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I was interested in the layout plan for Pwllheli in the January edition, as it seems a very attractive and unusual concept, but there were a number of queries that perhaps you or the author could answer.
Firstly there must have been a good reason why the passenger and goods stations are so far apart. I assume that there are either historical or geographical influences, but it would help to know the real cause, which must surely have provided a bit of an operational headache. A little sketch to show the relationship between the two stations, before the necessary modifications to make it fit into the room, would help to get ones bearings. It is also a pity that no photographs were available to illustrate this location, as views of it, particularly during its heyday, seem to be few and far between.
What I cannot understand is the arrangement of running tracks. I can see that the rest of the main line, away from the area, is single track, but does it become double at the location where the three-way point is shown? If so then arriving trains cannot access the platform edge on the landward side of the platform - is this correct? If it is double track alongside the goods station signal box, should there be some form of trap point or headshunt to prevent stock in the two adjacent sidings from straying onto the main line? Alternatively the landward side line might be a long siding connecting the passenger station to these sidings, perhaps for storing carriages, which would then make sense. Given the ambiguity of this arrangement I would expected a brief commentary on how the real station was operated.
The real puzzle is the use of a diamond crossing near the goods signal box. It would appear that access to the cattle pens is only obtained directly via the three-way point off the main line. Similarly, access to the loco shed and coal yard seems to be via the abbreviated headshunt near the fiddle yard, which looks extremely awkward. I thought there might have been a double or single slip missing, but the 3D graphic doesn't show one either.
Finally, is it a very sensible idea to have the fiddle yard as part of the lifting section? I would have thought that it would be best if the yard were not to be moved, as most people will have it full of stock, and one of the main ideas behind fiddle yards is that you do not need to handle stock between operating sessions, but in this case everything will have to be put away before you can even leave the room!
 

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Don't know the answers to any of the questions you've raised, but I was a bit disappointed with this article.
My confidence in the writers' knowledge of the prototype disappeared when I read that the Cambrian Coast Express ran to Aberystwyth, and returned to Machynlleth for a second time BEFORE continuing up the coast line. Even a bit of basic research would have revealed that the train used to split into 2 portions at Machynlleth-1 going to Aber, the other to Pwllheli. The return portions joined up again at Dovey Junction. The information is in the books recommended for further reading!

If it helps, there is an undated track plan of Pwllheli in Stephen Austin's "From The Footplate - Cambrian Coast Express"by Ian Allan ISBN 0-7100-2035-3. It's also a good read!
 

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Don't lose sight of the fact that while we take pictures of nearly everything today, photography has never been this cheap.

I have a friend who has built a model of the Orignal Freiburg station that was destroyed in WW II. It took him over 2 years to find pictures of the original building, and then it was pure chance (corresponding with one person, who told a friend who had a friend with about 5 pictures).

John
 

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QUOTE (talyllyn1 @ 17 Dec 2008, 22:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>>SNIP
My confidence in the writers' knowledge of the prototype disappeared when I read that the Cambrian Coast Express ran to Aberystwyth, and returned to Machynlleth for a second time BEFORE continuing up the coast line. Even a bit of basic research would have revealed that the train used to split into 2 portions at Machynlleth-1 going to Aber, the other to Pwllheli. The return portions joined up again at Dovey Junction. The information is in the books recommended for further reading!

>SNIP

Also see my posting in the "ask the editor" section....
 

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Sorry, didn't see your post in "ask the editor". As he hasn't replied, perhaps he hasn't either!

I agree with your comments. However, on the loco front, Bachmann do produce the sloped tank small prairie (4575 class) as well as the straight tank 45XX. The 4575 variety replaced the 45xx on the Cambrian due to the greater water capacity.
I was surprised that the 2251 Collet Goods 0-6-0 was missed off the list - again a current Bachmann product. Given that Bachmann have just released a new Standard 4MT 4-6-0 and Hornby are about to, you'd think that these would be an obvious addition to the list as they were on the Cambrian in various forms in the 50's and 60's.
I'm sure space is at a premium when doing these articles, but nevertheless it was disappointing, particularly as the Cambrian offers so much scope for small layouts.
 

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[quote name='sarah' date='19 Dec 2008, 18:52' post='71359']
Just to add to the list, after the Cambrian Lines were transfered to the London Midland Region, ex LMS types would have appeared too!

