Model Rail issue 107 August 2007 Hornby Digital

It is so comfortable for you here on this forum playing with words isn't it:

I'll start with apologizing for the other modellers on list: sorry it is such a long post.

Alistair - before I start, Re your comment about building a highland loco: ….Why should anyone care about the material: If you make the model properly nobody will be able to see whether its brass or card, will they? Brass is anyway a common but not necessarily perfect material for loco models, so just go ahead and enjoy the building of it.

Re DCC:

You are simply wrong. Totally wrong DCC is NMRA DCC, and even H say that on their website, clear and simple.

Re your later post, Zero one was an analog muti-train system, not digital. There were many at that time, most quite good but lack of a standard doomed them all.

DCC as used on list and in the real world is a short form of NMRA DCC. It was a name given to the industry with conditions - largely by the same brand that hornby claims compatibility with.

It is a name allowed to be used only by the brands that do it properly, and its stewardship is in the hands of the NMRA. It is defendable and claimable on that basis. NMRA have when necessary brought action to bear on MR issues, and they have a sunstatial legal budget so will if they see fit do again as needed… They do hope that it will never be needed in this area as they bend over backwards to make it simple to comply.

Yes, other brands did and still do it their way:

BUT - The other brands who have gone their own way use names such as MFX (Marklin) Marklin Digital (Marklin) Flieschmann FMZ etc. etc. Where various protocols were covered, they say so, such as in decoders with ESU Lokpilot and ESU LokPilot DCC where it is an NMRA DCC product

Only the one we discuss shows no respect for the standards and the DCC name.

Re Select:

I see Gary mindlessly defending Hornby and now you saying it is actually really OK that select is down and dirty or cheap and cheerful because it really isn't a serious product anyway, is probably short term and will only be bought by train set buyers.

All word games that totally ignore reality from both of you. This is a real product in a real market and real people are being let down, disappointed and disillusioned every day by it.

So…

Sorry, but to me and the many who are burned by it... it is NOT OK that it is not compatible with other digital products and it is NOT OK that it has operating quirks and a bad waveform that creates damage to decoders, it is NOT OK that it has a poor internal power supply that creates problems when recovering from a short circuit.

It is NOT OK that the select won't work with other brand and NOT OK that hornby decoders won't work with other controllers… or even work for long with a Hornby controller.

Especially, Its NOT OK for Hornby to call it compatible with DCC. because it is not.

I'm not yelling at you, but I see the reality and clearly, you do not. Let me tell you about the real world and why I take an interest in this issue:

It is because I see the aftermath of the Select every Week, sometimes several times. In the REAL world where all these word games have absolutely no value, no relevance at all in fact.

They are NOT the problems of the cogniscenti or the train-set person you talk about, they are the great mass in between them… those who are semi- aware but have no real knowledge, want a wee bit more from the next step up from the train-set level and might just if we are lucky be the next generation of modellers one day.

They are all….simply the ones you both totally ignore in all this not so clever point scoring debate.

Like

(1) Modellers who thought they'd try DCC and bought the Select thinking it was a cheap way to experiment now totally convinced DCC is not worth the trouble.

(2) Disappointed and disillusioned pensioners who thought it might be a low cost way into DCC so they spend their precious little hobby money on it, to find that their loco's can't run at the club, their decoders die mysteriously and that those that don't reset to number 3 every time there is a momentary short on the layout.

(and lets face it, there are always momentary shorts with hornby or Peco points and badly adjusted back to backs!).

(3) School kids who come to me because nobody in the "box mover" shops really understands DCC and they are upset that they followed the instructions but their decoder, bought with pocket money or the after school job money has blown, and the retailer won't replace it.

(4) Grand-dads who buy a Hornby train-set for the grand-sons birthday because they had hornby as a child but the loco's now won't run, those that do keep forgetting their number and now grandson is annoyed with grand-dad as his new toy won't work, and grand-dad can't understand why.

(5) Modellers who had the low cost Bachmann EZ command which worked very well who then made the mistake of buying the Hornby Select because they thought it was an upgrade - but found it was in fact just a disaster.

Then, I get the retailers who look for help:

They've been sold the hornby digital as DCC and the paperwork reinforces that. They are mostly good people and they sold it in good faith..

BUT…now they are faced with angry or upset customers… Hornbys reps deny a problem and THEY end up with egg on their face, carrying the cost to both reputation and the bottom line in losses.

