Model Rail issue 107 August 2007 Hornby Digital

Oh dear we seem to be going round in circles again, but most of what needs to said, is again mentioned in Mr Johnson's post's, so why are people continuing to defend Hornby Digital? Also the press can be misleading at times, in Chris Leighs editorial he mentions the Digitrax 9-pin chip (which incidently was exactly what he needed) in a way that implies that you no longer can get their decoders with a standard plug fitted which is not the case.

I asked this question earlier but will ask it again, and I hope most of you will respond with what you can consider to be your honest reply. If you were a retailer and somebody asked you (and bear in mind they come with the select unit) "Is this Hornby Digital set compatable with other DCC systems?" how would you answer?
Sid.

P.S. Alastair, I loved your response to the Reliant's lack of performance by refering to the use of their engines in motorsport, and I am assuming you are refering to the 750cc Motor Club, but even they added a 4th wheel before they went racing. I did hear once, that they had a race for Robins down at the local banger track.....

Hi Alistair

Nice to not talk digital

Nice little loco - lots of character like most of the Scottish loco's - pragmatic designs but still with a bit of flair and style in the looks department. I model Midland but I still hanker after building a model of Inverness Shed with that lovely water tower over the turntable access tracks... I built mould masters for the shed years ago but thats as far as it got.

I do have a Jones goods in the display cabinet as a token start if I ever get it done! In post 1928 / LMS livery though I'm afraid.

Regards

Richard
DCCconcepts
(Who builds his own loco's too)

I'm having a crack at an '18' class small goods.....a 2-4-0 tender engine..probably# 27......since I have a photo...also probably kitted out as per post 1902-3!

Nice plain green paint...no lining....less complicated cab roof.....'Crewe' influence, so motion partly hidden by an outside frame ....which handily doesn't actually involve the drivers.

QUOTE so why are people continuing to defend Hornby Digital?

I don't think it is a case of 'defending' Hornby..or its digital control.

If they wish, they can do so themselves.

for my part, there is an issue with HOW Hornby [digital, Select] is being 'attacked.'

I agree there may be issues of compatibility and reliability.....but to go further and challenge Hornby's position regarding description and use of defintion is pushing the envelope a bit.

QUOTE I asked this question earlier but will ask it again, and I hope most of you will respond with what you can consider to be your honest reply. If you were a retailer and somebody asked you (and bear in mind they come with the select unit) "Is this Hornby Digital set compatable with other DCC systems?" how would you answer?

Firstly, if I were a Hornby retailer, but having the [limited] technical knowledge 'I' have, I would suggest either they [or I] contact Hornby for an answer.

or, suggest they go online to here
for a specification for the Select unit.

I would then make the observation that Hornby do not mention compatibility with other makes.

However, as a retailer , personally I would ensure I 'knew my product'...and would be aware of the above issues with Select....and answer honestly.

But I would not refer to the product as [email protected], or any other such generalisation.

However, I would ensure the customer had enough understandable information to make a value judgement as to which way to jump.

After all, 'Select's'limitations may be acceptable to them?

This thread seems to be staggering round in semantic circles.

From an outsider's point of view , I don't place much weight on the somewhat theological debate about the meaning of DCC .

Put very simply, DCC is one of a number of digital systems that have been marketed. There was ZeroOne. There was Airfix's MTC (or was that analogue) There is the Marklin /Motorola system . And there is DCC

Now all the different types of digital system are completely incompatible with each other. You cannot run ZeroOne chips on the Marklin system , or on DCC. Marklin decoders will not run on DCC unless there have specifically been designed also to be DCC decoders

Claims that "Hornby Digital is not DCC" or "Hornby Digital is a proprietary system not DCC" claim that Hornby have designed something completely separate from and different to DCC. Its a claim that "this isn't a car - it's a trolleybus". It also effectively states that all Hornby Digital products are incompatible with DCC and are designed to be so

Hornby decoders will certainly run on a Lenz DCC system. This wouldn't be possible if they had been designed to be something other than DCC. Neither the decoder nor the Lenz system has any "dual boot capabilty". I haven't made the experiment on NCE and I understand there are problems with Gaugemaster/MRC. Goodness knows what the situation is with Digitrax. There are compatibility problems - but its badly executed DCC not something completely different

Lenz and I believe some Digitrax decoders will run on a Hornby Select system. They are not dual mode decoders. Again - if the Select were something other than DCC , no DCC decoder would work on it at all

I've seen the oscilloscope traces - nobody surely designs or specifies a signal like that

The Select is a seemingly defective DCC product , resulting in compatibility problems with other DCC equipment , not a perfect product based on a system other than DCC. Evidently there are some technical glitrches in the Elite but far fewer and far less serious than in the Select. - I base this on the comments above .