Not with any sort of regularity, unless you count the Ivatt 2mt moguls which were just as much a part of the scene under Western Region control. The only positive sighting I've come across is an Ivatt 4MT mogul no 43151 with an inspection saloon from Crewe in July 1966. There are rumours that an 8F 2-8-0 was used during the demolition of the Moat Lane to Llanidloes section, but not found any photo's of it - in any event it apparently operated from the Three Cocks Junction end, so hardly counts!
Other than that a few Standard 4mt moguls were drafted in as replacements for GW moguls and Collet 0-6-0's to supplement the Standard 4mt 4-6-0's in 1966.

Going back earlier, 2 Stanier 8F's (48308 and 48707) reached Aberystwyth via the Carmarthen line with the royal train in 1955. Ivatt 2mt tanks, Fairburn , Stanier and Fowler 4mt tanks and Black 5's were regularly seen between Afon Wen and Penychain with Butlins holiday camp trains until the LMR line from Caernarfon to Afon Wen closed in 1964. I've also seen a picture (but can't find it at the moment) of a Fowler 3mt 2-6-2 tank derailed at Barmouth Junction in the 50's having apparently worked down the coast line from Afon Wen. From a motive power point of view, Afon Wen would make a fantastic layout!
 

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Obviously I haven't got as much knowledge of the Cambrian Railways as yourself (Actually, I have never been "there" in the flesh. My knowledge comes from books , etc. and the "MSTS" Train Sim version of the coast route. This is unfortunatley incomplete as regards the Afon Wen and Barmouth Junction lines. Though I did do some research (mainly maps and books) with a view to modifying the route.).

One movement that you haven't mentioned is the Princess Coronation Class that "ran" through Afon Wen.


One day I'll get to Barmouth, and see that bridge for real. The coast line is very scenic, especially as the sun sets! (And especially from the footplate of a 4575 tank. MSTS version.)

(The MSTS Barmouth Bridge has sheep on the walkway, by the way. What's the toll for a sheep?)
 

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One movement that you haven't mentioned is the Princess Coronation Class that "ran" through Afon Wen.


Funny that - I very nearly did mention it, but as it was dragged "dead" and after steam finished, I thought it might seem a bit "[email protected]"!
I'd love to have seen that go over Barmouth Bridge.
Anyway, this thread has brought back many happy memories. You should use the excuse of the Welsh Highland reopening full-length to go and see the Cambrian this coming year - a lovely part of the world.
 

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The Cambrian Line is fascinating- lovely scenery and great modelling opportunities. My ambition is to model the triangular Barmouth Junction ( now mostly disused and called Morfa Mawddach). I think in OO I could fit it into a 10ft by 4 ft space using Hornby 2nd radius. Has anyone out there tried it? If you want more information try "The Coast Lines of the Cambrian Railways" volumes 1 and 2 by C.C Green. Volume 2 covers the northern branch to Barmouth Junction. Sadly the writer died before writing Volume 3. The books are not cheap (about £25), but are large with lots of detail about operating practices, original photos and really detailed track and signalling plans. A real collectors item and still in print. We holiday in the area every year and always have a ride down the coast- even on a modern DMU it's a great trip!
 

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I spent most of my childhood holidays on the Cambrian Coast line - Criccieth, Pwllheli, and Towyn. Two books I'd recommend for anybody interested in Pwllheli are "Return to Pwllheli" - Scenes from the Past 53 and "The Cambrian Coast Railway" - Scenes from the Past 4. The last book is I think out of print. Both contain a reasonable selection of photos - combined there's more than enough photos to model a layout accurately.

If I may be allowed a plug for my book "Layout Designs for Operation" published by Atlantic you will find a detailed account of operations at Afon Wen, including full 1950/60s timetables for summer Saturdays.

Some points about Pwllheli:

The loco depot was rebuilt in the late 1950s in a very modern style - it looked more like a diesel depot, which is what I believe was the intention for it to become. I "bunked" it several times mid week in July 1965 when there were a selection of dead steam locos awaiting the following Saturday's holiday trains. There is a photo of the interior in Scenes from the Past 4. On 28/7/65 2236, 7812, 75004, 80101, 80104 and 80105 were all dead on shed.

With regard to LMR steam I can confirm that there was a strong presence in addition to the WR locos. My notes show that LMR Class 2 and 3 2-6-2Ts - Ivatt and Stanier, together with Stanier and Fairburn 2-6-4Ts worked in every day from Bangor and Caernarvon - they ran round their trains at Afon Wen. Stanier Class 5s also worked regularly to Pen-y-chain for Butlins and may also have appeared at Pwllheli for servicing. For a time in the late 1950s/very early 60s some Stanier 2-6-2Ts also worked on the Cambrian itself. Once the Bangor services started to be dieselised LMR early Derby lightweights in the 79... series took over some of these services.

