[DriverSam]

Is it true that Hornby are to release a new HST tooling?
Oh dear.
The words 'Hornby' and 'HST' just mean 'absolute cock-up' to me. Crap power cars with ficticious/missing/poor fitting detail, mis-matched coaches and livery mistakes galore.
Lets hope they do a better job this time (that won't be difficult).
Maybe if they show some real interest they could actually do some research on livery details and get them right too. Will we even get a TGS that matches the rest of the coaches and has correct colour seats aswell? And no bloody buffers either!
Wow, dizzy heights........must calm down! Should I really expect a proper full length train with matching coaches in a correct livery AND decent power cars too? Yes I bloody well should, it's 2008 not 1976!

On past performance I would have prefered another manufacturer but good luck to Hornby though if they are going to do it. It's way overdue that somebody sold a decent model of this famous icon.
Time to put the old timmy trainset version into room 101. It's a 'Hornby Railroad' toy but sold at a premium and that ain't right folks.
Bring on the choice of something better.

 

[pedromorgan]

I think you are being pretty unfair there.

The recent diesels have been nothing less than exceptional. the class 50 and the 60 are simply superb. (i speak from personal experience but i trust the 31 and the 56 are to the same standard but they dont apeal to me)

The Mk3 coaches i agree have been blighted buy incorrect livery but apart from that there is nothing wrong with them.

"Maybe if they show some real interest they could actually do some research on livery details and get them right too. Will we even get a TGS that matches the rest of the coaches and has correct colour seats aswell? And no bloody buffers either!"

The TGS was brought in from the old hornby range because it was a coach that wasnt in the Hornby range. it was a "something is better than nothing" approach and it should be applauded. I'm afraid i think people who cant cut off buffers should be placed in a padded room for the good of humanity.

The only other manufacturer that i think would tackle this one is Bachmann. i would much rather have an HST to the standards of the class 50 that one to the standards of the Bachmann Deltic.

"Time to put the old timmy trainset version into room 101. It's a 'Hornby Railroad' toy but sold at a premium and that ain't right folks." finally something we agree on!

Peter

P.S. i dont have alot of patients for people who write these attacks on manufacturers behind the cloak of anonynimity.

 

[34C]

Hornby have said quite explicitly that they are producing the new HST power cars to the same standard as their recent diesel releases, and are making provision in the tooling to cover the significant variations seen during the types long and continuing service. With five generally well received models already produced there should be strong confidence in a decent job appearing.

But I was disappointed that the mk3's were not mentioned. Fingers crossed that Hornby will realise that trailers of a quality to match their Pullman cars would be of interest to people who want a really high grade model. Tooling capacity is not unlimited as we all know, and maybe Hornby have this on their to-do list. It is not unreasonable to expect lighting and a well arranged close coupling mechanism (particularly important on vehicles the length of Mk3's) in coaches to match the finish of what will be the very good power cars.

 

[Dan Hamblin]

I think that the Mk 3 models that Hornby already have the tooling for need only a bit of sprucing up to make them comparable with more recent passenger stock releases. Perhaps re-tooling the bogies to incorporate the close coupling mechanism and NEM coupler sockets, paint the interior seating etc. Small changes that just bring them up to current standards.

Regards,

Dan

 

[pedromorgan]

it would also be nice if we had a couple more types. the different window variations hat are not currently offered buy hornby and the already mentioned TGS.

Its funny but hornby have ended up with a shedload of Mk3 tooling.

Origional hornby with the clear strips along the sides
New scale length hornby
Lima scale length
Jouef

Any more anyone can think of?

Peter

 

[Ravenser]

One of the worrying features of 4mm D+E in recentyears , especially where the internet is concerned, is the way new high spec models have been attacked. It has sometimes seemed as if the more the manufacturers offer improved and upgraded models , the more abuse and vitriol they have recieved over those improved models , which seems perverse.

