Model Rail issue 107 August 2007 Hornby Digital

There is much that has been said here of a technical nature and also much that can be subject to interpretion.

Hornby are informing us that CE certification is an issue. Hornby have examined DCC equipment of a large number of manufacturers. If Hornby have evidence of improper self certification then I would suggest that they pass this evidence onto the appropriate authorities and /or the NMRA and let them deal with it.

Hornby cannot continue to make the claims that are being made without making any supporting evidence public as it does have implications for organisations such as the NMRA, the CE self certification process, and others and most importantly, their customers!

Happy modelling
Gary

PS now I am not taking sides as to be perfectly honest I don't know either way. I am simply coming up with a solution that will clear the air.

Gary, I'm struggling to see why you keep banging on about CE compliance? Everything Hornby make must meet CE standards or they couldn't sell it. It certainly has nothing to do with DCC standards and compatability.

To me it is simple.

If I plug in a Select and try to use it - it is patently obvious that it is a naff piece of kit.
It cannot program my lenz decoders
It spikes and damages decoders
the interface is awful
Only a few functions are supported
It has randomly re-programmed decoders for me

Hornby decoders are cheap, nasty little things that have poor running characteristics and blow up at the first sign of a load.

Unfortunately the Hornby digital system has been made to a price and it shows. This is the problem with public companies though - the customer comes second to the shareholder.

The Elite is somewhat better, but still has its issues. As others have said it has the makings of a good system, but needs a few tweaks.

Hornby need to wake up and fix this before it is too late. Yes, lots of people are buying the digital sets and select controllers, but how many will pack it away, never to see the light of day again and forget any railway modelling aspirations they may have had because they became disillusioned after using the select?

My big concern is that instead of widening the hobby and making digital more accessible, it will act as a turn-off for the 'train-setters' who end up with a troublesome and unreliable system.

QUOTE Gary, I'm struggling to see why you keep banging on about CE compliance? Everything Hornby make must meet CE standards or they couldn't sell it. It certainly has nothing to do with DCC standards and compatability.

I'm not. Hornby are. They are claiming that their product and procedures meet CE compliance. I have absolutely no doubt that they do. However they are implying that the products and procedures of others do not. They normally have evidence to support their way of thinking so I am calling for this evidence to be passed on to the appropriate authorities. It has to be for the benefit of their customers long term that they do this.

If DCC manufacturers and the NMRA are 100% confident about their own testing and CE certification arrangements for goods offered for sale within Europe or shipped to Europe then they will have absolutely nothing to worry about. Those who have doubts have much to worry about!

It is entirely the wrong approach to pussy foot around if products that are self certified are in fact failing to meet CE standard and there is evidence of this.

If products have to be withdrawn from sale in Europe or recalled then so be it!

And this will be my view next time I meet up with Hornby!

In fact I might even get an email/letter on this off to Model Rail suggesting that Hornby do exactly this and that manufactuers should re-evaluate their CE procedures! I have yet to receive my copy of Model Rail by the way.

Happy modelling
Gary

QUOTE Hornby need to wake up and fix this before it is too late. Yes, lots of people are buying the digital sets and select controllers, but how many will pack it away, never to see the light of day again and forget any railway modelling aspirations they may have had because they became disillusioned after using the select?

My big concern is that instead of widening the hobby and making digital more accessible, it will act as a turn-off for the 'train-setters' who end up with a troublesome and unreliable system

the gist of the above issue has been noted before by the larger(?) manufacturers.....very much pre-DCC.

A time when trainsets....the usual [and popular] route into model trains.....could be found containing cheap and nasty..ie basic, controllers....obviously 'built down to a price?

The policy seemed to be...''it'll do to get something running on Xmas day?'

Perhaps Hornby still have this attitude?

perhaps Hornby didn't feel 'serious' [DCC} enthusiasts would give their cheapo system a second look?

Wil Hornby actually worry about this critisiscm?

