might well be specific PO wagons. Potentially 8 rather than 10 ton in earlier years. Never 16 or 20 ton. Coming up to Herring Season there might very well be a stockpiling of coal at the dock and some wagons kept standing somewhere along the line ready for the increase in demand. These wagons could be rail company wagons, coal factor wagons and - possibly - PO wagons from specific collieries providing boiler coal. Wagons would be worked forward as-and-when and cleared fast - to get out of the way. As far as practical "build up" traffic would be worked on regular service trains with specific coal trains only at high peak. Your situation forces these latter trains to be kept relatively short.

Regular fish traffic might be anything from one to four or five fish vans run as head or tail traffic in both directions on appropriate trains. Occasionally they might work away on their own but would tend to come in (empty) on other workings - including goods trains - so long as none of the goods might contaminate them - although they may be marshalled clear of risk.

That makes me think of cattle traffic. Not likely and probably no cattle dock at either of your stations. (Any livestock/horse might well be moved via the end of platform 3 - with a broom kept handy) Carriage wagons could also use an end ramp at the end of 3.

Diverting further - my reason for putting the concourse behind the buffers is that a station building along platform 2 - shortening platform 3 by its presence would block your access (and sight of) the platform roads. You might have a few low "offices" along the start of the platforms. Keep in mind that if there is an end dock vehicles would have to be lined up straight to load - this needs space.

meanwhile...

Busy fish traffic. This would be fast turn around - subject to what the "dock" station can handle. Potentially a restriction of the branch passenger traffic while an extra tank engine shifts fish. A tender engine would not be likely - no time would be wasted turning it. An 0-6-0 or similar tank would be favourite. (A steeper branch would tend to more coupled wheels rather than a 4 coupled). Full Fish trains would work away on their own headway. Empties would also more likely come in as solid trains and not head or tail traffic - although at least some of the regular traffic might continue in its usual way.

All this would give you trains to play with.


Playing with trains is FUN!
 

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LongHairedDavid
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I can't keep up with all this. I am getting information overload. I am a simple retired guy that wants to build a railway to suit himself. Having spent the last 2 years building a complex software system to route US freight cars, I was looking for some light relief. What did I get - you lot showing me how little I know. I am eternally grateful for the time and effort you have all put in and I am impressed with the level of knowledge plus the keenness to impart that on others in a clear and concise way.

Thank you all so much.

However----

There is only so much that I can understand and relate to my - what the Americans call - Givens and Druthers. Givens are what you must have and Druthers are what you like. My givens are the size of the layout, the scale of the trains and the budget, which is currently all spent until I get moving on selling my HO stuff on EBay. My druthers are having something that works without stalling or derails, gives me interesting movements for 30 minutes at a time (so no complicated timetable) and provides my wife with scenery and people. If I get the last right, I also get more budget - grin.

So, here we go. This is the last pass as I am happy with it and I want to get on and have some trains running. If I get this wrong, given that it is all mounted on foam core - that costs £10 for four sheets in my local hobby craft, then I can tear it up and have another go. My poor Cobalt IP motors have been attached to four layouts so far and are still mounting perfectly!



This has a centre relief road, room for 4 - 5 coach trains, a dedicated fish track and two other goods tracks for coal, goods shed etc. all of which have room around for lorries and so on. It also has some nice areas for scenicking.

One question: I think that the turntable looks like it should have a roundhouse. Should I parallel the tracks or leave them this way?

David
 

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Oops! Sorry! I should have said early on - Take your time to go through anything I write - and probably have a few goes at it

Your new plan is good. Only change I would make is to knock out the crossover from the otward platform (the top one) and put in a bay platform - this could be over at the back. That and your sidings should have a headshunt - back toward the turntable. This keeps shunting off the Running Lines - freeing them up for passenger traffic. The Bay would be my druther and the headshunt my required.

Answer on the roundhouse - no. Roundhouses were relatively uncommon in the UK. The arrangement you have is okay. It would be for turning locos from elsewhere round and sending them back chimney first. (Preferred working).

