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QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 26 Dec 2006, 22:09) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Or do we have a double standard for UK and Continental manufacturers?
Yes - it's called quality !
Yes - it's called quality !
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·QUOTE (Graham Plowman @ 24 Nov 2006, 01:04) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>DriverSam,
I have a set of Lima MKIII's which correctly have blue seats in second class and orange in first, so I'm not quite sure where your information about incorrect seating colours comes from unless blue and orange is incorrect ?
The Lima Mk3 HST coaches in BR Blue and Grey had correct colour seating for the TGS - blue (2+2),
Buffet Car (orange 2+1)
and First Open (orange 2+1).
However the Second Class coaches should have had blue (2+2) seats but Lima never did this correctly and simlply put orange First Class seats in their second class coaches.
Incidently the seating arrangement in the TGS would not be the same as the open second coaches.
The TGS coach featured several seats in rows facing the same direction. Not all the seats in this coach were grouped in fours.
A different mould would have been required for the Second Class open coaches so Lima saved money by not bothering. This is why their Second Class coaches have the incorrect orange First Class seats.
They should have at least made their wrong seats in blue to help disguise the fact.
Hornby's effort is slighltly better with all the correct seating arrangements. Its just that they didn't bother with the different colours and chose to blue seats for all of the coaches.
Their ex-Lima TGS is a bizarre story though!
Lima actually made their coach with correct blue seats.
Now that Hornby have got this tooling they have very strangly settled for white seats which is totally wrong!! I really don't know why they have done this, it's so odd especially as it is something which is so easy to have got right!
I have a set of Lima MKIII's which correctly have blue seats in second class and orange in first, so I'm not quite sure where your information about incorrect seating colours comes from unless blue and orange is incorrect ?
The Lima Mk3 HST coaches in BR Blue and Grey had correct colour seating for the TGS - blue (2+2),
Buffet Car (orange 2+1)
and First Open (orange 2+1).
However the Second Class coaches should have had blue (2+2) seats but Lima never did this correctly and simlply put orange First Class seats in their second class coaches.
Incidently the seating arrangement in the TGS would not be the same as the open second coaches.
The TGS coach featured several seats in rows facing the same direction. Not all the seats in this coach were grouped in fours.
A different mould would have been required for the Second Class open coaches so Lima saved money by not bothering. This is why their Second Class coaches have the incorrect orange First Class seats.
They should have at least made their wrong seats in blue to help disguise the fact.
Hornby's effort is slighltly better with all the correct seating arrangements. Its just that they didn't bother with the different colours and chose to blue seats for all of the coaches.
Their ex-Lima TGS is a bizarre story though!
Lima actually made their coach with correct blue seats.
Now that Hornby have got this tooling they have very strangly settled for white seats which is totally wrong!! I really don't know why they have done this, it's so odd especially as it is something which is so easy to have got right!
My class 50 will haul 15 coaches without pulling a sweat. Cost half the price of stuff from near bankrupt Euro manufacturers and does so without traction tyres.
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Do you not remember the hue and cry when the 50 came out with tt's in its first batch?
The North Americans can get by without them. Their haulage capacity is second to none.
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Yep. I'll stick with the term dinosaurs.
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Do you not remember the hue and cry when the 50 came out with tt's in its first batch?
The North Americans can get by without them. Their haulage capacity is second to none.
Yep. I'll stick with the term dinosaurs.
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I can't agree with the term dinosaur. It sounds like the same argument concerning 3 rail AC. To me it's just a differnet approach. I just know that all my locomotives can pull at least 1o passenger cars which for me is plenty. On the other hand for those that model US, 40-50 cars is not unheard of so I guess it's all about the market.
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QUOTE Do you not remember the hue and cry when the 50 came out with tt's in its first batch? I honestly have to admit that went completely by me.
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QUOTE My class 50 will haul 15 coaches without pulling a sweat. Cost half the price of stuff from near bankrupt Euro manufacturers and does so without traction tyres.
I'm glad they were able to make a loco that could do that. Maybe they might consider extending this ability to other models in their range?
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The reason it cost half the price is because it doesn't have sound or any other features normal with Continental outline. Near Bankrupt, maybe they should employ slave labour in sweat shops like some other manufacturers in order to maximise their profits rather than providing jobs for their fellow countrymen.
At the end of the day I don't care whether it has them or not a long as the loco functions efficently, can pull a load and doesn't derail frequently. Which is why I prefer German and US outline.
If you want to use the term dinosaur it would make sense to apply it to basic locos like those sold as UK outline rather than the far more technologically advanced ones sold in the German and US market. Remember UK outline has just discovered DCC in the last year or so and has just this month introduced it's first DCC sound loco albeit with a German sound decoder. I wonder why they didn't use a British one?