I doubt it, for the reason, I doubt the average parent looking at a Harry Potter trainset , or its ilk, a basic set as sold in every Argos catalogue,would dream of investgating forums such as this one, with a view to garnering opinion.

call me cynical, but I believe enthusiasts' needs are but the icing on Hornby's cake....

now, if Which? magasine had gotten hold of the undoubted evidence from the likes of Richard Johnson, et al, perhaps Hornby's pigeons would have been well and truly done.

as was observed early on...(and I believe, indirectly referred to in Model Rail's editorial) , Hornby, like any modern commercial concern, is not above a bit of spin,to deflect critics?

At the end of the day all any modeller wants is a system which work's ok, the same as all the other dcc systems, the main problem with Hornby dcc is that it has been made to a price and it show's.
When the select was launched, last year I e mailed Gaugemaster asking about the problems with the Hornby decoder I had a phone call back and given a explanation what the problems were even then, last november, the waveforms given out by the Select had been checked by Gaugemaster , I was also offered the chance to return the prodigy back and it would be rechipped so i could use a Hornby decoder, as the prodigy had worked ok with all the other decoder's 21 in total I decided not to bother.
Gary your defence of Hornby has to be admired, but at the end of the day Hornby WILL HAVE TO CHANGE OR LOOSE SALES I AND I SUSPECT MANY OTHERS WILL NOT BUY A HORNBY LOCO FITTED WITH THAT DECODER.
Richard Johnstone has no axe to grind about Hornby and is a expert in his field, I know who i would listen to.

QUOTE Unfortunately the Hornby digital system has been made to a price and it shows. This is the problem with public companies though - the customer comes second to the shareholder.

Hornby need to wake up and fix this before it is too late. Yes, lots of people are buying the digital sets and select controllers, but how many will pack it away, never to see the light of day again and forget any railway modelling aspirations they may have had because they became disillusioned after using the select?

My big concern is that instead of widening the hobby and making digital more accessible, it will act as a turn-off for the 'train-setters' who end up with a troublesome and unreliable system.

The price factor is what has affected the Hornby Digital adventure. You cannot do DCC on the cheap. This is what happens if you do and you were warned about this a long time ago. While the Hornby interpretation of DCC allows a cheap taster of what DCC is like it could just as easily leave a bad taste in your mouth when its problems are known. What I don't understand is why the Hornby DCC has been relentlessly defended by a couple of people who should know better?

QUOTE call me cynical, but I believe enthusiasts' needs are but the icing on Hornby's cake....

Thats not cynicism, it's the reality. Hornby know who their customers are and modellers like the people on this forum are not their bread and butter. We are a sideline not the majority.

Hi Sydney

Hornby state in their advertising that their product "complies with EMC requirements". Is there any other DCC company who makes this claim? Simon Kohler in his Model Rail interview states that a CE marking is a legal requirement if an electrical product is sold in Europe. EMC is an attribute linked to this. Hornby have never had a CE issue. There are major hobby companies who have. They know who they are and I am not going to name names here in a public forum. Hornby say in their interview that CE EMC is not recognised in America and that the NMRA appear not too recognise it either. There are claims made here in this thread that this view is entirely inaccurate. However, the NMRA cannot speak for the manufacturers of DCC equipment and it is claimed that they do not police those manufacturers. They simply test what is offered to them in America and take it on trust that the same equipment is offered to customers worldwide. There may be procedure issues in this area. There is an argument that if a product has a CE marking then by default it "complies with EMC requirements". It is interesting however that Hornby choose to highlight EMC.

Hornby should pass on any information that they have that CE self regulation is failing to the appropriate authorities.

Its not a question of acting like a kid who has had his smarties taken away or a question of credibility.

Its a question of Hornby doing the right thing.

Manufacturers who are totally 100% confident about CE and EMC need not worry. Those who are not should!

Happy modelling
Gary

QUOTE (Gary @ 18 Jul 2007, 08:28) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It is interesting however that Hornby choose to highlight EMC.

Happy modelling
Gary
Yes it is interesting Gary; but only in the way that Hornby are desperately trying to deflect criticism from their defective products. It's just a smoke screen and not very good either.

