[Gary]

QUOTE It would appear that all our comments re: Hornby Digital have been justified.

Do you mean the 4 or 5 vocal forum members who, whilst not having tried Hornby Digital, continue to comment?

Well I haven't yet read the article however if it makes tech heads and MR DCC types jump up and down with glee then it is probably an article, if read, that will set DCC back 10 years in the UK.

So it should satisfy the DC advocates.

When will tech heads and Mr DCC types realise that it is their ilk and their ways of communicating that is most off putting to the ordinary guy in the street.

Think of Hi-Fi. There are a very very small percentage who go into a specialist Hi-Fi shop and talk of tweeters and woofers. And there is the rest of the population who go into Currys or Comet simply to buy audio equipment. I suspect the two experts who have offered comment in Model Rail are living on a different planet to the ordinary guy in the street.

The article will be read in due course with interest.

Hornby Digital is incredible value, is widely available, is fully compliant with European legislation, and comes with the backing of the UK's largest model railway company. It allows several trains at a time to run on the same track in different directions without complex wiring. There will be pressure groups within the hobby who would like to preserve the status quo pre Hornby Digital. It is a challenge that Hornby no doubt are aware of.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE DCC and Model railways are a global hobby and Hornby might not like not being number 1 worldwide but they should do as the rest do and conform to American standards that are set down and agreed upon.

I have added the word American.

Does this mean that Americans can ignore European standards?

Only a very tiny percentage of all DCC equipment offered worldwide conforms to NMRA standards anyway and Simon Kohler made this point in his interview in Model Rail. It seems entirely wrong in these circumstances that Model Rail should give a soap box to those whose anly aim is to take a pop at Hornby.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE Gary - answer this if you can "What American DCC kit does not comply with European Standards ?"

QUOTE Question for Gary ;

If Lenz, Uhlenbrook, Fleischmann, ESU & Zimo (to name a few) can produce DCC equipment that complies with European and NMRA standards why cannot Hornby ?

MMaD has indicated that the article should be read and I would like to read the Model Rail article before responding to the question. There is simple logic that time after time seems to be overlooked and it may have been overlooked on this occasion.

Hornby said in their own interview that they make products for their customers, not the NMRA, and when chatting with fellow manufacturers about their attitudes in this regard the feedback that Hornby were given by this group was very similar.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

Hello Richard. Welcome to Model Rail Forum.

I'll read what you have to say in Model Rail and then pose a few questions. There is one question though that could be asked on the back of your comment.

QUOTE To those who think that the Hornby problem is realted to CE or European emissions or similar standards:
No, that is not true. The NMRA specification specifically addresses these issues, other brands all are Ok with it

I am aware of the relevant clause in the NMRA standard. There is no obligation for manufacturers who provide equipement for conformance inspection to comply with CE emission standards at the time of the examination. How, in your opinion, does the NMRA address this issue, and do you believe a square digital wave when transmitted through model railway track at say 5 amps satisfies European CE signal noise emission standards?

I know we can speculate but I would like to hear Richard's answer.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

Peter. Please let Richard answer the question.

Hornby have not submitted their equipment to the NMRA for conformance testing and neither have Digitrax, NCE and any number of other manufacturers. Indeed there are very few manufacturers who have.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE there are some very real questions that need answers

Totally agree and there may be follow up questions depending on the answers given.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

Hello Richard and all

Nobody is doubting or questioning that the NMRA are an organisation beyond reproach and with honourable values. Simon Kohler indicated in his Model Rail interview that European EMC is not recognised in the United States as a legal requirement there. He also indicated that the NMRA appear not to recognise EMC either.

Unless I am mistaken this is the only reference in the NMRA DCC standard that relates to FCC/CE requirements:-

QUOTE All components of a NMRA compliant digital system shall meet all applicable FCC and/or CE
requirements.

