Lima trains
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Hornby didn't buy Lima because it thought their products were good, or for the British outline range. They bought Lima for the European brands that the company owned - Rivarossi, Lima, Jouef and Arnold .
The reason being that Hornby needed to diversify and spread its risk into other markets, rather than rely on the relatively small UK market for its model train business.
Those brands have been re-launched, along with others that Hornby have also acquired, with mostly new products
Lima had gone bankrupt because its many of its products were poor and falling behind the competition, plus its Italian manufacturing cost base was too high.
Hornby snapped up the remains of the defunct company, closed down its factory and other facilities and moved production to subcontractors in China.
They even said at the time that there was no intention of re-introducing any of the former Lima UK range. However calls for the return of some of the Lima UK models (not available in modern form from other manufacturers at the time) led to Hornby changing their mind. Gradually more ex-Lima models have been re-introduced.
The ex-Lima Hornby (some times referred to as Limby) models have benefited from cheap Chinese motor upgrades from the original awful Lima pancake mechanisms. There have been a number of other modifications to various models too and all have benefitted from better paint jobs (even if full of errors on certain releases).
Some of the ex-Lima stuff is only fit for the Railroad range, as the quality falls way short of modern standards. Although Hornby have released items under the Railroad brand, they have also placed certain items in the main Hornby range when it really be in the cheaper Railroad range.
Are old Lima models any good?
Well, it's a matter of opinion, but most fall well short of modern standards, in both quality and detail.
Running can be very poor from the cr*p mechanisms, although with a bit of fettling a half decent performance can be obtained, especially with DCC fitted. However a really bad runner may be a dead loss and nothing can improve it short of re-motoring and possibly replacing the gear mechanism.
Re-motoring can be carried out by a variety of means (e.g. ModelTorque replacement motors), but is it just throwing good money after bad?
Accuracy is another important area where a lot of the models fall down; both in shape and the level and quality of fine detail. Moulded handrails, painted imitation lights and painted on detail just doesn't cut the mustard 15+ years on.
On the plus side, old Lima models should be very cheap. Don't pay silly prices for them as they are not worth it. They can also be an excellent source of material for kit bashing and learning the ropes with heavy modification or re-spraying. Something that the in-experienced would be ill advised to try on a £100 model.
Just watch out for the absolute duffers like the Lima Class 55 Deltic.
.
The reason being that Hornby needed to diversify and spread its risk into other markets, rather than rely on the relatively small UK market for its model train business.
Those brands have been re-launched, along with others that Hornby have also acquired, with mostly new products
Lima had gone bankrupt because its many of its products were poor and falling behind the competition, plus its Italian manufacturing cost base was too high.
Hornby snapped up the remains of the defunct company, closed down its factory and other facilities and moved production to subcontractors in China.
They even said at the time that there was no intention of re-introducing any of the former Lima UK range. However calls for the return of some of the Lima UK models (not available in modern form from other manufacturers at the time) led to Hornby changing their mind. Gradually more ex-Lima models have been re-introduced.
The ex-Lima Hornby (some times referred to as Limby) models have benefited from cheap Chinese motor upgrades from the original awful Lima pancake mechanisms. There have been a number of other modifications to various models too and all have benefitted from better paint jobs (even if full of errors on certain releases).
Some of the ex-Lima stuff is only fit for the Railroad range, as the quality falls way short of modern standards. Although Hornby have released items under the Railroad brand, they have also placed certain items in the main Hornby range when it really be in the cheaper Railroad range.
Are old Lima models any good?
Well, it's a matter of opinion, but most fall well short of modern standards, in both quality and detail.
Running can be very poor from the cr*p mechanisms, although with a bit of fettling a half decent performance can be obtained, especially with DCC fitted. However a really bad runner may be a dead loss and nothing can improve it short of re-motoring and possibly replacing the gear mechanism.
Re-motoring can be carried out by a variety of means (e.g. ModelTorque replacement motors), but is it just throwing good money after bad?
Accuracy is another important area where a lot of the models fall down; both in shape and the level and quality of fine detail. Moulded handrails, painted imitation lights and painted on detail just doesn't cut the mustard 15+ years on.
On the plus side, old Lima models should be very cheap. Don't pay silly prices for them as they are not worth it. They can also be an excellent source of material for kit bashing and learning the ropes with heavy modification or re-spraying. Something that the in-experienced would be ill advised to try on a £100 model.
