Model Railway Forum banner
1 - 20 of 38 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The famous WarTime steam loco Br 52.
Liliput and Gützold have very fine models of it.
Made in Germany by BORSIG
53 of themw as in service 1943 till 1970's,



Baykal
 

·
Chief mouser
Joined
·
11,775 Posts
Surely an impressive piece of kit. - I may just have to take up modelling mainland Europe.

thank you for the post Baykal.

Regards

John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Kriegsloks (indeed war locomotives) were built on military orders, and based on military requirements which are different from civilian requirements.

The famous Br52, but also the 8F have all similar underlying requirements:
- reduced size and weight to run on most (if not all) lines of Europe
- can be quickly converted to vacuum braking, driving on the right, ... The Br52 were designed to be quickly converted to Russian gauge and many served there.
- very simple design enabling army style maintenance by personnel with little knowledge and tools.
- standard design, easy to assemble, easy to ship. An amazing 7000 Br52s were built in 1942/1945 (its an average rate of 10 per day).

Of course, these locos were not meant for high performance or durability. The fact that so many survived very late is a complete surprise.

Here is one in action :


Cheers
Baykal
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
QUOTE (ebaykal @ 31 Mar 2007, 09:47) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Kriegsloks (indeed war locomotives) were built on military orders, and based on military requirements which are different from civilian requirements.

The famous Br52, but also the 8F have all similar underlying requirements:
- reduced size and weight to run on most (if not all) lines of Europe
- can be quickly converted to vacuum braking, driving on the right, ... The Br52 were designed to be quickly converted to Russian gauge and many served there.
- very simple design enabling army style maintenance by personnel with little knowledge and tools.
- standard design, easy to assemble, easy to ship. An amazing 7000 Br52s were built in 1942/1945 (its an average rate of 10 per day).

Of course, these locos were not meant for high performance or durability. The fact that so many survived very late is a complete surprise.
Cheers
Baykal

Hello Baykal,

I´m sorry, but on the Kriegslokomotiven classes 52 and 42, I have different information.

The 52 class is a de-refined version of the class 50. When Germany attacked the Soviet Union in WW2, the Deutsche Reichsbahn found that they were in desperate need of new engines, as they could not guarantee that all military requiremennts will be met using the existing engines and freight cars. One of the reasons was that the mostly old Prussian type engines (classes 55 and 57 for instance) were not frost resistant, and thus rendered useless in the Russian winter.

This put the Reichsbahn in some kind of dilemma, as building a class 50 engine took many materials such as copper, zinc etc. to build, many working hours as it was a rather complicated design, and frost protection had to be designed for the engine as well. The HAS (during WW2, the engine factories rather than the Reichsbahn was responsible for new engine designs) altered the class 50 bit by bit, "de-refined" ("entfeinert" in German) the design so that time and Material could be saved. This was done while the production of the class 50 was running, and each engine built at that time was altered a bit more (no wind deflectors, no spoked wheels on the front bogie, "boxy" rather than the old, cast, round sandboxes on the boiler, less pipes and valves) and called "class 50 ÜK", the ÜK meaning "Übergangs-Kriegslokomotive", or "transitional wartime engine". Also, the use of "Heimstoffe", or "homegrown raw materials", was also being emphasized. On the class 19.10, you can see an "H" in a circle, meaning that this engine was built using mainly these "Heimstoffe"; on the wartime engines, this was not emphasized. When the transition led to the class 52, the orders for the last few lots of class 50 engines was shifted to class 52 engines (note that the early ones still look a lot like class 50s). For frost protection, most pipes and valves were placed under a boiler insulation, which gives the boiler its "smooth" appearance, and the drivers´cabin, which is closed to all sides, Norwegian style. De-refinement also meant that the gears were no longer cast, but rather cut from steel with the crankshafts then electrowelded to the steel rods - a new method, which worked out well. What didn´t work out were savings in the axle bearings, as the class 52 engines (even more this is true for the class 42) was famous for jerking left and right when riding at speeds higher than 50 kph. The sizes and weight did not need to be reduced, as the class 50 was already a very universally used engine in all parts (even Mecklenburg, where no heavy engine could go at the time without tearing up the tracks) of Germany (however, the use of less and moreover different materials did lead to a slight reduction in weight).