If a car has rust , a dodgy transmission, the wheels fall off and it can't cope with unleaded petrol it's still a car. It may not be a car I'd buy or recommend, but a car it remains - not a "proprietary transport concept" nor a trolleybus. If it fails EU emission regs or its MOT - its still a car

The Elite is a DCC system with glitches . It is really time we started talking about the Elite , because that is the Hornby system anyone seriously thinking of buying a DCC system for the long term might actually look at buying. And the current debate risks suggesting that if the Select has a problem (or problems) those must be inherent features of all Hornby digital products . Clearly this is not the case , and "issues" with one Hornby DCC product relate to that product on its own

I asked this question earlier but will ask it again, and I hope most of you will respond with what you can consider to be your honest reply. If you were a retailer and somebody asked you (and bear in mind they come with the select unit) "Is this Hornby Digital set compatable with other DCC systems?" how would you answer?
Sid.

As a very small model retailer the Hornby 'DCC' is a disaster for me. I currently have two new locos awaiting replacement parts after taking off from a standing start flat out and stripping teeth from gears or hurtling off on to a floor. In addition we have had dud chips which don't do anything at all or burn out (sounds a bit like Zero 1). Hornby clearly state that their DCC is compatable with various basic standards and therefore other systems (I have checked their public website today, the claims are still there). If a manufacturer makes such a statement we as a retailer have little option but to take it at face value and pass it on to our customers, we are held accountable by customer protection laws (not fit for the purpose) and we take the hit. As far as I am aware there is no similar protection for us. It is then up to us to try and get compensation from the manufacturer - which takes time and money, and we end up with a credit note if we are lucky. Withholding payments is unlikely to work as they will simply stop supplying the shop, which hurts us a lot more than it does them!
Hornby must make it quite clear that their system, as it stands, is only able to operate within the Hornby envelope. The basic sets seemed to be a good way of starting out in DCC and were promoted as such.
Now I am aware of the general problem both from my own experiences and this Forum (silence from Hornby) I am informing all potential customers of the limitations of the Hornby system and they can make their own decision.
My own decision will be to cancel a number of existing orders and only stock a bare minimum, if any, Hornby Digital until such time as compatability issues have been properly dealt with.
This is just one very small retailers viewpoint.
PS Are Hornby promoting the same system with their International products as I forsee major problems if they are!

QUOTE (Dinwiddy @ 21 Jul 2007, 21:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>PS Are Hornby promoting the same system with their International products as I forsee major problems if they are!
In mainland Europe they'll have to sort out the wrinkles with the Elite before it's launched. DCC is well established in markets like Germany, with plenty of recognised and established competitors.
I remain optomistic that software/firmware (whatever) updates will eventual produce a credible system and maybe an international launch will spur that on?

I would have thought launching the Select into those markets would be a disaster for Hornby International as a brand.

QUOTE I would have thought launching the Select into those markets would be a disaster for Hornby International as a brand.

As far as offering the product to mature DCC markets I am inclined to agree if it is launched in its current form.

There is no doubt in my mind that without conformance Hornby would in fact be wasting their time completely!

Mature markets (USA excepted as always!) are used to paying higher prices however.

It must be remembered that Hornby are not Hornby International and they are two seperate parts of the group with different management responsible to different groups of customers and possibly each having their own independent R & D budgets. Hornby International are almost certainly looking at the Elite and seeing what they can do with that.

The only real conclusion is that the Select is a train set product and as such it is amazing that Mr DCC types are so concerned about it!

It could well be that different regulations apply to toys and train sets to serious DCC kit and this has not be factored in.

