Model Railway Forum banner
41 - 52 of 52 Posts

·
LongHairedDavid
Joined
·
131 Posts
Discussion Starter · #41 ·
Thanks for all the input.The design is now fixed for the foreseeable future as I want to get onto running trains. The inpit you all have given has been invaluable but I now need to lay some track and run some train, even if I tear it up again soon.

Thanks again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,684 Posts
QUOTE (David Pennington @ 25 Jan 2018, 21:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>- you mentioned a signal box - OK, where does it go?

I prepared a long answer and then lost it to the ether. So - taking that as a subtle hint I'll do a short answer...

The Signalman needs to be in a position where he can see "all" of the tracks under his control. (The long answer waffled about the definition of this "all" and solutions to it. I could get back to those if you want).

Meanwhile the Signalman would basically be located where there is the most track - especially points and crossings (P&C) for him to both work and visually check has worked correctly. Keep in mind that the "power" driving point blades is provided by the Signalman's muscles.

So - where would you put the Box?

Don't bother about a timetable. The times shown in the Timetable are only there so that rail staff have a guide to how late the trains are running. Otherwise the table is really an indication of the proposed sequence and order of movements. Apart from that - you can't scale time - at least - not without going completely crazy.

It would be good if at some stage you looked up Shaun's "Ripley" thread on here. If nothing else it will give you a guide to how truly mad this can get.

This conversation should relate to the complexity and diversity of an OU course, or at least an OU Unit. You've taken on a big subject in UK rail arrangement. There could be simple/simplistic answers - but (apart from liking to waffle) I like to facilitate people working things out for themselves with some comprehension. This involves the loads of stuff about history and how/why. I enjoy doing it. So far you have got away without reference to Block Working


 

·
LongHairedDavid
Joined
·
131 Posts
Discussion Starter · #43 ·
I always planned a "list of trains" not a timetable. I will have a go at the SG and put up a new plan! I have spent the last 3 years up to my eyes in Java, Javascript, Python, Pandas, you name it in modern programming. The last ear was spent programming up a web/Android phone app to route US friehght cars. That's all done andI can now, supposedly, take a rest. Mind you, this thread has been anything but a rest - grin.

I want a list of trains so that I can work out some common routings through the points. Once I have those, I can set JMRI to make those moves. Then. all I am left to do is to change the points when I am switching - whoops, sorry, still in S mode - grin - shunting

An LMS/LMR question, if I may, though. I have a 3F on order but it still might be in China. What else could I use as a shunter/pilot?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,684 Posts
I have no idea what LMS/LMR models are available in N.
However - a pilot would normally be an 0-6-0T. A tender engine would not usually be used - except, as I've described - where one train engine acted as pilot for a subsequent train. Tender engines are not favourite for shunting. Apart from the tender blocking the view in one direction the crew have to avoid dropping it in the dirt during the multiple times it ends up getting propelled. High sided tenders are worse than low ones. Naturally the boiler of a tank engine gets in the way of sighting - but that's only for half as many direction moves as the issue with a tender.

Trains to plan for...
PASSENGER
1. Dock Branch shuttle. Can be push-pull. Advantage for you - it just trundles in and out without having to run round - too many run-rounds of the same thing gets monotonous.
2. Basic passenger train working Running Line to and fro - to/from wherever. This will have a there-and-back time.
3. If you have the loco and stock you can double the Basic working up. Keep in mind - you need some place to park it off scene - as much fiddle yard as you can get.
4. There might be a specific first train out to further away in the early morning. This would came back late in the day.
5. Alternate to an early first out would be the reverse - a train that left somewhere else further away early and arrived somewhere around midday / lunch time and went back fairly soon to arrive at the far end in the evening. This might have more first class accommodation - or not. It might also tend to carry more head or tail traffic of the "quick" load/unload kind.
6. Individual specials or peak passenger traffic (summer hols) is possible - this can add all kinds of variants - in particular the use of Mixed Traffic locos and "different" stock.