My notes for 1959 show these LMR locos at Afon Wen - 40132, 42544, 42677, 45180, 80087, 80089, 80094, 80095 (all tanks were from Bangor shed)

In 1960 I saw these LMR locos at Pwllheli 40085 and 40086 (both alocated to 89C Machynlleth), 41233, 41234, 42567, 42601 (all 6H Bangor). Numerous other LMR locos were seen at Afon Wen 42069, 42075, 42081, 42425, 42482, 42489, 42579, 44661, 44687.

1963 continued to see LMR Fairburn and Stanier 2-6-4Ts

By 1964 there were dmus working some of the locals but I still saw a lot of 2-6-4Ts - as well as Class 5s and on one Saturday 45721 from 16F shed was piloted by 42489 on a Pen-y-chain train. I doubt this went into Pwllheli though.

On the Cambrian itself don't forget the gradual transition of loco types - 45/55xx and 90xx lasted until 1959/60 to be replaced increasingly by 464xx/465xx/78xxx/82xxx locos and the from 1963 80xxx appeared replacing the 2251 and 63xx WR locos. The larger 75xxx were regularly joined by Manors from about 1963 on Coast line trains. By summer 1965 the Afon wen line was closed and dmus had taken over most coast line trains A few Manors continued to appear on the expresses and freights with 75xxx and 80xxx handling the rest of the services. After 1965 the Manors disappeared and were replaced by 75xxx and 76xxx. It's a complex subject!!

Hopefully these notes fill in a few gaps about this line.
 

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QUOTE (Nick Holliday @ 16 Dec 2008, 14:05) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I was interested in the layout plan for Pwllheli in the January edition, as it seems a very attractive and unusual concept, but there were a number of queries that perhaps you or the author could answer.
Firstly there must have been a good reason why the passenger and goods stations are so far apart. I assume that there are either historical or geographical influences, but it would help to know the real cause, which must surely have provided a bit of an operational headache. A little sketch to show the relationship between the two stations, before the necessary modifications to make it fit into the room, would help to get ones bearings. It is also a pity that no photographs were available to illustrate this location, as views of it, particularly during its heyday, seem to be few and far between.
What I cannot understand is the arrangement of running tracks. I can see that the rest of the main line, away from the area, is single track, but does it become double at the location where the three-way point is shown? If so then arriving trains cannot access the platform edge on the landward side of the platform - is this correct? If it is double track alongside the goods station signal box, should there be some form of trap point or headshunt to prevent stock in the two adjacent sidings from straying onto the main line? Alternatively the landward side line might be a long siding connecting the passenger station to these sidings, perhaps for storing carriages, which would then make sense. Given the ambiguity of this arrangement I would expected a brief commentary on how the real station was operated.
The real puzzle is the use of a diamond crossing near the goods signal box. It would appear that access to the cattle pens is only obtained directly via the three-way point off the main line. Similarly, access to the loco shed and coal yard seems to be via the abbreviated headshunt near the fiddle yard, which looks extremely awkward. I thought there might have been a double or single slip missing, but the 3D graphic doesn't show one either.
Finally, is it a very sensible idea to have the fiddle yard as part of the lifting section? I would have thought that it would be best if the yard were not to be moved, as most people will have it full of stock, and one of the main ideas behind fiddle yards is that you do not need to handle stock between operating sessions, but in this case everything will have to be put away before you can even leave the room!

you can find plenty of pictures if you look hard enough, for example try using google or fotopic. secondly the reason why the goods yard and station are so far apart is that the original station was across from the googs yard but got extended into the town and is where it is now.

intresting note for anyone is that both the pwllheli shed are still there to this day but have different guises now. ones a boat yard with the sheds being used as a office/workshop and the over is i think being used by jewsons.
 

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QUOTE (steverabone @ 28 Mar 2009, 19:12) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The loco depot was rebuilt in the late 1950s in a very modern style - it looked more like a diesel depot, which is what I believe was the intention for it to become. I "bunked" it several times mid week in July 1965 when there were a selection of dead steam locos awaiting the following Saturday's holiday trains. There is a photo of the interior in Scenes from the Past 4. On 28/7/65 2236, 7812, 75004, 80101, 80104 and 80105 were all dead on shed.

I'm afraid an error crept into this posting due to misreading my notes. The locos I saw on 28/7/65 were withdrawn at Machynlleth not Pwllheli.

In 16th August there were 75055, 80097 (6F) and 75002 (6F) dead inside the shed at Pwllheli. 80097 was withdrawn and was towed to Machynlleth the following day by 75055.
 
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