Hornby's current HST power cars date from 1979. When they were tooled James Callaghan was Prime Minister, half the country was on strike, inflation was north of 15% and rising, it was widely suggested the country had no future and people talked about the vBritish disease. On the railways they were building class 56s and and unfitted coal wagons (MDO) as the future of energy was to be about burning more coal. Different world....

I don't think we can sensibly criticise a future model on the basis of faults in a model that's nearly 30 years old. If you think the current Hornby HST is unsatisfactory, what more can you expect from Hornby than the announcement of a state of the art model with tooling adapted to cover all detail varients, and a modern sophisticated mechanism ? A mechanism which will shift a scale length trains - something the old pancake motored HSTs would not.

So why attack Hornby for announcing a major upgrade to their model? Why rubbish a model that hasn't appeared yet? Especially as all their 21st century tooling diesel models are excellent , as several other posters have pointed out

When Hornby bought the Lima tooling there were calls from many modellers on the internet to reissue the better Lima items - including the TGS. They did - so posters on the internet promptly attacked them for rereleasing Lima models.... They can't win, can they?

In all seriousness, I don't see that this kind of anti-manufacturer Punch & Judy stuff helps anyone. If it has any effect , it is a negative one - by reducing sales of new improved models, and tending to discourage manufacturers from producing more of them for certain sectors.

 

[darobi]

These are train packs not sets I seem to recall. I only hope they do a coach pack as well (maybe 2) to get a full length set together quickly. Over the years they have varied in length from 7 coaches upto 10. Rail express did an article a couple of years ago showing different formations I'll have to dig it out and start making plans. I didn't buy the old MML set due to the colour and old power cars. I'll be getting the BR blue/yellow and maybe the swallow once they appear. Just make the coaches a little better, nem pockets etc and I'll be happy. Lighting would be a big plus for me as well.

 

[7113]

So DriverSam appears once again to stir the HST pot.

Why be so negative, Hornby haven't even released it and you are already pulling it apart.

A quick look earlier at your profile shows that the only topics that you have started are slagging off Hornby HST's. I don't find that sort of record inspiring and I feel sure others would agree.

Regards

 

[rb277170]

QUOTE Hornby's current HST power cars date from 1979. When they were tooled James Callaghan was Prime Minister, half the country was on strike, inflation was north of 15% and rising, it was widely suggested the country had no future and people talked about the vBritish disease.

Just a small correction. While James Callaghan may have had the winter of discobntent in 1978/79, we actually had HST from Hornby in 1977. This is the date that the power cars in last years range date from. I know, I got one for Christmas 1977 which promptly expired on boxing day . I went back to Argyle Models from where the set had been purchased and they were going through a whole that had been returned and searching their unsold stock for usable powercars!

I am looking forward to the next generation. Only downside I can see is the price!

Russell

 

[darobi]

QUOTE (rb277170 @ 18 Jan 2008, 17:19) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I am looking forward to the next generation. Only downside I can see is the price!

Russell

I think it's just the power and dummy car so I would assume around £75 for the pair from the box shifters. maybe even less.

 

[Jennings]

Um ... Think some of you may be in for a shock ... Rails have the new HST packs priced at £106 (Hate to guess what the RRP is on them).

 

[darobi]

That's a bit much. rails are doing the 60's at £67.50. I may wait to see if they due a train set then.

 

[paulrelf]

They are heading towards expensive, but if the detail is anything like the Class 60 or 56, and let's face it, they are getting very good at this, it will be very well worth it. Also the fact that this is a loco and a half - the motored power car, and the dummy, both with the high levels of detail, lighting and DCC bits promised. It is bound to take a while for livery variations and coach standards to catch up, but having now invested in the power cars, I'd suggest Hornby will keep improving, in response to our demand. It seems clear they intend to play catch up for D&E modellers in the next 3-4 years, passenger and freight. I never thought we'd get a *** packet Mk3 sleeper, but thankfully it was slipped in last year as a non-catalogue item.