Whatever they say in public, behind closed doors I'll bet there's a lot of concern.
No matter what the proportion of Adult modellers is in relation to the wider toy market, the potential for DCC products being sold into that sector may be the difference between profit and loss. I'm sure the DCC plan took this group into account?

Insinuating that some other brands of DCC are being sold illegally is a very serious charge and may land you in hot water if you're not careful. Claiming that you are only repeating Hornby comments is no defence either!

The simple fact is that other brands and systems work properly; Hornby's don't! Period!

QUOTE You missed the point we don't regard Hornby as a producer of DCC equipment at all. It's a propriety band called Hornby Digital. To call it DCC if a gross exaggeration at this stage.

If that is the case why are you taking such an interest in Hornby Digital? From your perspective its not relevant to you.

QUOTE Yes it is interesting (that Hornby choose to highlight EMC) Gary; but only in the way that Hornby are desperately trying to deflect criticism from their defective products. It's just a smoke screen and not very good either.

I agree that it could be seen this way in some quarters. It could also be seen as a sign that they know something. Hornby will have invested a considerable sum of money and time in R & D and have admitted publically to spending money on checking out Hornby Digital with other NMRA products to ensure that they function with Hornby Digital. If they have encountered a product that does not function they probably know why. Hornby should pass on any information that they have that CE self regulation is failing to the appropriate authorities.

Hornby Digital does exactly what it says on the box. The very good news about the Elite is that firmware updates are offered by a simple download over the internet.

Happy modelling
Gary

Whilst I may not have the modelling experience that others have I still consider myself to have a good deal of common sense. That common sense tells me that this thread is going round and round a very small circle with Gary in the middle. So Gary why don't you just agree to disagree and let Hornby get on with whatever they need to do to solve this situation. If as you say Hornby have evidence of non conformance by other manaufacturers let them use that in the right arena to bring a resolution to this sorry state of affairs. No matter how many times you say they must have evidence and that they should bring it to the correct authorities attention does not alter the facts. You may well believe that but it is apparent that many others don't and no amount of constant repetitive calls by you for Hornby to do it willl alter opinion on here. Opinion on here can ONLY be changed by Hornby doing whatever is required by them to prove their case. It really is time to 'put up or shutup' for Hornby. I am quite sure they have a presence on here in one form other than yourself Gary and they at least could have the backbone to respond to the criticisms posted on here and in Model Rail even if it is to say that they will be producing this so called evidence to the correct authorities.

I have no axe to grind with Hornby or any other manufacturer and certainly do not intend to take sides in this debate. IF Hornby are correct in their actions they will be able to prove it without your assistance. I feel you are digging a huge hole for yourself with this and your credibility already questioned by others is at stake. For the sake of yours, the forums and the hobbies credibility why don't you let Hornby do what they have to and move on. You can come back to the forum with your views when something more positive one way or the other is revealed and we can discuss it in a better informed manner then.

It is time to realise your role is not as defender of Hornby they are big enough to do that on their own. Stand back let the issues take their course and see what happens then.

Chris

By the way my Model Rail arrived just as I posted the last message.

I have now read the "DCC experts respond" by Didrik Voss and Richard Johnson. They both strike me as sensible and reasonable people and have set out reasoned argument to correct what they consider to be missunderstandings in the Simon Kohler interview and provided further information. Richard has in fact said a lot more here in the forum in relation to his own personal way of thinking. There is/was certainly no cause to be jumping up and down as some forum members are/have been and unfortuneatley that had a knock on effect as other members joined in the bunfight! Didrik Voss on the face of it should get on very well with Hornby and Simon Kohler. However it is clear that a Webster's Dictionary of the Amercian Language may be required reading by Hornby!

Happy modelling
Gary

What has now troubled me is that MMaD when starting this thread conveniently forgot to mention the content of Chris Leigh's editorial in the same edition of Model Rail.

