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You guys need to swap e-mail addresses and contact each other off of these pages or start a new topic.
The subject started was about HST models and has since side-tracked and gone somewhere completely un-related.
It was originally interesting but now its just turned into boring idle banter.
 

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QUOTE (Adam. G. @ 2 Jan 2007, 00:05) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You guys need to swap e-mail addresses and contact each other off of these pages or start a new topic.
The subject started was about HST models and has since side-tracked and gone somewhere completely un-related.
It was originally interesting but now its just turned into boring idle banter.


You will find this "side tracking" often happens on MRF & most other forums - better get used to it before you bother to register.

Maybe then, this is not really the place for you - you could always start your own forum or Yahoo Group.

If you want to see "idle banter" try another well known model railway forum !
 
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I get side-tracked frequently on Wikipedia! I go to look at one thing which then leads on to another and before I know it I am looking at something completely different and unrelated!
It is however interesting and certainly not 'boring'.
If we had to start a new topic every time on these pages to comment on something different to the original topic subject, then surely these pages would run into many thousands!
 

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QUOTE (Adam. G. @ 2 Jan 2007, 11:05) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You guys need to swap e-mail addresses and contact each other off of these pages or start a new topic.
The subject started was about HST models and has since side-tracked and gone somewhere completely un-related.
It was originally interesting but now its just turned into boring idle banter.

You need to register then we might care what you think. If you don't like social interaction then why bother with a forum?
 

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As the author of the 'Ever heard of a craft knife' comment, now being criticised for making the comment, it really surprises me that we have so many 'modellers' who are not prepared to do any modelling these days and expect manufacturers to do it for them perfectly. I can't honestly think of a better de-skilling process!

Loco hauled MKIIIs had buffers whereas those in HST units did not. From a manufacturers' commercial point of view at the time, it would have been cheaper to make one model with buffers than to make two different models. What would have been said if the model was produced without buffers at a time when the majority of these coaches probably were loco hauled ?

I would suggest that today, the best option would be to provide separate buffers to be fitted if required. Don't forget that it costs money to change moulds.

C'mon guys, get real. It really doesn't require much modelling skills to be able to remove buffers ones' self. If you can't do it and are not prepared to learn the skills to do it, then maybe you should question whether a the hobby of railway modelling really is for you.

Graham Plowman
 

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QUOTE (Graham Plowman @ 3 Jan 2007, 05:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>As the author of the 'Ever heard of a craft knife' comment, now being criticised for making the comment, it really surprises me that we have so many 'modellers' who are not prepared to do any modelling these days and expect manufacturers to do it for them perfectly. I can't honestly think of a better de-skilling process!
Graham Plowman

Surely this is approaching Heresy!!?

But, Graham, in all seriousness I think you have hit the nail on the head. The average modern modeller expects everything on a plate, even pre-built buildings are now available to a standard that people would not have dreamt of five years ago. Nowadays you don't need glue or paint: JUST MONEY AND LITTLE OR NO IMAGINATION. I have little or no choice in my chosen scale/era but to modify and frequently repaint models, it doesn't spoil my pleasure, if anything it enhances my enjoyment and certainly means that when I finally finish and exhibit the layout the stock won't look exactly the same as everybody elses!

Perhaps it's an EU directive that we can't use anything sharp or sticky in case we accidentally harm ourselves.

Regards

John
 
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It looks like this whole buffers issue has got out of hand and the original point missed.
Some of you are defending Hornby's Mk3 coach for having buffers because it leaves the modeller to choose weather to run it in HST or loco-hauled guise. This is fair enough.
The only liveries produced so far on Hornby's scale length Mk3 coaches which can be seen on both HST and loco-hauled trains to my knowledge are Virgin and BR Blue and Grey.
That leaves First Great Western, GNER, and Midland Mainline liveries only seen on HST Mk3 coaches.
The Mk3 TGS was built for HST sets only so unless you count anomolies such as specific conversions for certain duties these TGS coaches do not have buffers.
For this reason the ex-Lima Mk3 TGS coach is wrong and Hornby missed the oppourtunity to correct it. This ex-Lima coach actually has these buffers moulded into the underframe.
Hornby's own scale length coaches have detachable buffers, ie they can be removed and refitted.
The point is why do Hornby fit the removable buffers when they are not required for First Great Western, GNER and Midland Mainline and why didn't they correct the Lima mould while they had the chance?