Sorry for the overload - but great thanks for giving me something to think about on an otherwise rotten day.
 

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LongHairedDavid
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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
So, one last revision then. I will do this tomorrow and see how it comes out. Come hell or high water I will be laying track tomorrow (mind you I laid some on Sunday to the old plan and now that has to come up!).

Thanks again and glad to have given you some pleasure today. I must say, I am enjoying y British Railways experience. Refreshing after years of US involvement.
 

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I think the important thing is to get some track down and some trains running early on in the process to maintain enthusiasm.
Loads of threads on this forum have layouts started and then going dormant for long periods of time. Almost all get bogged down as they have no way of "playing trains" whilst the build goes on. Planning can, and does, prevent horrendous mistakes, but changes can be made retrospectively without having to start from scratch each time.
The most important thing is to have fun.
Mark
 

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The headshunt acts as the trap (catch point) facility for the sidings.
There would be a trap point to stop anything escaping from the turntable. Interestingly there was never usually anything to stop locos or wagons dropping into the TT pitl
It's possible that the Bat platform would have a trap - as this is a Passenger road it is quite likely that such a trap would not be a simple "drop off" - which most are - but would have a sand drag.
Both of these traps would co-act (in effect the same as crossovers) with the points in the Running Line
 

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LongHairedDavid
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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
The view shows the main arrival and departure track plus the release line. It also shows the bay platform. The track is glued down with "No More Nails". I am just about to fit the Cobalt IP point motors and the bus wiring for DCC.

 

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LongHairedDavid
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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Re: Trap points. I quite like the idea of including one but I have already found that I am one point over my stock of points and motors - another £30.00 that I have to get passed the wife! Including a catch point would make it £60.00. That's a good bit of money out of the pension! So, I might just cut it into the TT lead in a few months. The beauty of the foam core construction is that I can just decouple the two legs of the layout and lift one up. The back scenes are all removable so they don't get in the way and the layout board is as light as a feather. I will show how the back scenes work later.
 

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To use up the two points released from the departure release road

1. Try an inbound freight loop so it comes off before the corner and joins back onto the turntable access, this also givers you a freight run around loop which you need - if you tow in a train with a tender loco it becomes stuck, you will need a pilot which I suppose can lurk in the turntable road, however if you draw forward then you cannot get to shunt, you will need to arrive, uncouple, run around the train wrong line and then propel the wagons where they are wanted before shunting the returns, empty coal and loaded others.

A good feature would be a brewery, we had lots of those in the 1950's and 1960's gradually to succumb to the fad for Watney keg red barrel and nasty foreign 'lagers' until CAMRA the campaign for real ale got going and brought back proper beer for drinkers to enjoy. Metcalfe make a very good kit, worth having a look at their website. They also make for N gauge as well.

2. Or - widen the station lines to 4 which was very typical with one point, I looked at Chester Northgate and this was like that as well as Bath Green Park, one arrival release set of points and none on the departure side. The other point could than provide the bay as Bear suggests, useful for local tank push and pull services (I see another question coming) or a line on the closer side/arrival side which can double up for parcels. Parcels was an essential and busy business and often vans added to passenger trains as well as parcels and mail trains that operated at this time.

Generally I would suggest you leave some space where you can to add additional lines when the VIP in control of the house is not looking, remember a railway is always a work in being, it is never finished as it will be extended, added to, expanded, altered, reset, you name it you will find what you have to do.

As to operational irregularities there were sectional appendices which details what lamps were required, how many wagons could be shunted wrong line or backwards, how many across the main lines, what signals would be displayed, even whether certain engines were allowed, all sorts of issues but it was all worked out and written down more like the 'million commandments' than just 10. So basically you can do what you like as you are the fat controller (character from children series Thomas the Tank engine) for your railway
 

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LongHairedDavid
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Thank you but I can't work out what you mean for the freight loop. Not being BR knowledgeable, I am at a loss.

There will be a station pilot. That was how I saw it working. If I run a loop into the turntable access, I then have a bottleneck going on from there as I then go back to two roads. As you say. It is a work in progress. I can lift the board up any time to make changes underneath so, until I put some scenery down (some time in the future) I can run it and see how I get on.
 