The Elite is the serious kit that we here on this forum should be discussng!

And the new Saphire decoder possibly yet to be launched by Hornby.

Happy modelling
Gary

QUOTE The Elite is the serious kit that we here on this forum should be discussng!

And the new Saphire decoder possibly yet to be launched by Hornby.

Whatever happened to the Sapphire decoder?

Hello Sid

I am a specialist reseller of DCC, a teacher of DCC, an installer of DCC, a fixer of DCC problems and a consultant on DCC issues, as well as being a modeller who uses DCC. I do not sell trains in red or blue boxes at all. I do have a great respect for current Hornby offerings except fot the digital products.

The following is my personal opinion:

The only correct or honest answer to that question is:
"No, The Select is really a basic digital trainset controller, and while it seems the same, unfortunately it is not reliably compatible with other DCC products"

What would you recommend for a very basic no frills system that IS compatible?
The Bachmann EZ command - extremely no frills but it works reliably and is compatible with NMRA DCC products with no problem. It is what the Hornby should have been - basic and reliable!

What would you recommend to someone who wants a real DCC system for around 100? my recommendations in order of preference: The NCE PowerCab, The Digitrax Zephyr and either the LokMaus by Roc0 or the Compact by Lenz come to mind.

My comment re the Hornby DCC - Sadly (I wish it wasn't the case) if it was my business I'd not sell it at all no matter what the brand pressure / customer requests are. Same with the Elite until its proven and warranted by the NMRA as Mr Kohler states it will be (its not yet able to pass from my own still incomplete evaluation).

I would 100% avoid all Hornby decoders if possible.

For the sake of customers, If its a price issue, then I think it better to consider base level as a promotional thing and sell the basic but reliable bachmann entry level decoder at a lower margin to keep the price attractive rather than risk the high return rate of the Hornby decoders with their attendant problems

Feel free to email me directy if you have other questios.

Regards

Richard Johnson
DCCconcepts

By all means look at the suggestions Richard has made and then look at the Elite.

Hornby Digital or DCC or whatever your take is on this already has a sizable and ever expanding customer base in the UK with Hornby sales support.

Not everybody is a Mr DCC and there are considerations beyond that of a "a perfect system for Mr DCC types" that UK buyers consider.

Whilst the products mentioned by Richard do have sales support their customer support would be truely overwhelmed if Hornby customers started on mass to buy these products. Can you imagine how Digitrax and NCE and others in the UK would react to the type of questions posed by Hornby customers in their thousands? They would not be able to cope. Warley MRC has first hand experience of Digitrax sales support and we are not overimpressed with little interest in issues shown. When the system shorted at random we could not work out what the codes meant and Digitrax were not that helpful. We were not sure if there was a console failure or not and Digitrax were unwilling to look at the equipment.

In short Digitrax can be overcomplex for the beginner as can some of the other consoles mentioned by Richard.

And Digitrax and NCE and other do have returns and failures. It is just that you hear more about Hornby product failures in the last few months because put simply they have sold more!

And Hornby do have a dedicated Hornby DCC forum unlike the other manufacturers so again there is much greater visibility for Hornby product issues and customer education. This honest and open approach taken by Hornby has been used by the Hornby knockers who all too readily quote from selected pieces of what they read without having first hand experience.

Very few railway modellers in the UK will have the benefit of Richard's DCC classes which I am absolutely certain are superb! Doesn't this prove the point though? Why do you need to go to DCC classes before you can understand DCC?

Simple products are required in the UK for the masses and Hornby do deliver on this.

Happy modelling
Gary

Hello Gary

Firstly, I was replying very specifically to Sid, to a specific question: Did you miss the fact my post started out by saying so?

You Said:
Not everybody is a Mr DCC and there are considerations beyond that of a "a perfect system for Mr DCC types" that UK buyers consider.

REJ:
Yes I agree: Nor am I - I'm first and foremost a modeller who understands it from both sides.

By the way - you love adding labels to people. I will say it one more time... you do not know me and you are not qualified to do so. Actually, from your comments, you don't know the UK buyer/modeller too well either.

DCC can be simple: That is why I frame my responses as I do, so any modeller on any level can understand.