Gentlemen you make me very sad: You play with words and speak with no knowledge, portraying yourselves as paragons. You excuse mediocrity and error.

You defend a product that is clearly less than satisfactory.

I have said my piece on this issue clearly, politely, patiently and in non technical words that every intelligent list member can understand
.
The point is, I think, clearly made and I do not want to go on forever, so my contribution to the list on this subject will end with this email unless there are any specific sensible questions of value.

ANY other DCC or modelling subject - I'm always happy to discuss.

Richard
DCCconcepts

QUOTE (Gary @ 20 Jul 2007, 10:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There have been very few issues reported with the Elite.

The Hornby Forum membership comprises of a very large number of new to DCC users and a lot of issues reported are unrelated to the Select console. It has not been "made badly". That is an accusation that simply would not stand up. If Doug had said "designed badly" then that is the issue that "high-end" users have.

Surely its the "high-end" users who are constantly inviting conflict with the "tech talk" and not those who have bought into Hornby Digital on the promise that it does what it says on the box!

Happy modelling
Gary

The Elite works reasonably well - and in a couple of Firmware updates time, might work very well. I'm certainly fairly happy with mine.

But the Select, though it may do what it says on the box, does not do what it says in the box. And that is work to NRMA standard.

Go to the Hornby website - go to products and order a Select - at every stage it says Hornby DCC every step of the way - no picture of the box is provided.

Given that Hornby define DCC as the NRMA standard - would a reasonable person not assume that the Select is NRMA DCC compatible / compliant.

James

QUOTE Hornby's selected system is not DCC as defined by Hornby.

Hornby define what they mean by DCC (in product glossaries and manuals and elsewhere) as being the NRMA standard.

If it they claim it's DCC (which they do), define what they mean by DCC (which they do), and the product fail to meet that standard, then it probably isn't fit for purpose.

how so?

QUOTE Digital Command Control.The application of computer technology to control the movements of locomotives.Each locomotive is fitted with a decoder (or 'chip') which is uniquely programmed and recognises its own identity and responds only to those control signals which are addressed to it. DCC also allows a wide range of extras including controllable lighting and on-board sound.The accepted standards have been laid down by the NMRA (National Model Railroad Association) an American Association

Hornby describe WHAT DCC control is.

The NMRA do NOT define DCC control!
They merely publish a set of VALUES for various components or functions.
If makers follow those published values, they ensure compatibility with others who do likewise.

that is all.

Just because a wheel does not follow NMRA standards in its dimensions, doesn't make it 'not fit for purpose'...

what is really being said herein, seems to me to be..'if Hornby's Select does not FOLLOW or comply with NMRA standards, it's no good to me?'

Which is a wholly different idea to the legal one of 'fit for purpose?'

Incidentally, reference the part the internet has played in allowing folk to express their views easily.....I wonder what would have happend...what would have been said, all those years ago, when Marklin sold model trains that ran on stud contact, with AC current, and I'm pretty sure I'mm right, not using 12 volts?

would they have been villified as much?

It's nice to see this arguement has become a little more civil.
I have some questions for the boffins. Does the Elite share the same modified "Hornby DCC" signal as the Select & does it threaten to nuke your decoders with masive voltage spikes?
Most of the uproar has been created by the Select but not much said re the Elite. Is the Elite's troubles with TCS decoders likely to be software related, therefore curable, or does it stem from said unusual output?
Earlier in this thread comment was made about the failure of Hornby's decoders, what controllers are responsible for blowing them up? I have 6 Hornby decoders and no problems yet, what is the life expectancy when combined with the Elite ?
I'd like to see some level headed answers to these questions, so please no shots at Hornby that aren't factual.
Cheers
Paul (my Elite works ) M

QUOTE (alastairq @ 20 Jul 2007, 11:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>how so?
Hornby describe WHAT DCC control is.

Inded - and they describe it as being the NRMA standard.

QUOTE The NMRA do NOT define DCC control!
They merely publish a set of VALUES for various components or functions.
If makers follow those published values, they ensure compatibility with others who do likewise.

that is all.

That is irrelevant as Hornby define DCC as being to the NRMA standard.

QUOTE Just because a wheel does not follow NMRA standards in its dimensions, doesn't make it 'not fit for purpose'...

If the wheel is sold as being to NRMA standards it does.