Just watch out for the absolute duffers like the Lima Class 55 Deltic.
.
To be honest most were ok and now can offer a cheaper alternative too newer models. Be careful though as some con be overpriced. In terms of the mechanism I my experience it was better than its contemporary Hornby mechanism, so I don't know where other peoples aversion to it arises. Avoid the Deltic its way out though. As always though, as most will be second hand caveat emptor.
Cheap and nasty, made down to a price for the UK. The sad thing was that the Lima group made much superior HO product, and as already mentioned, that's the product that Hornby was after. Any centre motor diesel model from Bach, Heljan or Hornby knocks spots off Lima. Support the current businesses that have significantly upgraded OO quality is my motto. If you really, really, have to see for yourself, don't pay more than £10. Anything more than 10p is actually too much...
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558 Posts
Some were good, others wern't so hot... The 31 was a cracking model from Lima when it was introduced still looks ok next to the very expensive Hornby model, just let down buy a rubbish mech, the 20 was a better job still and that had a decent motor too. The 73 looks good as well. As mentioned alread the deltic is bad, as is the warship. The western aint fantastic either. The 26/27/33 is okish, and the 37 and 40s aint bad either. If you can get a little used model the mechanism can be made to run smoothly and quite quietly amazingly by the application of tooth paste to the gears! Cause I'm old I quite like the retro "feel" of Lima locos and you can get most for next to nowt if you search about a bit, so a decent sized collection can be built up for not much dosh.
Jim
Jim
In essence, Lima was not too bad (with certain exceptions such as the Deltic) for its time but standards have improved all over since then.
It depends on your budget really; the best advice I would offer is don't get Lima but save up for one of the more modern models even if it means waiting for it.
You don't mention scale but I assume you mean OO; their N was truly a disaster and very little of it anywhere near scale, even with each other, let alone the offerings from other companies!
If you must buy Lima then you can get most things from swapmeets and similar, but don't expect a good model in return for you hard earned!!!
It depends on your budget really; the best advice I would offer is don't get Lima but save up for one of the more modern models even if it means waiting for it.
You don't mention scale but I assume you mean OO; their N was truly a disaster and very little of it anywhere near scale, even with each other, let alone the offerings from other companies!
If you must buy Lima then you can get most things from swapmeets and similar, but don't expect a good model in return for you hard earned!!!
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744 Posts
which is a good brand of toothpaste to use?
QUOTE (Mike Buckner @ 2 Jul 2010, 00:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>which is a good brand of toothpaste to use?
Signal ?
You can identify which loco's have been treated by their gleaming smile, or by placing a plaque on the side.
Signal ?
You can identify which loco's have been treated by their gleaming smile, or by placing a plaque on the side.
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13,704 Posts
QUOTE (Oakydoke @ 2 Jul 2010, 07:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Signal ?
You can identify which loco's have been treated by their gleaming smile, or by placing a plaque on the side.
Ah, the MRF SOH is alive & well..................
You can identify which loco's have been treated by their gleaming smile, or by placing a plaque on the side.
Ah, the MRF SOH is alive & well..................
I was intending to sell my hardly used Lima on ebay but checking my records I found I paid a fiver for most of the loco's when new so they do not owe me much and can be run for fun.
The biggest problem with Lima 00 is/was the brass wheels which quickly oxidise until the motor will not run.
An old Triang-Hornby power brush polishes them up a treat and they then run OK. Lima loco's need frequent exercise to avoid oxidation. Ten laps of a track light engine at toy train speed in either direction does the trick.
They have 9-volt motors and go like a rocket with a normal 12v controller so you need to go easy with the juice.
I bought some spare Lima armatures from Railwayania (Replica Railways) just in case.
A 94xx I bought for too much money second hand was a basket case so I scrapped the chassis and put the body onto a Bachmann 57xx chassis. Looks and runs much better. The Lima chassis is longer than the Bachmann so I cut off the ends of the Lima chassis to make adaptors.
The newer stuff looks and runs great but you can still have fun with cheap Lima or take a razor saw to it and convert it into something else.
I looked at Vi-Trains replacement chassis but cannot justify spending 37 quid on a 5 quid loco.
The biggest problem with Lima 00 is/was the brass wheels which quickly oxidise until the motor will not run.