Also, I'm quite pleased the railroad HST will be the lima tooling, and an early release - the old Hornby power cars it would seem are relegated to the history books. Might be good for re-motoring my Lima power cars whilst waiting for the new versions to be produced in the liveries I run - I'm guessing the *** packet TGS is no mistake (black roof please!!), and if it sells may very well herald a complete HST in that livery.

There's always a risk of livery errors, and colour shades and application of vinyls on the real railway is often not perfection, but once we see items listed for production, early constructive discussion will highlight any potential issues and enable the manufacturers to bear that in mind when approving samples. This is happening all the time with steam.

 

[neil_s_wood]

I think that if the model is up to the recent Hornby Diesel standard it would be worth the quoted amount. The spec's say it has a metal chassis, centrally mounted motor (so both bogies driven hopefully) and directional lighting. Sounds good to me. I am happy to pay more money for better models.

By the way, when I read the first post yesterday I seriously considered deleting it. However I thought it might be worth leaving it to see how it developed. I am pleased to see that appropriate responses have been made. There's no reason to knock Hornby when they have produced a new model to improved spec's. This is a welcome model and I for one will certainly be buying one.

I still have my old one which I got in the late seventies too although it hasn't been out it's box for decades.

 

[JRW]

I am really looking forward to the new HST Power Cars.

Details from the 2008 Hornby Catalogue show that they will be available in drive/dummy packs and will benefit from the latest in design and production techniques with detail features both inside and outside the model being reproduced to the finest degree. The power in the drive unit will be supplied by a centrally mounted five pole skew wound motor connected to both bogies for maximum tractive effort. Both units will have lights which will be illuminated in the direction of travel in analogue control, and will be able to be operated independently in digital control.

The Intercity, Intercity Executive, GNER and Virgin Trains versions are apparently due in the second quarter and the Grand Central Trains in the third quarter.

The RRP for a pack containing one drive and one dummy unit is £137.75 DCC ready, and £152.75 DCC fitted

 

[spongebob]

If you think you can do a better job then why not scratchbuild one?
Talk about stuck record. 4 posts in two years and all the same thing.
Perhaps you could offer your vast HST knowledge to hornby in some consultation capacity, perhaps they'll politely tell you where to go.

OK troll feeding time over chaps.
Be sure to let us know your thoughts when they release it or you next get out on day release, whichever comes first.

 

[DriverSam]

Some great replies, such passion!
Here are a few points in answer to the people who still think its fine to pay scale model prices for toy trains.
Everybody has their favourite train. The HST just brings me loads of great memories of travels and I know it well.
Aside from that, because of its status in the History of our railways it deserves far better than the current offering on the shelves which has been cobbled together from a parts bin.
The real train is very impressive. The current model is let down in several ways.

As for the suggestion that I should offer my 'vast knowledge' to Hornby on the subject of the HST, Hornby are the ones with vast experience of making model trains. Being a major player in their field for a great many years, they should have the resources to research their subject matter a lot better than they do sometimes. Some of their models just smack of rushed shoddiness. Just look at the amount of mistakes that have been made with liveries on their ex-Lima releases. The Yeoman class 59 #59005 is even the wrong body tooling!
How hard can it be to simply check some pictures before you go into prodution?

Granted the scale length Mk3 coaches surpass any previous efforts. But the TGS doesn''t match the rest of the coaches (the tooling, seating colours and some continuity errors with livery) and those Power Cars are way past it.
Yes it's easy to use a craft knife to cut bits of models. And with some extra skill, add detail and do a bit of respraying. But why should anybody have to do this after just spending X amount of money on their model?
If I wanted a toy train I would have gone to Mothercare or the Early Learning Centre.
But I have just paid for a scale model.
Obviously there is a market for both. Finally Hornby have recognised this and created their 'Railroad' range where a lot of their older trains can still be sold while releasing highly detailed equivalent items in their other range. For this reason anybody who has spent the near £60 RRP on the Hornby class 37 or 47 (both very basic and very old now) has been blatently ripped off.
The current Hornby HST is part scale model, part toy and part some other manufacturers old tooling. The real HST by design is supposed to be a formation of matching stock! The current model formation is a mess.
I would say that there is nothing wrong with having the HST in the Hornby 'Railroad' range with the old shortened Mk3 coaches. They would be better for negotiating the sharper radius curves of a Train Set. However the later scale length Mk3 coaches need a matching TGS and Power Cars of equal quality. Only then will the train truely be a scale model of matching stock which the HST is supposed to be in the first place.