QUOTE what is really being said herein, seems to me to be..'if Hornby's Select does not FOLLOW or comply with NMRA standards, it's no good to me?'

NO - what is being said here, is that the Select is claimed to follow the NRMA standards by Hornby but does not - that is why it probably isn't fit for purpose.

Read Richards excellent post above - he explains why all this is a big problem for the hobby.

James

Paul:

I'm sure you weren't addreesing the plea for a direct answer to anyone but just for the record I have never issued a single word that on this issue is not factual and will not start now.

The Elite is a very different product to the Select.

It addresses many of the select problems, has some quite nice features but is not yet as good as it will eventually be. Much of its needed change will be able to be done via software upgrades.

So... the elite still has some quirks that need sorting, and from waht I can see Hornby seems to be doing it. There are some issues with the waveform but nothing like the Select and there is still software some unnecessary error that will stop it working with far more than TCS decoders. I cannot comment on the decoder life with select because I haven't done specific trials with elite and hornby decoder life.

When select actually works with all compatible decoder brands, it will naturally be able to pass NMRA conformance tests and allowed to be called DCC compatible - until then, its Hornby DCC.

Select has the makings of a very good product and I am really hopeful it will get there very soon.

SK's comment in the interview that they will submit it for conformance testing is hopefully true, as this will bring them into line with true DCC for most operational issues. There will still be a unique Hornby approach in some areas, but that is perfectly OK...nobody limits any Mfr from aking exclusive approaches to issues and it is down to user / buyer preferences in those areas as they doesn't create compatibility issues.

Regards

Richard Johnson
DCCconcepts

*** You asked:
Does the Elite share the same modified "Hornby DCC" signal as the Select & does it threaten to nuke your decoders with masive voltage spikes? most of the uproar has been created by the Select but not much said re the Elite. Is the Elite's troubles with TCS decoders likely to be software related, therefore curable, or does it stem from said unusual output? Earlier in this thread comment was made about the failure of Hornby's decoders, what controllers are responsible for blowing them up? I have 6 Hornby decoders and no problems yet, what is the life expectancy when combined with the Elite ? I'd like to see some level headed answers to these questions, so please no shots at Hornby that aren't factual.

Hello Gary

*** You said: It is wrong to claim that isolated incidents are commonplace without hard evidence from known customers and suppliers.

REJ:
No, these are not isolated incidents. They have existed / with initial release and continue.

I claim nothing, I state facts.

They are all suppliers, users and customers known to me. Many have tried communicating to Hornby for a very long time, they need to actually listen properly.

My responsibility is to my clients and DCC in general.

***You said: And it is entirely wrong to play an emotional card in a forum.

REJ: Please re-read your own evangelical posts a little.

Richard
DCCconcepts

QUOTE When select actually works with all compatible decoder brands, it will naturally be able to pass NMRA conformance tests and allowed to be called DCC compatible - until then, its Hornby DCC.

There is something wrong in the thinking here.

There are very few DCC products that are put through NMRA conformance tests. Simon Kohler made this point in his interview. This thinking would mean that any product that does not have an NMRA Conformance Warrant should not be called DCC.

In which case most of DCC products bought to market are not DCC including those of TCS, Digitrax and others!

The NMRA representitive Stan Ames in his book actually states that he would not expect all NMRA compatible products to work with each other.

I can accept that.

What have Hornby actually done wrong if this is the case?

Happy modelling
Gary

QUOTE Inded - and they describe it as being the NRMA standard.

I have quoted from Hornby's Glossary of terms.

Hornby define DCC as a 'concept', describing in basic terms, how DCC is achieved.

The 'accepted' standards laid down by the NMRA are values.

The NMRA have not, as far as I can read, laid down any 'defintion' of what 'DCC' should actually BE.

Hornby state QUOTE Designed to be NMRA compatible...for definate with the Elite...nowhere do they state this or imply it on the blurb for the Select.....[I've just had a local dealer go throught the instructins in a Select box!}

If this is wrong, then the mistake should be pointed out to Hornby?

They dont say the Elite IS nmra compliant...just that they 'designed' it to be.

As Richard says...playing on words?

the problem seems to be the 'perception' of what Hornby state?

QUOTE As to my post, what emotional card is that Paul? Each example was real life and actually happened, and those sorts of things continue to happen. I simply said it as I see it, as I always do

to be fair, Richard, you have played an 'emotional' card.....simply by listing the types of disappointed customer you have had contact with.