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So if you want to apply the term dinosaur you probably want to start looking a bit closer to home.
This is al a bit like listening to a Rover owner calling a BMW a dinosaur. So if a beemers a dinosaur I'm more than happy with a dinosaur.
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QUOTE It sounds like the same argument concerning 3 rail AC
It is the same arguement, anything German is bad, unfortunately.
QUOTE My class 50 will haul 15 coaches without pulling a sweat. Cost half the price of stuff from near bankrupt Euro manufacturers and does so without traction tyres.
I'm glad they were able to make a loco that could do that. Maybe they might consider extending this ability to other models in their range?
The reason it cost half the price is because it doesn't have sound or any other features normal with Continental outline. Near Bankrupt, maybe they should employ slave labour in sweat shops like some other manufacturers in order to maximise their profits rather than providing jobs for their fellow countrymen.
At the end of the day I don't care whether it has them or not a long as the loco functions efficently, can pull a load and doesn't derail frequently. Which is why I prefer German and US outline.
If you want to use the term dinosaur it would make sense to apply it to basic locos like those sold as UK outline rather than the far more technologically advanced ones sold in the German and US market. Remember UK outline has just discovered DCC in the last year or so and has just this month introduced it's first DCC sound loco albeit with a German sound decoder. I wonder why they didn't use a British one?
This is al a bit like listening to a Rover owner calling a BMW a dinosaur. So if a beemers a dinosaur I'm more than happy with a dinosaur.
QUOTE It sounds like the same argument concerning 3 rail AC
It is the same arguement, anything German is bad, unfortunately.
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QUOTE (ozwarrior @ 29 Dec 2006, 01:37) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>My class 50 will haul 15 coaches without pulling a sweat. Cost half the price of stuff from near bankrupt Euro manufacturers and does so without traction tyres.
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Do you not remember the hue and cry when the 50 came out with tt's in its first batch?
The North Americans can get by without them. Their haulage capacity is second to none.
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Yep. I'll stick with the term dinosaurs.
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Only 15 ! - most FLM/Roco/Trix locos around that size pull 20 +
If you want an 8-wheel diesel/OHE outline without traction tyres which will pull 15 coaches & retail for £35/45 then look nor further than the Piko/Roco Hobby/Playtime range.
Sure, the North Americans get by without them - just look at the size of the locos. Size = weight, so they have no need.
Don't forget that a certain "factory" in Margate has had a few financial issues in the past.
As for the China/home manufactureing political debate I'll leave that for you to ponder when your job has been moved to China.
I see we have no comment about the flangeless wheels on current production locos (I remember when most UK manufactured locos had flangless cetre drivers when all european ones had flanges !)
Just name one innovation or improvement where the UK has been ahead of the european mainland - if you can.
Other than that I echo Neils comments.
Do you not remember the hue and cry when the 50 came out with tt's in its first batch?
The North Americans can get by without them. Their haulage capacity is second to none.
Yep. I'll stick with the term dinosaurs.
Only 15 ! - most FLM/Roco/Trix locos around that size pull 20 +
If you want an 8-wheel diesel/OHE outline without traction tyres which will pull 15 coaches & retail for £35/45 then look nor further than the Piko/Roco Hobby/Playtime range.
Sure, the North Americans get by without them - just look at the size of the locos. Size = weight, so they have no need.
Don't forget that a certain "factory" in Margate has had a few financial issues in the past.
As for the China/home manufactureing political debate I'll leave that for you to ponder when your job has been moved to China.
I see we have no comment about the flangeless wheels on current production locos (I remember when most UK manufactured locos had flangless cetre drivers when all european ones had flanges !)
Just name one innovation or improvement where the UK has been ahead of the european mainland - if you can.
Other than that I echo Neils comments.
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Spice Girls?
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QUOTE My class 50 will haul 15 coaches without pulling a sweat
Just one other thing occurred to me on the way home from work. I have a Hornby Class 50 and at some point I will stick a decoder into it and I will check if it really does pull 15 coaches without a sweat. You can be assured I will report back with my findings!
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QUOTE Spice Girls?
I think Brian was referring to model rail. Although to be fair how up on German girl groups are you?
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I'm not aware of the existence of any.
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Theres some pretty stunning German girls out there. I'm sure they could come up with one thats better looking than ginger spice without too much trouble?
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Just one other thing occurred to me on the way home from work. I have a Hornby Class 50 and at some point I will stick a decoder into it and I will check if it really does pull 15 coaches without a sweat. You can be assured I will report back with my findings!