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AS you come from the branch you split into two l;ones, then split off again to make 3, two running lines and the tight one as a freight loop, this then goes around the corner to the loco spur and rejoins giving you a freight loop. with only a set number of points you will have limitations.
 

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I am assuming that the single line between the double track and the fiddle yard is "off scene" and a practical solution to getting to/from either running line into any fiddle yard line as you want. As many fiddle sidings as possible is always a good move - even if you only add them later.

QUOTE (kristopher1805 @ 25 Jan 2018, 15:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>To use up the two points released from the departure release road

1. Try an inbound freight loop so it comes off before the corner and joins back onto the turntable access, this also givers you a freight run around loop which you need - if you tow in a train with a tender loco it becomes stuck, you will need a pilot which I suppose can lurk in the turntable road, however if you draw forward then you cannot get to shunt, you will need to arrive, uncouple, run around the train wrong line and then propel the wagons where they are wanted before shunting the returns, empty coal and loaded others.
I disagree - HOWEVER! Please Note! While I'm going to waffle I am NOT "having a go" or anything negative... I'm aiming to illustrate some of the probabilities of how the real railway would work this location out. As repeated above - the hobby should be FUN>
From a model point of view such a loop would have to be at least as long as the run-round facility in platform 3/ the Down arrival platform (the number having change with the re-design) to be of any real use. From a "real-train" perspective (aka "prototype") there would be two objections:-
  • 1. small termini like this appear to have rarely had the luxury of an "arrival loop" for goods or anything else' Look at the size of the yard - how much goods is arriving here to pay for such a loop? Even with the dock branch there isn't much. At peak herring season the local staff would be well versed in juggling space - including using adjacent stations' facilities.
    2a. In order to have a loop for goods to run straight into you would have a Facing Point from the Running Line - also a Trailing Trap Point to stop anything escaping back out from the loop - and a Trap Point at the other end separate from the TT trap point because there are different jobs to be done between a goods loop and the TT road. Meanwhile, back at the entry the Facing Points in the Down Line would require a Facing Point Lock (FPL). While (in LMS days at least) this might be an Economic Facing Point Lock (EFPL) it would still be more first cost and maintenance cost. If it were only to be there for a brief peak season this would be an unlikely expenditure - keeping in mind the finances of the Big Four between the wars - and definitely the priorities of the 2nd World War. Post WW2 there was far too much else going on to go spending on a branch line.
    2b. A goods loop further out would also have a major impact on the location of the Signalbox. (I've kept quiet about this issue so far). FPLs and therefore Facing Points were restricted in the distance they could be from the lever in the Box. (As usual I can't recall the distances off the top of my head). Essentially we would be looking at 200 yards from the lever - Given David P's Facing Points in the exit from platforms 1 and 2 we would end up juggling the Box position between that FPL and the Goods Loop FPL. This juggle would apply regardless of whether the FPLs were independent or Economic. The allowance for a 350 yard FPL wouldn't help much. It would near certainly come too late for the distance between the Box and any FPL in the Up Line - the Box would cost too much to move. It might help out a Goods loop put in during wartime - for some new traffic??? A secret submarine base perhaps? Except the new track might raise questions and blow the cover...
    There are two tiny alternatives in this situation. The Facing entrance could be (a) on a groundframe (released by the Box) or (
    the points and FPL could be motorised - being powered by a "hurdy-gurdy" generator in the Box. However the power points would be required to be fitted with Track Circuits on and around them to prove that it was safe to move the blades. this would be more added cost.
    2c If that lot were not enough there is also a broad, general requirement that all points on a Box are in clear sight of the Signalman when at the frame. This would create issues with the curved approach. Track Circuits - at least an approach track could get round this - at a cost.