Putting that list into a commercial context, they all represent a very tiny minority of customers......as do all enthusiasts.

what might be interesting to know, is Hornby's figures for returns/rejects from dealers, etc...on the Select system?

If even Hornby find those figures unacceptably high, then there really is an 'issue' over their product.

But, if those figures fall inside Hornby's idea of an acceptable level of failure..either their criteria are unacceptable, or the problem is more 'isolated' than is thought?

I think a read through Hornby's guarentee (note the 'lenght'....an idea of how Hornby view the Select?) will give a clue as to where things have gone astray...from a consumer's viewpoint.

The fact is, the Select is cheap and cheerful.

just like £15 DVD players.

it should have been viewed as such....not by commentators herein, but by the consumer.

I suspect a lot of folk were hoping to get more than they were willing to pay for?

which is an attitude many a small producer/business person can complain about these days?

Hi Gary

I was wrong: wrong product name. I meant to say Elite - sorry.

SK actually stated in the interview that H would submit it for testing... very clearly.

Actually in fact if it eventually bcomes totally compatible/complies like most other products, that'd be fine with everyone I think too - but SK/Hornby made the "submit for NMRA testing" statement, not me, and as I said, I was happy to read it as it implies they really will eventually conform.

My point:

If it is change for testing (no point in submitting it otherwise) then the decoders that will not work with Elite now (and it does currently have some quality of control problems with some ESU decoders) will work with Elite when the changes needed to the unit are done, as they will have to be for it to pass.

The Stan Ames comment needs full and proper context:

That does of course not mean that every single feature of every product will always be interchangeable, but it does mean that at the basic track level, all basic commands and responses will work properly irrespective of brand. That is the goal of the standards, not draconian insistence on brands all being clones of each other.

There will still be "frills" that aren't global - like the way Hornby chooses to segment addressing between accessory and loco decoders, and things like loconet/railcom/etc are all propritetary issues, and aren''t covered or required.

Sorry Gary: Your last statements are simply wrong: All the other brands are universally compatible at basic levels - they are compatible with DCC and entitled to be called DCC. Right now, Hornby Select never will be, and whilst Elite is close it is not yet quite there, but it does have all of us with fingers crossed that it will get there.

Richard
DCCconcepts

Hi Alistair

Fair enough: I didn't see it as emotional but trying to show that there were real people being affected in a very real way. I accept that different perspective can create a different view.

Question: Accepting commercial reality, does that make it OK to market a product that by implication is less than it claims to be, or is less reliable?

My own thought: to the CFO or accountant possibly - But to me, a multi generational brand like Hornby also has responsibilities - if not to their historic client base, then to the positive future of the brand.

I am actually not so much of a romatic to ingnore commerical reality, but I vale quality and repect clients, so I do business in black and white, not shades of gray, and expect the same of brands like H that I do, in the main, genuinely respect.

Which Highland Loco are you making?

Richard

QUOTE Which Highland Loco are you making?

I'm having a crack at an '18' class small goods.....a 2-4-0 tender engine..probably# 27......since I have a photo...also probably kitted out as per post 1902-3!

Nice plain green paint...no lining....less complicated cab roof.....'Crewe' influence, so motion partly hidden by an outside frame ....which handily doesn't actually involve the drivers.

no immediate plans for mechanism....if I can't find my stock of small old motors, I might use a small mashima...as long as it's cheap!
But I do fancy one of those multi-stage gearbox things.....a ratio of around 108:1 appeals....tedious for fly shunting...but if I build a layout that is tiny, then it'll take longer from bufferstop to bufferstop!

no...no DCC.... I still haven't had decent mileage out of the little feedback handheld controllers I bought 15 years ago!

[mind, all this talk about Hornby reminds me of how I discovered the shortcomings of one controller, nearly brand new...got so hot running a couple of Athearn diesels on a British Region NMRA modular layout years ago.....part of the casing melted, onto my thumb! Got short shrift when I complained to the makers.....something about 'what d'you expect with two Athearns?''.....I learnt to let it cool down after 30 minutes!]

small businesses need to have a very different approach to customers compared to large one's.

large one's seem to employ someone specially to make all the right noises....regardless?

Perhaps ,in reality (commercially?) we are lucky that Hornby does actually pay attention to our needs as enthusiasts?
After all, they don't, commercially, have to?