Agreed, some of Hornby's latest toolings are an absolute marvel with real attention to detail and have set standards for others to follow. Their class 31,50,60 and latest class 56 diesel locos look fantastic and would take pride in anyone's fleet of models. As would the latest Steam locos. My model of 'Tangmere' with its rake of Pullman stock looks fantastic. A steam special on a modern era layout.
Considering the level of detail and technology, these models compare very favourably in price to other very basic older models in the range (the afore mentioned class 37 and 47 rogues).
It almost seems like there are 2 different companies working within Hornby; one that cares and one that doesn't.

When you have a particular favourite and when its such a famous icon that has seen 30 years service and still going strong in the front line then perhaps you can forgive flying the flag for it.
The HST really deserves a good model after all these years and I hope Hornby do a good job with it and finally give us a high quality formation of matching stock as well as a separate basic budget example for younger enthusiasts.
Hopefully that will keep us all happy for some years to come!

Look forward to the next barrage of comments!
All the best.

 

[5696Arethusa]

Wow! a good defence of the initial post and answers to the questions raised.
Firstly let us take a moment to remember what Hornby is, a business. They exist for one reason and one reason only that being to make money. They choose to make money by designing and selling model railways.

If a company can make money by selling a product at a given amount of money then there is nothing wrong with them in doing just that so long as doing so doesn't break any laws

OK so the HST in last years catalogue been in production almost as long as the real one has been in service and has undergone less upgrading than the real one, but it must have been making a good enough return for Hornby to have kept it in production. A product is only worth as much as a customer is willing to pay for it.

Now is the the right time for Hornby to tool up a latest spec. version. The brightly coloured "fast" looking trainset has always been a mainstay of Hornbys business and with the release of the Pendalino last year in a "trainset" specification this has led to trainset buyers having a newer "fast" train to buy. So with what has to have been the larger market for HST sales being erroded by a product from within now is the perfect time tool up the super detail HST for the scale modeller.

As for the issues with the Limby releases I find it hard to knock Hornby for wanting to get a return on their investment after all if you don't like a product you don't buy it, enough other people must have. I only have the GWR Railcar which I'm very happy with as I've wanted one since the early '80s and never got around to getting while Lima were around, and am glad because I have one with a better motor bogie, livery application and for a lot less than the Lima ones were selling for second hand.
Hornby will have done market reaserch to see what the market will stand in terms of price on these Limby releases and priced them accordingly.

I have spent many happy hours detailing older locos and stock from all manufacturers and now have a fleet which is about half detailed by me, half "out of the box" I think the clue is in the name of our hoby Railway modelling

 

[rb277170]

Only points here are that Hornby did seem to rush the LIMBY product out to make a fast buck. And this seemed to be there main concern rather than stopping to see if the goods were fit for purpose. Yes there are detail and livery errors on some of the releases which frankly are disappointing (problems with the 59, wrong colour roof on SPT156 the famous howler of full yellow ends on 121) however the more significant issue surrounded the pulling power of these models. Hornby just rushed them out and didn't seem to care. Yes its corrected now but only because of the protests. A good company might actually test their product first. It is conceivable that people might like to use them to pull trains.

As to the new HST I'm looking forward to it. But the price probably means I'll only be replacing one set of power cars instead of the 4 I currently have.

Russell

 

[7113]

QUOTE (5696Arethusa @ 21 Jan 2008, 18:16) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>let us take a moment to remember what Hornby is, a business. They exist for one reason and one reason only that being to make money. They choose to make money by designing and selling model railways.

Andii - I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head, first and foremost any business is out there for that one reason only.

Regards