QUOTE Spice Girls?
I think Brian was referring to model rail. Although to be fair how up on German girl groups are you?
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QUOTE Just name one innovation or improvement where the UK has been ahead of the european mainland - if you can.
Actually I can list one area where the UK still leads all others ... motorsports as an industry.
Actually I can list one area where the UK still leads all others ... motorsports as an industry.
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QUOTE (Dennis David @ 29 Dec 2006, 17:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Actually I can list one area where the UK still leads all others ... motorsports as an industry.
We could probably get a few more onto that list like music, TV shows and comedy. Insurance and Whisky too. We're pretty good at weapons production and sales too. Wanna buy a used nuclear sub or two?
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We could probably get a few more onto that list like music, TV shows and comedy. Insurance and Whisky too. We're pretty good at weapons production and sales too. Wanna buy a used nuclear sub or two?
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nah, we got more bigger ones.
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The main point is that in model railroading the UK is behind Europe but they are saved by the beautiful outlines of their steam trains so why is everybody so gung ho on these ugly diesels?
Oh and you need to add a little flouride to your water supply.
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Oh and you need to add a little flouride to your water supply.
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8,102 Posts
QUOTE The main point is that in model railroading the UK is behind Europe but they are saved by the beautiful outlines of their steam trains so why is everybody so gung ho on these ugly diesels? That has always been one of the worlds most unsolved mysteries.
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I don't understand it?
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I guess we better get Hercule Poirot onto it. Oops he's European,
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sorry, better get Miss Marple then!
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QUOTE Oh and you need to add a little flouride to your water supply. Why do we need the flouride?
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QUOTE Oh and you need to add a little flouride to your water supply. Why do we need the flouride?
Gung ho diesels? British industry? Rover v BMW? Dinosaurs?...... Watson this is doubtless a three pipe problem......*
So, gung ho diesels, - people like modern UK diesels for a very good reason, for just about anybody under 50 there is no memory of main line steam - it vanished 40 years ago. This means that people tend to model their eras or later, it's what they saw as children. The same thing applies to the classic car industry, the car you want as a classic is what your parents had when you were a child, in my case Austin Cambridge, Hillman Minx etc. (note for people under 30 these were cars made by that strange thing called a British motor industry.)
British Industry - Yes it still exists, and in a lot of areas is among the world leaders, it's just they tend to be areas the average man in the street doesn't know or care about.
Rover v BMW? er I've got a Volvo - nuff said I think.
Dinosaurs - reptiles now extinct (for several million years). Can also be applied to a school of thought prevalent among certain UK modellers that British is best. Unfortunately it's not, and I say that as someone who proudly puts his nationality down as English (sorry Neil). The biggest problem is the blinkered opinion of that particular element of the hobby. Yes, the situation is much better than it was 25 years ago, in that we have very presentable models, that having been said I still remember Hornby proudly stating that they had produced a loco with fully flanged driving wheels!!
I think I'd better stop now before I tread on too many toes.
*attributed to Sherlock Holmes, who travelled Victorian Engalnd by train to solve worrying crimes.
Regards
John
So, gung ho diesels, - people like modern UK diesels for a very good reason, for just about anybody under 50 there is no memory of main line steam - it vanished 40 years ago. This means that people tend to model their eras or later, it's what they saw as children. The same thing applies to the classic car industry, the car you want as a classic is what your parents had when you were a child, in my case Austin Cambridge, Hillman Minx etc. (note for people under 30 these were cars made by that strange thing called a British motor industry.)
British Industry - Yes it still exists, and in a lot of areas is among the world leaders, it's just they tend to be areas the average man in the street doesn't know or care about.
Rover v BMW? er I've got a Volvo - nuff said I think.
Dinosaurs - reptiles now extinct (for several million years). Can also be applied to a school of thought prevalent among certain UK modellers that British is best. Unfortunately it's not, and I say that as someone who proudly puts his nationality down as English (sorry Neil). The biggest problem is the blinkered opinion of that particular element of the hobby. Yes, the situation is much better than it was 25 years ago, in that we have very presentable models, that having been said I still remember Hornby proudly stating that they had produced a loco with fully flanged driving wheels!!
I think I'd better stop now before I tread on too many toes.
*attributed to Sherlock Holmes, who travelled Victorian Engalnd by train to solve worrying crimes.
Regards
John
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>Oh and you need to add a little flouride to your water supply.
I'm pretty sure that became mandatory during the last couple of years. Now the government are debating (internally, I don't think they've asked the rest of us) adding iron to our flour.