An old Triang-Hornby power brush polishes them up a treat and they then run OK. Lima loco's need frequent exercise to avoid oxidation. Ten laps of a track light engine at toy train speed in either direction does the trick.
They have 9-volt motors and go like a rocket with a normal 12v controller so you need to go easy with the juice.
I bought some spare Lima armatures from Railwayania (Replica Railways) just in case.
A 94xx I bought for too much money second hand was a basket case so I scrapped the chassis and put the body onto a Bachmann 57xx chassis. Looks and runs much better. The Lima chassis is longer than the Bachmann so I cut off the ends of the Lima chassis to make adaptors.
The newer stuff looks and runs great but you can still have fun with cheap Lima or take a razor saw to it and convert it into something else.
I looked at Vi-Trains replacement chassis but cannot justify spending 37 quid on a 5 quid loco.
Another problem with Lima was wheel flanges, too big. Many of these models would actually run on the sleepers !!! Some of their wagons were ok, but with same problem. Also the five bar gate on the front of all their models, sorry tension lock couplings, they are massive.
Lima filled a gap in the market in the eighties, mainly because Hornby were going through a bad period. What caught the modellers attention was the low cost. Also remember the situation in the eighties, high unemployment and high paid jobs being replaced by low paid part time work.
I still have a couple of models from that period, class 33 & 117 dmu. They looked ok then, but to see them now you can see how cheap and nasty they were.
Lima filled a gap in the market in the eighties, mainly because Hornby were going through a bad period. What caught the modellers attention was the low cost. Also remember the situation in the eighties, high unemployment and high paid jobs being replaced by low paid part time work.
I still have a couple of models from that period, class 33 & 117 dmu. They looked ok then, but to see them now you can see how cheap and nasty they were.
I'd say if you can get a good deal, go for it. The mechanisms were poor but could be run in to be OK. The wheels are horrid but you can often get easy to fit replacements from Ultrascale (http://www.ultrascale.co.uk/) which are superb.
The bodies often can do with a bit of detailing but it's not too difficult and there have been packs of etched and cast bits made available for most locos. Spend time looking at photos and give it a try. That's how a lot of us got into model-making !
Phil
The bodies often can do with a bit of detailing but it's not too difficult and there have been packs of etched and cast bits made available for most locos. Spend time looking at photos and give it a try. That's how a lot of us got into model-making !
Phil
Personally I always thought that the Lima pancake motor was slightly better than the contemporary Hornby one and the gearing was better as it always gave me better slow running than H. did. It did need regular cleaning though and due to the heavy weight didnt need tyres for traction! (unlike H.)
A friend of mine used to have an OO garden layout and only ran Lima - he ran some locos so long and hard he wore the wheelsets out (and a few motors). He refused to use Hornby, said they were unreliable.
Its all a matter of personal perception I suppose.
Hornby improved detail, mechanics & quality - Lima didn't and suffered the consequences.
A friend of mine used to have an OO garden layout and only ran Lima - he ran some locos so long and hard he wore the wheelsets out (and a few motors). He refused to use Hornby, said they were unreliable.
Its all a matter of personal perception I suppose.
Hornby improved detail, mechanics & quality - Lima didn't and suffered the consequences.
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368 Posts
I like my lima J50 but not my Lima King....I did only buy the King for fun though as I have a Hornby King Charles I and as I was browsing ebay for crap I saw the Lima King Charles II and thought "I'm having that"
J50 Runs well but smells like it's going to explode after a while.
Charlie just doesn't like to move and when he does fancy a stroll the tender drive is too powerful for the lightweight loco...I suppose I could weight it.
J50 Runs well but smells like it's going to explode after a while.
Charlie just doesn't like to move and when he does fancy a stroll the tender drive is too powerful for the lightweight loco...I suppose I could weight it.
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14 Posts
Lima Class 55 Deltic? I have one, bit ropey but i like it, simple to work on.
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169 Posts
What's wrong with the Lima Deltic? I have one bought second hand but looking fairly new and it runs beautifully, on a par with any other diesel. I have a Warship also bought used that needed some TLC on the bodywork but that also runs perfectly well. Why are these considered to be worse than other Lima diesels?
I prefer steam but also like green diesels of any class and have Lima 20, 33, 40, 45, 47, 55, 117, 14/17 and 0-4-0 shunter and they all run as well as all my Hornby models, but my best runners are the Triang 31, 37, 101 and Dock shunter which all run superbly, pull extremely well and creep along nicely with Guagemaster DC feedback controller.