1. Small tank loco. But a Std Tank with push-pull preferable. (I think you could find a Std 3 tank for this - bit expensive for the railway - but a steep branch would justify this - especially if it also covered goods workings). would tend to be a single coach - push pull fitted if you don't want a load of messing about. SEE "Ripley" for an 00 conversion that isn't too difficult.
2/3 What loco would the revenue justify? Could be either tank or tender. Could be 0-6-0, 2-6-0, 2-6-2T, 2-6-4T possibly a four coupled? may be non-corridor, corridor or a mix - depending on the date and value of the line. If two trains they don't have to match.
4/5 Not so disimlar to 2/3 but tending more to a tender loco. Possibly a 4-6-0. more likely all corridor stock.
6 whatever passenger or Mixed traffic loco available whatever mix of stock available - corridor or non-corridor "Lav" preferred.

GOODS
7. Basic goods for the town. What's it going to want?
8. What traffic to be sent out?
9 Dock traffic - discussed before.

7./8 Any suitable goods or MT loco. 4 coupled or 6 coupled. More than 6 coupled unlikely.
9 Tank engine due to confined site at docks.

You will want a regular goods brake for regular goods workings and a suitable brake for the dock branch. The latter might be fairly large/heavy due to the gradient but will tend to be older - possibly pre LMS - but equally potentially kept looking very smart.

Be very cautious about going for a "grime" image. Even in hard times railwaymen were proud of their work and kept things as neat as they could - all the way up to and past Beeching. Conditions beyond their control did mean bad coal - and soot - but when they could they tried to keep things clean and smart. The more anything was local with regular crews the more they looked after it as much as they could.

There's a start for you.

 

·
LongHairedDavid
Joined
·
131 Posts
Thank you for that in depth analysis.

I currently have an Ivatt 2-6-0 2MT for the local passenger and a 4F for the local goods. I have a 3F 0-6-0 on order but goodness knows when that will arrive. Hence the question. If the 3F doesn't arrive, I am in a quandary as I don't want to buy a shunting loco just to fill the gap and, in any case, I don't know what I would buy - my knowledge is still small.

My plans have just changed as I have just had confirmation of a decent sized PPI refund!

I was planning for a Black 5 4-6-0 soonest(ex-my EBay HO sales) to manage the fish traffic south to Manchester (or wherever) and when budget allowed - a Jubilee with, hopefully, five Mk.1 coaches to run a daily seaside special into the main station.

I have two Stanier ordinary coaches (my terminology is still improving about British stuff) so I expect to extend that to 3 for the local passenger stuff. I am also planning(!) for a bubble car sometime that will run in and out of the bay on a regular shuttle to the branch station I have in front of the fiddle yard.

I don't do soot or grime. I weather 1:35th tanks in dioramas but leave scale model aircraft and my railway stuff as purchased. I know that it looks a bit wrong but I have sold so many bright ideas on EBay that I tend to hold back. Who knows how long my love of N Gauge will last (grin). Currently, I am suffering on EBay as, on the demands of my wife for storage space, I was prevailed upon to dispose of all of the boxes!

In the last 5 years I have done, in order:
US N Scale
British OO
British OO9
US Steam Era
US Transition Era
British N Gauge (now)
so, I keep things pristine!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,047 Posts
In the 0-6-0 shunter format it would be a Jinty, there are more options in OO but for N it is the Jinty, there were a lot of them and appeared everywhere on the LMS although a backward place like Pennington on the Mud would more likely have something older anaemic such as the Midland 1F half cab the first of which appeared in 1863.

This would handle a lot of jobs around the layout. pick up goods, shunting, pilot, maybe banking away from the start if there is a gradient,

The 3F and the 4F are essentially the same loco just the boiler got bigger and nothing round the cab fitted on the 4F, amazing to me they built more under Stanier when there were better options. Branch line motor train working (push and pull) is a bit specialist but would work back and forth to either sub branches or the main line and consist of a loco with the special gear and likely a westinghouse pump, the LNWR coal tank, etc would do it or the Midland 0-4-4tank but these are not available in N in so far as I am aware.

The Jubilee would be wasted on such a train as an excursion, in the area you are thinking of it would be an old loco run down whilst on Bank Holidays anything that would steam could turn up .

Undoubtedly the most useful loco on the LMS was the Black 5 so this has to be a top of the list effort, they did shunt with them sometimes and they would work expresses and everything in between only let down by awful LMS injectors (the LNER version was faultless but the LMS was an embarrassment) With 845 examples you can use one or two of these easily, the 8F was nearly as popular

I think somewhere Bear talked about shunting, some lines were too tight for tender locos especially in freight areas wharves and the like were also tight why LYR built the little pug locos, however the other answer is valve gear settings. On tender engines the valve gear was set up to favour forward motion whilst on a tank it was neutral so could work in either direction equally as they spent a lot of time going backwards.