Chris makes a number of observations in his editorial about feedback to the Simon Kohler interview and internet forums and what has been said in these and he is spot on! And he also mentions an issue he had with a Digitrax product! The response to the interview that Chris Leigh has had from known Model Rail readers is entirely different to the response that anonymous individuals have posted on the internet. And internet forum members seem to have totally lost sight of the fact that the Hornby Digital products may not have been designed for them!

On a positive note he does conclude by saying that the interview has got people talking! He is spot on here also!

Happy modelling
Gary

Please gents, do not enter into personal attacks.

Also, if something is said once, don't repeat it again and again. Doing so will not make it more relevant.

I do not side with Gary, but he is trying to clear the air in a way. At least this has stimulated some debate and has brought out many issues into the public realm. Gary does not represent Hornby, but he is unfortunately seen as a mouthpiece. I do think that Gary is too eager to believe the word of the Hornby representative over other experts. I believe that much of what I have heard personally from various Hornby representatives is wrong and sometimes contradictory. This has been talked about before.

Hornby had a chance to revolutionise the UK DCC market, they had the Arnold DCC technology, the should have learned from Zero-1, they had seen the problems with Scalextric Digital, and they shouldn't have been driven to a Christmas deadline and price constraints.

I think that a certain amount of damage has been done to the market and as long as there are Select units and Hornby decoders in the market, the damage continues.

Bachmann have now have had a good look at al this mess and are now delaying the release their higher-end UK DCC product so as, in part, not make the same mistakes as Hornby. Lets hope that they get it right.

I challenge Frank Martin to make a statement on the current state of Hornby Digital and what Hornby intends to do about existing non-compliant products for existing customers and what they intend to produce in the future and how they intend to do it.

Click to expand...

Perhaps someone with Frank Martin's email address can pass that on to him.

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 18 Jul 2007, 10:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You missed the point we don't regard Hornby as a producer of DCC equipment at all. It's a propriety band called Hornby Digital. To call it DCC if a gross exaggeration at this stage.

DCC?

am I missing something in that description?

Is there a close definition of what constitutes 'DCC?'

or is it simply a generic term defining a type of control exercised over independant electric motors (in engines?)

I feel it is the latter.....therefore it matters not HOW that control is achieved (and I suspect in the future, DCC equipment may well look, and be constructed from, very diferent components to what we find today....)

Thus, Hornby are quite entitled to call their systems 'DCC' if they so wish.......in the same way they can call their products 'model railways'....

Their control MAY have considerable limitations, compared to others.

They may NOT be compatitble.....just like Lionel 3 rail is incompatible with Peco track....

The above comment smacks a bit of ''Reliant Robins aren't REAL cars?''

QUOTE If that is the case why are you taking such an interest in Hornby Digital? From your perspective its not relevant to you.

Every DCC user should take a keen interest in this debate. It's simply not a case of localised use, there are much wider implications. What is being conveniently overlooked is the while the product is labelled DCC , there is more than a good chance that customers and consumers might be confused.
An unstable or unreliable system will put first time users off of the wonders of the application of Digital Technology. Up to this point almost all DCC decoders were quite capable of being swooped between systems without problems. As we are likely to see DCC on board shortly it stands to reason such decoders should be capable of universal use. IE. they respond with the set standards on basic commands. This even more important when considering sound decoders which was the subject of a recent thread. You only have to read the news groups regularly to read about folks loosing their sound on UK diesels when they have no ideal on how to change basic CV's or have a system that cannot achieve this. If a certain member of this forum wants interpret this as Hornby knocking too bad. We have all be subjected to his spin about this system. Again I want to clearly state if hornby want to go non standard that's their decision based on their assessment of the market, that folks is Hornby Digital. However DCC is different it is not propriety brand. DCC should respond to the same basic set of NMRA standards. How they achieve this is left to individual companies and organisations, and it's for consumers to select which method they prefer.

Gary
" you have been specifically requested not to make this personal", Yet you take every comment about Hornby Digital as a challenge to aggressively attack members of this forum in a personal manner. It surely is time to gracefully accept that you and Hornby's product are out of step with mainstream DCC.