Whether they have a few moulded rivets in the wrong place and lack a bit of detail accuracy isn't high on my priority list. Good runner, pulling power and price to buy are more important, the rest I can fettle and add bits to improve and thats part of the enjoyment I get from modelling.
I have a few even older locos, some of which I have had since new nearly 50 years ago and with a change of couplings and some weathering with cast metal bogies or loco chassis with magnadhesion with X03/4 motors take some beating for value for money. No traction tyres to go hard!
I prefer steam but also like green diesels of any class and have Lima 20, 33, 40, 45, 47, 55, 117, 14/17 and 0-4-0 shunter and they all run as well as all my Hornby models, but my best runners are the Triang 31, 37, 101 and Dock shunter which all run superbly, pull extremely well and creep along nicely with Guagemaster DC feedback controller.
Whether they have a few moulded rivets in the wrong place and lack a bit of detail accuracy isn't high on my priority list. Good runner, pulling power and price to buy are more important, the rest I can fettle and add bits to improve and thats part of the enjoyment I get from modelling.
I have a few even older locos, some of which I have had since new nearly 50 years ago and with a change of couplings and some weathering with cast metal bogies or loco chassis with magnadhesion with X03/4 motors take some beating for value for money. No traction tyres to go hard!
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yes, i'm a lima man - great stuff at a very reasonable price used these days, - interesting about the tri- ang, have to gives those a go.
Dimensionally inaccurate and as a result not a convincing model of the prototype. Lima were stumbling about between use of HO or OO for UK product at the time this was developed, so it is a hybrid of both scales. Subsequent diesel models were I believe consistently OO.
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169 Posts
I thought you were referring to it's operating proficiency not it's shape. I couldn't see how it could be different when the mechanical bits are the same as the rest of the range.
I have never seen a real Deltic so to me it looks bigger than a 37 so that's good enough!
As for the Triang, I have several 'Jintys' and 'Nellies' with varying wheel types, some with solid spokes and no centre flanges, a coupe of Triang Hornby Ivatt 2-6-0, 3F, Dock shunter, Class 31, 37 and Hymek with the old cast metal power bolgies and the old 'A7' DMU and an original Pullman set with the same cast bogie as the DMU and dock shunter. They all work fine and some may be still on the original brushes as I can't recall ever changing them. I did have an early Princess but that had wheels with flanges so big it wouldn't even run on System 6 track and nasty little plastic bogie wheels. This went in the bin ages ago and it was definitely 'play worn'. I still have the motor from it and that still works.
I like fettling these older locos, putting wire handrails on and adding crew and lamps, weathering, change the couplings, real coal etc and I even run some at exhibitions and have had some good comments on them from knowledgeable viewers who took a while to realise what they were looking at.
I have never seen a real Deltic so to me it looks bigger than a 37 so that's good enough!
As for the Triang, I have several 'Jintys' and 'Nellies' with varying wheel types, some with solid spokes and no centre flanges, a coupe of Triang Hornby Ivatt 2-6-0, 3F, Dock shunter, Class 31, 37 and Hymek with the old cast metal power bolgies and the old 'A7' DMU and an original Pullman set with the same cast bogie as the DMU and dock shunter. They all work fine and some may be still on the original brushes as I can't recall ever changing them. I did have an early Princess but that had wheels with flanges so big it wouldn't even run on System 6 track and nasty little plastic bogie wheels. This went in the bin ages ago and it was definitely 'play worn'. I still have the motor from it and that still works.
I like fettling these older locos, putting wire handrails on and adding crew and lamps, weathering, change the couplings, real coal etc and I even run some at exhibitions and have had some good comments on them from knowledgeable viewers who took a while to realise what they were looking at.
Some of the Lima N-stuff of British outline was multiple scales within a single model - length to one scale, width to another, and hopeless mechanisms. They have comedy value only.
The ironic thing was that Rivarossi, part of the same company, produced by the most accurate British N loco from the 1970's, and not matched in British N until around 2000, in the LMS 4-6-0 Jubilee which was marketed by Peco. Sufficiently accurate that various 2mm finescale modellers were seeking the remaining few bodies until all had gone a few years ago, and producing absolutely stunning models with new chassis/mechanism under the body.
- Nigel
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