It is not true, though, that the 52s were meant for right--hand driving, or quick conversion to Russian gauge. When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, special units of railway pioneers removed one side of the russian track and replaced it again, only this time with the standard European gauge of 1.435 mm. This was necessary to make sure every German, Austrian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Italian, you name Germany´s allies at the time engine, freight or passenger car could ride the rails where the German troops were. Additionally, no Soviet engines were able to use the rails converted by the German Wehrmacht. However, after the end of WW2, a lot of class 52 engines were still in Russia, converted by the Soviets to suit their needs, and placed into the Soviet "Strategical Reserve" in case of war. Most were based in the Kaliningrad area, all facing westward... As for braking, they had standard German/continental European brake equipment, so there was no need to convert to vacuum braking. After the Invasion of Denmark in 1941, German railroad pioneer troops converted the Danish equipment to German standards rather than vice versa.

There was no need for "army maintenance". In WW2, all German troops were followed by Reichsbahn personnel who were in charge of driving and maintaining the railroad equipment (the "blue" railroaders, as opposed to the "gray" military troops in charge of converting the tracks and securing railroad premises). Herdly ever were these engines driven by soldiers, most had Reichsbahn personnel on board - drafted as well, but not as soldiers.

Some class 52 engines were built as class 52Kon engines, featuring a tender with condensator devices, where the steam from the stack would be blown through a turbine into the tender, where the water from the steam would be condensated and used over and over again. This construction was intended for arid southern Russia, however, just before the end of WW2, these were about the only engines that could be used within Germany as there was no exhaust steam giving their position away to allied aircrews.

Shipment of these engines was not a problem - they left the factories and headed off to the eastern front (the western Front, due to its warmer climate and better tracks, was more of a bastion of class 44 engines). Not all of the class 52 engines had been built during WW2 - some were assembled as late as 1949 from leftover parts by Henschel in Germany. Some which were built between 1945 and 1947 were built with the help of allied troops (there were few male workers in Germany at the time, as a great many were MIA, KIA or POW) and carried a builder´s plate from the 757th Railway Shop Battalion" on their boilers, placed behind the wind deflectors.

Around 1943, the Turkish government was still undecided which side of the war to join. As it had been decided it would be a good idea to help Turkey out with new engines, the TCDD ordered 10 class 52 engines at the Schwartkopf factory in Berlin (56.501-56.510) and nine with Krupp in Essen, which had been relegated to Henschel in Kassel (proposed: 56.511 - 56.519). The first batch, however, was delivered to Croatia instead. In order to not keep the Turks waiting, 43 slightly used engines were lent to the TCDD between September 1943 and January 1944:

52 364 - 368 built by BLW (Borsig, Berlin)
52 4855-4865 built by MBA (Maschinenbau und Bahnbedarf, several locations within Germany)
52 6062-6063 built by BMAG (Berliner Maschinenbau AG, formerly Schwartzkopff)
52 6066-6073 built by BMAG (Berliner Maschinenbau AG, formerly Schwartzkopff)
52 7285-7292 built by WLF (Wiener Lokfabrik, Vienna)
52 7425-7434 built by WLF (Wiener Lokfabrik, Vienna)

Due to the bombing raids on Berlin, the first order (the one that has been delivered to Croatia) has been shifted to Henschel in Kassel as well, and delivered to Turkey by Henschel. However, after these 53 engines had been sold/given to Turkey, relations between Turkey and Germany started to deteriorate, partly because of British pressure, partly because it was clear now that Germany was losing the war. After Turkey declared war on Germany on August 2nd, 1944, no further engines were delivered to the TCDD.

Sources:
Alfred B. Gottwald, "Deutsche Kriegslokomotiven 1939 bis 1945" (transpress Verlag, 2nd ed. 1998)
Manfred Weisbod & Horst J. Obermayer, "Die Baureihe 52" (Hermann Merker Verlag, 1st ed. 1996)
Janusz Piekalkiewicz, "Die Deutsche Reichsbahn im Zweiten Weltkrieg" (transpress Verlag, 6th ed. 1998)

EDIT: Please do forgive my substandard use of the English language; you may have found out by now that I am not a native speaker. Thak you very much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Very impressive indeed.

Mine is first hand knowledge from a former veteran TCDD member who once dwelled with these machines.

Yours is obviously a more refined study. I appreciate it very much.

By the way where are you from?

Baykal
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,614 Posts
"EDIT: Please do forgive my substandard use of the English language; you may have found out by now that I am not a native speaker. Thak you very much. "

There is nothing wrong with your english. my forum writing is much worse but thats just because i cant be bothered on an internet forum!