    All in all I think that what we need to keep in mind is that, except for a relatively few main lines most UK railways were pretty "minimalist". After some early "bubble" surges - which often broke their own finances - most railways that actually got built did so pretty much "within their means". Victorian railways really did have to pay their dividends - completely without government subsidies - either up-front or hidden. Post WW1 world economics drastically impacted on the railways. In that inter-war period there were large government grants - which went primarily to the main lines. Possibly the only significant expenditure that reached to all lines was the GWRs installation of ATC.

Why would the loco - either tank or tender of a goods train become stuck in platform 3? This is where it would arrive to - in the facility already provided (so no extra cost). There is no rule or requirement for goods workings not to be in passenger platforms. It would create havoc all over the country if there were. Consequently there would be no need for a pilot engine.

It had occurred to me that the logical movement from a run round in platform 3 would be to draw back into the headshunt and then work the sidings. Clearly this would put the points between the sidings and the Running Lines the other way round. However, in all the small terminal layouts that I can recall this was not the case. It seems to me that after running round shunting would begin with a draw out onto one Running Line or the other and then propel into the sidings. Only then would the shunting begin to use the headshunt. It occurs to me that this start of shunting might have to be begun with two movements from platform 3 - taking about half the incoming stock on each shunt. This is weird - and something I had not noticed before.

QUOTE A good feature would be a brewery, we had lots of those in the 1950's and 1960's gradually to succumb to the fad for Watney keg red barrel and nasty foreign 'lagers' until CAMRA the campaign for real ale got going and brought back proper beer for drinkers to enjoy. Metcalfe make a very good kit, worth having a look at their website. They also make for N gauge as well.

Apart from the justification of supping a few beers while playing trains... Why add a brewery? Outside of somewhere such as Burton most small/local breweries would handle whatever traffic they had for the railway by horse and cart or dray - to and from the regular goods yard. All this would show as would be van traffic and, possibly, a specialised wagon of coal that would be fast offloaded from a regular yard siding - potentially near the yard gate - and weighbridge - if there was one.

QUOTE 2. Or - widen the station lines to 4 which was very typical with one point, I looked at Chester Northgate and this was like that as well as Bath Green Park, one arrival release set of points and none on the departure side. The other point could than provide the bay as Bear suggests, useful for local tank push and pull services (I see another question coming) or a line on the closer side/arrival side which can double up for parcels. Parcels was an essential and busy business and often vans added to passenger trains as well as parcels and mail trains that operated at this time.
David P is restricted to his 13 points controlled by the DCC system - as I understand it. Therefore any additional lines seem to be limited.
Some way back I think that I raised a question of whether this limitation impacted with only 13 ends switchable - or - would it be possible to use one control to switch both ends of a crossover? If the latter applies it could greatly increase the number of points that can be installed - subject to funding...

As for the uses of a Bay platform... Definitely the purpose I had in mind for the Dock Branch push-pull. The stops end of this could be used to stand vans for short periods. If anything was going to be berthed there and left unattended it would normally mean that the outer end of the Bay would have a trap point - with sand drag... I think I mentioned that before. Did I also give other uses for the inner end of the Bay?

I suspect that for a small terminal in a relatively rural area there wouldn't be that much parcels traffic etc. What there was would probably tend to be handled by the brake/luggage van in regular trains with sometimes (as required/appropriate) a full van added as head or tail traffic. I suspect that such a van might well be loaded from platform one inner end. Whether it would then be put on the stops of platform 2 (the Up platform) and the passenger stock propelled onto it or it would be put onto the front of the passenger stock would be a local practice. The added van might put the loco forward out of the platform - and, possibly, beyond the "platform starter".

QUOTE Generally I would suggest you leave some space where you can to add additional lines when the VIP in control of the house is not looking, remember a railway is always a work in being, it is never finished as it will be extended, added to, expanded, altered, reset, you name it you will find what you have to do.

As to operational irregularities there were sectional appendices which details what lamps were required, how many wagons could be shunted wrong line or backwards, how many across the main lines, what signals would be displayed, even whether certain engines were allowed, all sorts of issues but it was all worked out and written down more like the 'million commandments' than just 10. So basically you can do what you like as you are the fat controller (character from children series Thomas the Tank engine) for your railway

While I am gleefully waffling from my research and experience to try to give David P a broad image of how things were done here in the UK I get the impression that some diplomacy is needed - and this may be long term. Also I don't think we have yet talked him into studying rule books and appendices.