The use of "and/or" is ambiguous and implies options. One or the other or both. American FCC standards are lower than European CE standards as they relate to EMC. It would be easier to meet the American FCC standard. Whilst there appear to be assurances made by the NMRA or their representative that manufacturers are aware of their obligations in this regard in order that they may claim that equipment is compliant with local regulations in whichever market they supply to, the NMRA do not police this or carry out any form of spot checks. The values of the NMRA may differ somewhat from the values of the manufacturers. What assurances do the NMRA get from manufacturers that equipement which satisfies American FCC standards only will not be the same equipment sold in Europe?

And what about American grey imports into Europe?

As an example it does seem very odd that one minute the Guagemaster Prodigy won't work with Hornby Digital and all of a sudden a new updated version is released in the UK which will.

When it comes to the NMRA DCC standard for the signal wave there is only one acceptable waveform. This part of the standard has not been modified since 1994 it would seem. Yet the European CE regulations have been modified significantly since this date. This may have been the point Simon Kohler was making in his interview and if it was he could have made it clearer. The NMRA standard appears not to keep up with legislation outside the USA and to accomodate regulation as it changes if this is indeed the case. What I would say is that Stan Ames in his book "Digital Command Control" does make reference to circumstances where non standard signal waves may be required and does suggest that the NMRA can be accomodating. That is how I read what is said by Stan.

On the waveform question asked earlier, I am taking it that the answer was "yes", a square digital wave when transmitted through railway track will satisfy all current and future European CE EMC requirements. This is the rub of the issue as Hornby may have acted with the belief that it does not/will not and may have futureproofed their product accordingly. This is how I understand the explanation provided by Hornby when speaking with them. And the fact is the only impression I get is that they genuinely believe this.

Hornby seem comfortable that the Elite will receive an NMRA certificate of compliance. They also claim that the Select is compatible (works) with all European control equipment out there. There is little evidence to suggest otherwise. Select issues seem to arrise with American equipment. Richard mentions that the views are based on 2 Hornby consoles that have been examined.

Has the Elite been examined yet?

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE Gary again this is irelevant. the hornby unit is outputting a very high peak voltage. this is putting tromendous strain on the chips

Well actually its not for those decoders that have signal dampers built into their design (European decoders by coincidence and some, but not all, American decoders). Hornby have adopted solutions that others have used for the CE EMC issue.

QUOTE A UNIT CANNOT BE SOLD IN THE UK UNLESS IT MEETS CE - PERIOD

I am so happy you have said that!

I am very glad someone has brought this issue out into the open. we can at last talk about it properly.

For example there is no NMRA standard for Loconet. Does this feature have CE certification?

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

There is much that has been said here of a technical nature and also much that can be subject to interpretion.

Hornby are informing us that CE certification is an issue. Hornby have examined DCC equipment of a large number of manufacturers. If Hornby have evidence of improper self certification then I would suggest that they pass this evidence onto the appropriate authorities and /or the NMRA and let them deal with it.

Hornby cannot continue to make the claims that are being made without making any supporting evidence public as it does have implications for organisations such as the NMRA, the CE self certification process, and others and most importantly, their customers!

Happy modelling
Gary

PS now I am not taking sides as to be perfectly honest I don't know either way. I am simply coming up with a solution that will clear the air.

 

[Gary]

QUOTE Gary, I'm struggling to see why you keep banging on about CE compliance? Everything Hornby make must meet CE standards or they couldn't sell it. It certainly has nothing to do with DCC standards and compatability.

I'm not. Hornby are. They are claiming that their product and procedures meet CE compliance. I have absolutely no doubt that they do. However they are implying that the products and procedures of others do not. They normally have evidence to support their way of thinking so I am calling for this evidence to be passed on to the appropriate authorities. It has to be for the benefit of their customers long term that they do this.

If DCC manufacturers and the NMRA are 100% confident about their own testing and CE certification arrangements for goods offered for sale within Europe or shipped to Europe then they will have absolutely nothing to worry about. Those who have doubts have much to worry about!