Except you, obviously. Why do you decry knowledge and use such phrases. I comment on the products, you seem to delight in having a go at the people... My dear mum has an expression for those who bluster. "You protest too much for an honest man"

You Said:
Whilst the products mentioned by Richard do have sales support their customer support would be truely overwhelmed if Hornby customers started on mass to buy these products.

REJ: Bollocks Gary, you do talk some rubbish. For a start products like the PowerCab are easier to understand than any other product I've seen, and I routinely Sell powercab and Digitrax Zephyr to novices and more informed modellers alike. Irrespective of age, they all "get it" in minutes and these products at least don't have the problems of the Hornby products - and can wither control a small layout or a larger one.

You Said:
Can you imagine how Digitrax and NCE and others in the UK would react to the type of questions posed by Hornby customers in their thousands? They would not be able to cope.

REJ: I'm sure the several very intelligent and helpful UK resellers I know would be fascinated by that comment - as would Those of NCE, who give exemplary service. Then again they have the time, as they aren't tied up making excuses for product that fails routinely and is not compatible as they claim it is.

You Said:
Warley MRC has first hand experience of Digitrax sales support and we are not overimpressed with little interest in issues shown. When the system shorted at random we could not work out what the codes meant.

REJ:
Controller don't short routinely, layouts and loco's do when they aren't up to scratch. Warley MRC are not a good refrence for DCC or layout wiring obviously. The codes are all in the digitrax manual, in English.... do I need t osay more? Perhaps if you'd tried asking any of the many excellent modellers who routinely exhibit using it / very happy with their digitrax systems they may have read it to you.

You Said:
...and Digitrax were not that helpful. We were not sure if there was a console failure or not and Digitrax were unwilling

REJ:
Gary, if I saw the apporach you give to issues as a custmer service person I really don't think I'd be all that helpful either to tell you the truth.

And Hornby are helpful? How is insisiting their product is something it isn't helpful?

You Said:
Look at the equipment. In short Digitrax can be overcomplex for the beginner as can some of the other consoles mentioned by Richard.

REJ:
You are simply wrong... and choose to selectively quote anyway. Yes, the full digitrax system is complex but nobody mentioned that at all...

Firstly I said that the entry level unit is Bachmann EZ command. Secondly level the Powercab or the Zephyr. There's nothing difficult about an NCE PowerCab or DIgitrax Zephyr, as long as you can actually read basic english. I recently gave this a test with an NCE powercab... asking both an 80 year old modeller and a 10 year old boy to set it up and run a train. Both managed it within a few minutes.

YouSaid:
And Digitrax and NCE and other do have returns and failures. It is just that you hear more about Hornby product failures in the last few months because put simply they have sold more!

REJ:
Are you even half way serious! Of course thay have failures, so does every brand in every type of product. As to Hornby selling more, you can't be serious: Hornby isn't a major DCC player even in the UK market. (actually htey aren't a DCC brand at all yet - their product isn't really DCC)

You Said:
And Hornby do have a dedicated Hornby DCC forum unlike the other manufacturers so again there is much greater visibility for Hornby product issues and customer education. This honest and open approach taken by Hornby has been used by the Hornby knockers who all too readily quote from selected pieces of what they read without having first hand experience.

REJ:
Digitrax forum: Over 5,000 members last time I looked.
NCE forum: Over 2,000
ESU forum:
Lenz Forum:

Hornby how many?

ONLY HORNBY insist on running it themselves and editing out inconvenient comments though - all the others are led by non-company poeople who are impartial, and well supported by the brands directly ONLY when a from the horses mouth comment is warranted.

You Said:
Very few railway modellers in the UK will have the benefit of Richard's DCC classes which I am absolutely certain are superb! Doesn't this prove the point though? Why do you need to go to DCC classes before you can understand DCC?

REJ:
Actually those who ask for them most are novices.

They'd like to learn how to open uip a loco and add a chip, what the wire colours mean o they can check and reverse the incorrect hornby and other brand wiring so their loco's run the right way, how they can wire the layout properly so it will run well as doing it hornbys way isn't working, etc etc.