David
I'm pretty sure that became mandatory during the last couple of years. Now the government are debating (internally, I don't think they've asked the rest of us) adding iron to our flour.
David
QUOTE (dwb @ 29 Dec 2006, 11:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm pretty sure that became mandatory during the last couple of years.
No, there was a bit of talk but no action.
No, there was a bit of talk but no action.
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People ask me if I like the UK. I tell them I vote with my feet ... I've visited a couple dozen times.
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QUOTE adding iron to our flour I'd draw the line with saltpeter.
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QUOTE adding iron to our flour I'd draw the line with saltpeter.
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QUOTE (dwb @ 29 Dec 2006, 22:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>>Oh and you need to add a little flouride to your water supply.
I'm pretty sure that became mandatory during the last couple of years. Now the government are debating (internally, I don't think they've asked the rest of us) adding iron to our flour.
David
I remember reading once that the Yanks were seriously contemplating adding asparin to the water supply at one point because of it's benefits.
QUOTE for just about anybody under 50 there is no memory of main line steam That is very true John but I'm 42 and I prefer the steam locos. I guess I'm the exception. I have to admit this is true I like the GNER 225 and the Scotrail and Network SouthEast trains because I used them frequently to get around.
I'm pretty sure that became mandatory during the last couple of years. Now the government are debating (internally, I don't think they've asked the rest of us) adding iron to our flour.
David
I remember reading once that the Yanks were seriously contemplating adding asparin to the water supply at one point because of it's benefits.
QUOTE for just about anybody under 50 there is no memory of main line steam That is very true John but I'm 42 and I prefer the steam locos. I guess I'm the exception. I have to admit this is true I like the GNER 225 and the Scotrail and Network SouthEast trains because I used them frequently to get around.
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8,102 Posts
QUOTE (dwb @ 29 Dec 2006, 22:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>>Oh and you need to add a little flouride to your water supply.
I'm pretty sure that became mandatory during the last couple of years. Now the government are debating (internally, I don't think they've asked the rest of us) adding iron to our flour.
David
I remember reading once that the Yanks were seriously contemplating adding asparin to the water supply at one point because of it's benefits.
QUOTE for just about anybody under 50 there is no memory of main line steam That is very true John but I'm 42 and I prefer the steam locos. I guess I'm the exception. I have to admit I do like the GNER 225 and the Scotrail and Network SouthEast trains because I used them frequently to get around.
I'm pretty sure that became mandatory during the last couple of years. Now the government are debating (internally, I don't think they've asked the rest of us) adding iron to our flour.
David
I remember reading once that the Yanks were seriously contemplating adding asparin to the water supply at one point because of it's benefits.
QUOTE for just about anybody under 50 there is no memory of main line steam That is very true John but I'm 42 and I prefer the steam locos. I guess I'm the exception. I have to admit I do like the GNER 225 and the Scotrail and Network SouthEast trains because I used them frequently to get around.
G
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·QUOTE (Dennis David @ 29 Dec 2006, 06:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The main point is that in model railroading the UK is behind Europe but they are saved by the beautiful outlines of their steam trains so why is everybody so gung ho on these ugly diesels?
It is one of the great ironies. Possibly the intrinsic beauty of so many UK steam designs has enabled the RTR makers to skimp on the quality and detail compared to the productions found in the US and mainland Europe? (Though I bet that models of good looking US designs like the N&W 'J' seen in this thread have always been pretty good.) Sad though I was when the Gresley and Peppercorn machines were scrapped, compensation in the form of Deltics (class 55) and then Brush type 4's (class 47) gives the lie to 'ugly diesels'. Ok, other region's diesels often were ugly, but then they were not starting from such a high aesthetic standard.
It is one of the great ironies. Possibly the intrinsic beauty of so many UK steam designs has enabled the RTR makers to skimp on the quality and detail compared to the productions found in the US and mainland Europe? (Though I bet that models of good looking US designs like the N&W 'J' seen in this thread have always been pretty good.) Sad though I was when the Gresley and Peppercorn machines were scrapped, compensation in the form of Deltics (class 55) and then Brush type 4's (class 47) gives the lie to 'ugly diesels'. Ok, other region's diesels often were ugly, but then they were not starting from such a high aesthetic standard.
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QUOTE Possibly the intrinsic beauty of so many UK steam designs has enabled the RTR makers to skimp on the quality and detail compared to the productions found in the US and mainland Europe? I thought the lack of competition was responsible. Until Bachmann came along Hornby's product had not changed in years. Even now their new product is reactive to whatever Bachmann introduce to the UK. In Europe and the US there are several manufacturers and this creates competition to raise the standards.
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