It is entirely the wrong approach to pussy foot around if products that are self certified are in fact failing to meet CE standard and there is evidence of this.

If products have to be withdrawn from sale in Europe or recalled then so be it!

And this will be my view next time I meet up with Hornby!

In fact I might even get an email/letter on this off to Model Rail suggesting that Hornby do exactly this and that manufactuers should re-evaluate their CE procedures! I have yet to receive my copy of Model Rail by the way.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

Hi Sydney

Hornby state in their advertising that their product "complies with EMC requirements". Is there any other DCC company who makes this claim? Simon Kohler in his Model Rail interview states that a CE marking is a legal requirement if an electrical product is sold in Europe. EMC is an attribute linked to this. Hornby have never had a CE issue. There are major hobby companies who have. They know who they are and I am not going to name names here in a public forum. Hornby say in their interview that CE EMC is not recognised in America and that the NMRA appear not too recognise it either. There are claims made here in this thread that this view is entirely inaccurate. However, the NMRA cannot speak for the manufacturers of DCC equipment and it is claimed that they do not police those manufacturers. They simply test what is offered to them in America and take it on trust that the same equipment is offered to customers worldwide. There may be procedure issues in this area. There is an argument that if a product has a CE marking then by default it "complies with EMC requirements". It is interesting however that Hornby choose to highlight EMC.

Hornby should pass on any information that they have that CE self regulation is failing to the appropriate authorities.

Its not a question of acting like a kid who has had his smarties taken away or a question of credibility.

Its a question of Hornby doing the right thing.

Manufacturers who are totally 100% confident about CE and EMC need not worry. Those who are not should!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE You missed the point we don't regard Hornby as a producer of DCC equipment at all. It's a propriety band called Hornby Digital. To call it DCC if a gross exaggeration at this stage.

If that is the case why are you taking such an interest in Hornby Digital? From your perspective its not relevant to you.

QUOTE Yes it is interesting (that Hornby choose to highlight EMC) Gary; but only in the way that Hornby are desperately trying to deflect criticism from their defective products. It's just a smoke screen and not very good either.

I agree that it could be seen this way in some quarters. It could also be seen as a sign that they know something. Hornby will have invested a considerable sum of money and time in R & D and have admitted publically to spending money on checking out Hornby Digital with other NMRA products to ensure that they function with Hornby Digital. If they have encountered a product that does not function they probably know why. Hornby should pass on any information that they have that CE self regulation is failing to the appropriate authorities.

Hornby Digital does exactly what it says on the box. The very good news about the Elite is that firmware updates are offered by a simple download over the internet.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

By the way my Model Rail arrived just as I posted the last message.

I have now read the "DCC experts respond" by Didrik Voss and Richard Johnson. They both strike me as sensible and reasonable people and have set out reasoned argument to correct what they consider to be missunderstandings in the Simon Kohler interview and provided further information. Richard has in fact said a lot more here in the forum in relation to his own personal way of thinking. There is/was certainly no cause to be jumping up and down as some forum members are/have been and unfortuneatley that had a knock on effect as other members joined in the bunfight! Didrik Voss on the face of it should get on very well with Hornby and Simon Kohler. However it is clear that a Webster's Dictionary of the Amercian Language may be required reading by Hornby!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

What has now troubled me is that MMaD when starting this thread conveniently forgot to mention the content of Chris Leigh's editorial in the same edition of Model Rail.

Chris makes a number of observations in his editorial about feedback to the Simon Kohler interview and internet forums and what has been said in these and he is spot on! And he also mentions an issue he had with a Digitrax product! The response to the interview that Chris Leigh has had from known Model Rail readers is entirely different to the response that anonymous individuals have posted on the internet. And internet forum members seem to have totally lost sight of the fact that the Hornby Digital products may not have been designed for them!

On a positive note he does conclude by saying that the interview has got people talking! He is spot on here also!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE because enthusiasts EXPECT to find such an item in a trainset, not aimed at THEIR market sector.

and there lies my point..it's a system produced to a price, for a trainset.

why every body is getting up-in-arms at Hornby I fail to comprehend.