Going back to the subject of parcels... Ages ago I created a vast waffle about the various sorts of parcel, mail, newspaper and "smalls" traffic a seaside terminus might handle. That spiel was about a large resort terminus though. If anyone can find it they might find it useful as an insomnia cure. It would only apply to a small extent to this location though.

Keep having fun!!!

 

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QUOTE (David Pennington @ 25 Jan 2018, 17:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There will be a station pilot. That was how I saw it working. If I run a loop into the turntable access, I then have a bottleneck going on from there as I then go back to two roads. As you say. It is a work in progress. I can lift the board up any time to make changes underneath so, until I put some scenery down (some time in the future) I can run it and see how I get on.

Being grumpy... A station pilot would usually be a rarity at a small terminus. It would spend far too much time sitting around not doing anything.

Planning for pilot engines, providing an expensive engine, crew, fuel and maintenance comes down to how much traffic would be needing it. How many trains would you be theorising/expecting here in a day? With how much time between trains? On the Furness coast I might make a wild guess at a maximum of one train an hour arriving (and departing) - leaving a whole mass of time for the train engine to run round, shunt its train to the other platform, turn, take water and get back onto its train ready to saunter off on the Up Line.

Generally there would tend to be one, possibly two goods trains in a day - with some days not even seeing that. Market days would do interesting things to all the traffic - but I've not looked at this being a market town. I have no idea if any Furness coast towns were market towns???

Then again, for when you want to play frantic trains - you could introduce a market day, also the peak herring season or any other peak day or season that would cause a surge in traffic.

While a pilot engine might be plausible for some heavy traffic days something that is rather more likely would be for the loco off of one (earlier) train to assist with sorting out a later train. A simple example of this would be for a second train to arrive at platform 3 (new numbering), the first train loco to emerge from the TT road and shunt the stock to platform 2 - and then take that train away. The released engine would then do the same thing with the next train in.

Hope this helps.

 

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John Webb's posts on here and this website - http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&amp...ww.sigbox.co.uk - would be useful for you to look at...

If you live near Snorbans, are passing that way with an hour or two to spend - or want a good day out - Snorbans South Box is a good place to visit. A whole load cheaper than visiting the Union Pacific!

Tell him "The Bear" sent you.
 

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LongHairedDavid
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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Cor, blimey. How do I cope with all of this. A gentle introduction into N Gauge British Railways has turned into harder work than the Open University modules that I have been studying! That was tongue in cheek. Seriously. Thanks for all the ideas. I came up with a plan to get that goods road in by using a double slip at the entrance to the goods yard. That provided the extra point for the goods road without taking any space.



However, a double slip is £36 and it requires two point motors at £20 a time so maybe, taking Bear_1923's advice, I will leave it alone. If traffic increases, I will think again but as Kristopher1805 says, it can be pulled up and re-worked easily. (BTW, you can operate a crossover from one DCC address but it still needs two motors).

With my US model railroad, I developed not so much a timetable but a list of trains to be run during the day and each had a defined route. The routes were in JMRI and I could switch all the points with one click. The list of trains I will probably come up with will not be "authentic" in that the traffic will be more than is reasonable for a location such as mine but then I will never run a whole days trains in one session anyway so it is all a bit academic.

I hope that everyone has enjoyed this topic - I certainly and I have learned a lot so thank you all, especially Bear 1923. I will be re-rading this for days to understand all that has been said.

Now, to keep it going. Bear 1923 - you mentioned a signal box - OK, where does it go?
 

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I think you can save the left hand cross over as above look again at Cheltenham St James above, your goods loop though is not a loop really as you made a ruling line still it'll be nicer to work than before and perhaps use a second double slip next to the first, dunno about N but in OO the peco slips are excellent points very smooth and superb amongst the best things they do by saving a point you get that 4th road in as well - just a thought
 
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