Thankyou for the information i am also under the impression the Poles ran of a batch post war too.
They called them Ty51 and put polish tenders behind them.

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/pl/steam/Ty51/p81.jpg

Peter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Baykal, originally I´m from Kiell/Germany. I live in near Hannover/Germany now, along with my girlfriend and her two cats


Although I model north German Ep. III and IV, these wartime engines hold a special place in my heart, as I like their clean lines. Personally, I like the class 42 better, but that is just a matter of personal preferrence.

If you want me to, I could photocopy or scan (would take some time, as I don´t have a scanner and I´d have to ask my gf´s dad to do it for me) the "Turkish" sections from my books and magazines (they´re in German, though).

Peter, thank you very much - although I´ve spent most of my childhood in the USA, I´m still sort of anxious to post on English language forums. I guess as long as everybody who reads my stuff can comprehend it, it´s OK.

After the war, Poland had a large number of original 52s, called the Ty 2, the number of them is estimated to have been as high as 1170 engines.
Austria had around 700 engines o their territory after WW2, called ÖBB classes 52 and 152, depending on the type of frame used. Hungary (classes 520 and 520.50) had 75, which were "delivered" to the Soviet Union. In 1962, 100 engines were purchased back from the Soviet Union, some of which were not reconverted to standard gauge to be used at HU-SU border stations. Czechoslovakia (classes 555.0 and 555.1) had at least 575 engines after 1945, and sold and purchased some more after the war with other Comecon countries, as well as Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia (class 33) had 39 engines (purchased from German factories) in 1945, and went on to buy more that were put out of service in Germany and Austria. Romania (class 150) had 270, which were taken to the Soviet Union soon after WW2. Bulgaria (class 15) had 85 of the engines at the end of WW2, and was satisfied enough with their performance to purchase several more from various sources until 1963. Italy and France (class 150 Y) returned their captured class 52 to Germany after the war, Norway kept their 75 engines, as did Belgium (class 26). Nobody knows how many class 52 Engines (class T3) remained on Soviet soil, but estimates go as high as 4.000-5.000.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,614 Posts
Thanks for the info.

I realise poland had a load of ex german stuff including the Ty2. they really are such a reminder of the war that i am supprised they lasted so long but aparently they were such good engines that they kept them running and copied them for their own batch. the Ty52

They can be distinguished by the distinctive polish tenders.

"I guess as long as everybody who reads my stuff can comprehend it, it´s OK." my thought exactly. language if for communication! it shouldnt be an art.

Peter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for the offer ME26-06 but unfortunately my German is null.

Br 42's weren't in TCDD inventory, do not know why.
I was in Nurnberg for the toy fair and had a chance to purchase a Liliput Br 52 with tubtender.
Now also am after the Gützold Br 52 with floridsdorf tender.
My aim is to collect steam models which once was in TCDD inventory,the liliput Br 52 is a fine example.
Like very much to know abt yr loco's too.

Cheers
Baykal
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Hi Baykal,

unfortunately, my digital camera became a victim of my girlfriend´s cats, so I´ll have to wait for the repair to post some pictures.

My steam engine roster consists of a Liliput class 84 DRB (nice loco, I bought it with an ESU decoder at no extra charge), a Liliput DB class 42, a Gützold DRB class 52 with the Floridsdorf Tender ("Steifrahmentender", or "stiff frame tender"), a class 19.10 by Brawa, and - my single most favorite engine - a DB class 03.10 in the early 1950s steel blue express train livery made by Roco. And, there is another favorite, a Danish DSB Litra P Atlantic engine made by Heljan.

Diesel... V36, V100, V200, 218, all DB, DSB MY 1100, 1200, Dispolok Me26 and NSB Di 6 come to mind, along with a DR 132 ("Ludmilla") and a Lima class 240 "Lübeck"

Electrical... a Roco E03, a Roco 103 and an E10.12 along with a Trix 120.0 make up my electrical roster. Like I said, I´m NORTH German, and we didn´t have a catenary system there when I was a kid.

On my "wanted" list are a Liliput class 45 (haven´t bought it yet, as it features a swastika on the side which I don´t want on my layout, and the DB version offered is actually a "retired" version kept solely for tests), a class 66 (yep, we have ´em here, too) and (maybe) a Roco class 50 with the conductor´s cabin in the tender.