If it doesn't suit, don't buy!

After all, we apply this same purchasing logic to other model products? (Vitrains #37 v Bachmann's??)

Thats pretty much what Chris Leigh said in his Model Rail editorial and also what Simon Kohler said in his interview. The Select has been designed for those who simply want to run several trains at a time backwards and forwards and control a few points. There are very few Select customers who will start mixing and matching components. Why would users already into "top-end" established equipment and who already mix and match go out and buy the Select?

There does seem to be a consensus that the Elite is better.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE I feel that with the Hornby systems, it is going to be down to the dealers to advise anyone wishing to expand......and possiby mix and match brands?
In the same way, in the past, a dealer advised on compatibility of stock and track?

only downside, is that many retailers of Hornby sets aren't actually model shops.

Precisely!

And are those who buy from a shop that is not a model shop ever going to pick up a copy of Model Rail or participate in a forum?

Only a very small percentage of train set buyers get hooked. A very large number of Selects sold will not be used after 6 months. That is the reality.

It seems entirely unfair that Hornby have had to take the flack that they have taken from "high-end" users. They have little knowledge of the UK train set market. Until now for all the "top-end" equipment available DCC has never really taken off in the UK. Can you wonder why?

Hornby make absolutely no claim about NMRA compatibility on any of their packaging. Hornby Digital simply does what it says on the box!

What I am wondering is how much sleep Hornby would loose if they did go down the "Hornby Digital" route?

I have a sneeky feeling that suppliers of DCC equipment to the UK who understand the UK market would be a lot more concerned by this than the current approach Hornby have adopted!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

There have been very few issues reported with the Elite.

The Hornby Forum membership comprises of a very large number of new to DCC users and a lot of issues reported are unrelated to the Select console. It has not been "made badly". That is an accusation that simply would not stand up. If Doug had said "designed badly" then that is the issue that "high-end" users have. A large number of Hornby customers if they read this would wonder what all the fuss was about!

Surely its the "high-end" users who are constantly inviting conflict with the "tech talk" and not those who have bought into Hornby Digital on the promise that it does what it says on the box!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE Seriously though, as Gary has been well & truly been put right by Richard & can debate no further on the technical side he's now banging on about the wording & marketing. Give it a rest Gary & get off your knees worshiping Hornby !

I have not been "put right by Richard". I have noted the comment by another forum member that we are going around in circles as my stock answer is for Hornby to pass on any infomation that they have about CE and EMC issues to the appropriate authorities. The subject has now moved along.

Why don't you get off your knees and be constructive rather than inviting further conflict?

Rather than constantly Hornby or member bashing what would you do about it?

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

If you have any evidence of this Richard you should be passing the information onto Hornby. Only they know how many units have been sold and returned and the reasons for the return. They claim they have many satisfied customers. It is wrong to claim that isolated incidents are commonplace without hard evidence from known customers and suppliers.

I personally have yet to have a single Hornby Digital failure, have used both the Select and Elite with Bachmann, Hornby, Lenz and Esu decoders, and I am not yet one of Hornby's statistics as a result. The fact is my consoles do operate the aforementioned decoders.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE When select actually works with all compatible decoder brands, it will naturally be able to pass NMRA conformance tests and allowed to be called DCC compatible - until then, its Hornby DCC.

There is something wrong in the thinking here.

There are very few DCC products that are put through NMRA conformance tests. Simon Kohler made this point in his interview. This thinking would mean that any product that does not have an NMRA Conformance Warrant should not be called DCC.

In which case most of DCC products bought to market are not DCC including those of TCS, Digitrax and others!

The NMRA representitive Stan Ames in his book actually states that he would not expect all NMRA compatible products to work with each other.

I can accept that.

What have Hornby actually done wrong if this is the case?

Happy modelling
Gary