The GWR has as many tank locos as they had tender varieties the LMS was closer to 2:1 and the LNER a bit closer to 3:1 so you would see tanks everywhere hanging around waiting for the next job. A typical branch train in your area of interest would be headed by an LMS Fowler 2MT 2-6-2tank and a hopeless load of scrap they were, this was designed by a different team to those that did the 2-6-4tank which came out very well but both done at the same time in Derby drawing office..

In this area and time you might well have seen a Hughes Crab 2-6-0 of which 247 were built, the traffic people as well as loco running departments liked the crab and the 2-6-4tanks and could never get enough of them.

You could have your branch going to Cockersands which is a bit south of Lancaster and a modest distance from the WCML it may well have been a better version of the Garstang railway and is an actual place with an Abbey.
 

·
LongHairedDavid
Joined
·
131 Posts
I have been busy laying track. It is complicated by two things.
1. I have to reclaim my point motors as they are fitted using double sided pads which have to be cleaned off from the previous installation.
2. I am rewiring all of my electro points to permanently wire the point blades and wire the frog to be switched by the Cobalt IP motor.
That's is now sorted and the track is down. All that is left is both the turntable lead and the double track main line into the fiddle yard.
 

·
LongHairedDavid
Joined
·
131 Posts
I still can't get the blogworking on this forum so I will continue adding to this thread. If you want to read my "real" blog, check out Gentle Model Railways.

Pennvale Sands moves on. I laid all of the track for the main station, wired it all up and started to test the trains but a few issues cropped up.

Firstly, the Ivatt 2-6-0 that I bought just wasn't going to run correctly. Having had all the trouble with the DCC Concepts decoder and thinking that it was all solved with the new Zimo it turned out that, on the Digitrax speed scale of 0 - 100, it would only run smoothly from 38 onwards. Below that it had a hesitancy which wasn't too obvious until there were a couple of coaches behind it. It was then clear that they were closing up and pulling apart on every turn of the driving wheels.

Secondly, the 0-6-0 Jinty 3F that I was planning on using as a station pilot was only promised by Bachmann "this year" with no indication when. I decided that I would use the Fowler 4F as the pilot (more on that later) and get another loco to run the freight. I wanted a Black Five but my local hobby shop - Orwell Model Railways - didn't have one in stock so I picked a 4MT 2-6-0 instead. Wrong! This is a tender driven loco. In fact, it was so tender driven that the main driving wheels didn't rotate most of the time.

I had one of those nights where you lay in bed and think of all the nice ways you can say to the decent pair at Orwell MS (Kevin and Brett are both top notch people) that you don't want these any more. I was at the door at 10am the next day hoping that I could be casual about this. However, I needn't of worried. I gave them to Brett and explained that I didn't want to have steam any more as I couldn't go through any more of this and he wholeheartedly agreed with me and asked what I wanted to do. Well, I had a little list on my phone:

371-457 - D6714 BR Green, Small Yellow Panel (Class 37) - whatever that implies and 371-084A - D5177 BR Green (Class 25).





Well, it turned out that he had both in stock. I even got given two new decoders in place of my old ones. There's service for you. These two run like a dream.

That got my running problems sorted. So what else when wrong?

I laid all of the track and installed all of the Cobalt IP point motors and, guess what, I got some of the wiring the wrong way round. It is never explained in any documentation that the feed to the point motor is different depending upon which way round that the point is oriented. My red and black wires feed go into socket 1 and 2 on the motor. That is if the point tail is pointing left. If it is pointing right, the feed has to be swapped, otherwise you get a short when the loco touches the frog. It is all sorted now and all thirteen points work as expected. The last thing that I had to do was to wire up each frog with a long, yellow wire, so that I can fit up an LED display above the back scene - eventually.

Here are a few images that show where I am with the work. Firstly, here is a close up of the LED feeds.



This following shot is of the overall main board where you can see the foam core construction and all the wiring.



Lastly, here is a shot with the two new diesel locos in situ along with the Metcalfe Goods Shed and the back scene.



I have picked up an 08 shunter and a tiny CT Electronik decoder so the next job is to get that installed and running. There is a story behind that as well! Come back soon!
 
41 - 52 of 52 Posts
Top