As for the 42s, they had been built as a "heavy" version of the 52 later on in the war, and only very few were left in Russia (to be scrapped), and a couple in Poland (who were happy with them), most were on German and Austrian soil at the end of WW2 (some sources say they were to be spared for "after-the-war" use). France had two and returned them to Germany, however, Luxemburg bought a couple from a WLF postwar delivery. But the engine class was by far not as widespread as the 52, and wasn´t produced in such large numbers.

Here´s a pic I found on a German Forum the other day, which shows an East German class 42 side by side with a East German class 52 in Anklam. Some changes were made that show the specifically East German nature of these engines, but it still makes an interesting comparison of the two classes:

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Beautiful piece of machines !

Its a pity of what has happened to yr camera, I would have loved to see yr models.

My collection consists : Steams : Fleischmann Br 03 ,55 ,41
Roco DRG 50, Br 57( Oo how I love this one its fantastic ), Br 44
Liliput Br 52
Diesels : Br 260 , V100 from ROCO.
Lectric : 1043

apart from Br 03 all were in TCDD's inventory .

One of my colleague has modeled a certain period of the TCDD. It is definitly worth looking at to see what railroad modeling has come up to. You will love it.

http://www.ferendeci.com/trains/

Cheers
Baykal
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,397 Posts
I was very impressed to see the depth of knowledge we have on this subject. This is turning into one of the most interesting threads I have seen yet. Me 26, there's nothing wrong with your English at all. It's very good. I didn't realise you weren't a native speaker.

I have a Lilliput BR05 streamlined

Roco S3/6 and an 18 201 with extra tender also a diesel thing I can't remember the number of.

Brawa BR06 and BR19 and an OBB talent on order

Trix Henschel Wegman train and BR 05 003 de streamlined on order.

A Trix Flying Hamburger and a Swiss Crocodile

Trix Taurus with Mercedes SLR's
Trix ICE3
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,141 Posts
Hi Rail-Rider,

nice picture of a nice engine.

I picked up my camera yesterday (it´s a Panasonic with Leica optics, so the dealer had the spares for the zoom mechanism in stock - phew!)

Here goes my Liliput class 42 in DB Ep. III livery:





And the 03.10 I mentioned a couple of posts ago. This engine was originally streamlined when built in 1941, however, the shrouding was so heavily deteriorated by the late 1940s that they removed it and added walkways to the engines. Three were painted in steel blue to go as motive power for F-Züge, which were express trains featuring only 1st and 2nd class coaches, but no 3rd class at all.







Hope you like!
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,855 Posts
I just love those red wheels! Now that March is history I must change my steam calendar photo from a "Frankfurter 01 118 " to 01 1531. There's a lot of steam coming from the bottom of the cylinders on this shot, so less red


David
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Yep, the one with the cab tender.Beautiful.

I had two choices when buying my BR 50.
I would either go for the Fleischmann or the ROCO.
Did extensive search on both and decided to go along with the Roco DRG 50 with the Wagner deflectors.
Fleischmann uses in most of their models the old type Vertical motor. Which is very very noisy when running.Like a toy buzzing train.
My Fleischmann Br 55, Br 260 and the electric 1043 are all mounted with this vertical type noisy motors.
I even complained to Fleischmann abt this issue. Had a brief and straightforward answer from them :

"Dear Sirs,

I have purchased from your dealer in Turkey ( Hobbytime ) your lokos 4226 and 4155. To my dismay I am very disappointed with their performance. The 4226 and 4155 are very noisy when operated. I have oiled both but the irritating noise when running still persists. "

"Dear Mr. Baykal,

thank you for your e.mail.

The locos 4226 and 4155 have built in another motor than the loco 4102.

The motors run not so silent.

Best regards

GEBR. FLEISCHMANN GMBH & CO. KG

Wolfgang Altmann/Kundendienst"

Yeah after an answer like this then it was obviously the roco DRG 50 which has the horizantal type very very silent new generation motor. However I also know that Fleischmann in their new models are now incorparating the new horizantal motors. My Br 03 and 41 are excellent.

The other issue was that you could see the crank wheels thru the windows of the Br 260 shunter. Which was very dissapointing. Besides now I am in the brink of upgrading to DCC I am hearing alot that Fleischmann Locos, specially the ones with the vertical motors are quite hard to convert and are not too much DCC friendly. Some locos have this awkward 6 pole sockets but I leave this subject to be discussed in another thread.

Baykal
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Me 26-06

Great pictures.

The best part is you can see through the engine cab the boiler its red hot !

Baykal
 
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
Top