They'd like to know how to tune a loco so it runs as good as it possinbly can, and they'd like to know "the next step" once they've played for a while - with the FACTS not brand created half truths or incomplete reseller data to go by.

Nothing hard really, just the truth, told in simple words for most of it. I actually do far less advanced formal teaching stuff than you might imagine - that is mostly handled with quite different monthly workshops which I freely invite anybody to attend, and mostly do at the clubs.

You Said:
Simple products are required in the UK for the masses and Hornby do deliver on this.

REJ:
You insult UK modellers Gary. That is nonsense.

Richard
DCCconcepts

Someone needs to get a fire hose on these boys!

60134

The telephone number for the Samaritans is 08457 90 90 90.

Gary i think defending the indefencable is damaging your reputaion. I suggest you quit now while you still have some left.
I have personally ordered products from richard and have found him most helpfull and knowlagable.

I think you are insulting brittish modellers by suggesting they can be palmed off with a product that isnt what is says on the box.

I would also like to remind you that Warley MRC is not the be all and end all of model railways. i found that really rather patronising. i find the same atitide at my own club sometimes. normally shortly before i walk out the door.

I would suggest that this thread be cut back to Doug's request for a response from Hornby.
this thread is getting out of hand but i think it servs a very real purpous and i dont want to see it removed.

Happy modelling

Peter

QUOTE I feel that Richard is setting the scene in plain English and is certainly not trying to be controversial

That depends on your point of view.

An independent thinker (wifey) had a look at what Mr Kohler actually said in his article and then had a look at what Mr Kohler was "quoted" as saying in the follow up replies.

There are also allegations that Hornby have blamed other brands for the alledged "problems unique to Hornby".

Have they? Hornby have said that their consoles are designed to meet CE EMC standards. That is all they have said.

The "DCC experts respond" article is a deliberate attempt to create controversy by putting words into Hornby's mouth.

The lawyers would have a field day with this interpretation of "plain English"

If Bachmann had been the target of such "plain English" and not Hornby then Bachmann to be blunt would have gone absolutely bezerk!

The NMRA standard is not just about the signal. It is also about how space is reserved for the messages sent and received. Hornby have adopted the NMRA space reservations as their consoles do control the components of other brands. Is anybody here going to deny that they don't? It is simply bonkers to say that Hornby is not DCC but of course there are folk who would be happy for us to believe that.

Happy modelling
Gary

QUOTE (Gary @ 23 Jul 2007, 16:40) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There are also allegations that Hornby have blamed other brands for the alledged "problems unique to Hornby".

Have they? Hornby have said that their consoles are designed to meet CE EMC standards. That is all they have said.

The "DCC experts respond" article is a deliberate attempt to create controversy by putting words into Hornby's mouth.

The lawyers would have a field day with this interpretation of "plain English"

Gary

I have watched this thread with interest and would advise you to quit while you are ahead - you are clearly out of your depth here and have no knowledge of what happened behind the scenes when the Select first appeared. I have, and I would stand by everything Richard has said so far as he and I were part of a small group who tried to advise Hornby on getting it right. We even sold Hornby decoders from another manufacturer so that they could verify what we were telling them was right and so that they could find solutions to the problems being experienced.

I think this thread has run its course and to stop Gary digging an even deeper hole for himself it might be politic to stop it here.

Regards

John R
Bromsgrove Models

I am closing this topic as a number of people, including myself are of the opinion that the arguments are going nowhere, getting boring and could spark legal problems. At the end of the day, most argument have been presented. You are not going to convince any one reading that you are any better by just repeating yourselves.

Please note:

• There is no point in rehashing old arguments. The more you say the same thing doesn't drive home the message. If it doesn't get through, present it in a different way.
• Please don't take another posters post and rip it apart paragraph by paragraph. Doing this does not make interesting reading for other looking on.
• Personal attacks are not allowed. It is too easy to step over any acceptable boundary here. Please be very careful.
• If you have a personal gripe with another member, take it off forum and fight it out using email.
• Please do not re-start this topic until further developments on the subject matter have been made and that arguments have been thought through a little more.

If anyone objects to anything said in this thread for legal reasons, please let me know so I can edit it if required.