Moving on to the rather persistant 'Ever heard of a craft knife' issue.

Personally I don't see any joy in correcting manufacturers silly mistakes. This is time which could be better spent in other areas.
However I find it incredible that somebody should be told to question their modelling skills and indeed their hobby because someone else finds it acceptable to take a craft knife to a brand new model and remove something which should have never been there in the first place!
I for one have several tools which I use in modelling including a scalpel and Stanley knife and have used these to convert all sorts of rolling stock into more unusual vehicles that are not available to buy.

In the past, making basic toy trains more realistic by taking a knife to them I can understand.
However it is now 2007 and much of these trains are aimed at more serious modellers. In the age of precision engineering, computer aided design, and with a wealth of history, experience and reference at manufacturers disposal, it's really not acceptable for obvious and silly errors to find there way onto detailed scale models.
Especially in the case of the HST - there have been thirty years worth of opportunity to get this one right!

If you are happy accepting manufacturers mistakes and taking a craft knife to your new model thats your choice. Just don't ask people who find this unacceptabe to question their modelling skills.
If you enjoy using knives so much maybe you should have been a knife thrower! (LOL)
 
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I beleive the UK also lead in Teenage pregnancies, Binge drinking, Yob culture and moaning about the weather.
 
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Sorry Adam. G, does the above reply come under 'idle boring banter' or 'completely unrelated'?!
 

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QUOTE (Ron @ 3 Jan 2007, 18:50) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you are happy accepting manufacturers mistakes and taking a craft knife to your new model thats your choice. Just don't ask people who find this unacceptabe to question their modelling skills.
If you enjoy using knives so much maybe you should have been a knife thrower! (LOL)


If you take the time to read the posts correctly you will see that that is definatly not the inference.
 

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QUOTE (Ron @ 4 Jan 2007, 04:50) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It looks like this whole buffers issue has got out of hand and the original point missed.....

Ron,

I don't disagree with you as to whether the Lima TGS should or shouldn't have buffers - you are right - it shouldn't.
I just can't get excited and join those individuals who seem to enjoy being on the 'manufacturer bashing bandwagon' when the specific problem being discussed in this thread is so easy to fix - this is a 'storm in a tea cup' issue.

Remember that Hornby stated that they were reintroducing Lima models with minor modifications. In this instance, they replaced bogies, did a bit of flush glazing and that was it. Removing buffers would involve the cost and time of modifying a mould which they evidently chose not to do.

When it comes to correcting manufacturer's mistakes like Bachmanns first release Warship with chassis manufacturing faults where it sat 1mm too low or the Bachmann Std 4 tank with chassis manufacturing faults where the loco was higher at the back than the front, then yes, I totally agree that we shouldn't be fixing manufacturers silly mistakes but removing 4 buffers really isn't in the same league as the major chassis cutting surgery necessary to fix the above Bachmann problems!

Graham Plowman
 

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QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 3 Jan 2007, 17:49) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Does that go for my razor sharp wit then !

Razor sharp what??


Regards

John
 
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Hi Graham,
I don't dispute that the TGS buffers are easy to cut off, but I will not defend Hornby for ignoring the opportunity to correct this error while they had the chance. For me, it's the fact that if this is such an easy error to fix then why didn't it get sorted at the factory in the first place.

Given the important significance of the HST in the history of our railways I think it deserves better treatment and a more accurate model.

Hornby's own toolings for the other HST Mk3 coaches are very good and the reintroduction of Lima's Power Cars this year will be welcome replacements for the crude old Hornby ones. But it just seems a shame to let the formation down on the quality of one coach (the TGS). Especially when you add the additional livery mistakes on the BR Blue and Grey version together with it's white seats.

After all, as somebody else said before, 30 years is a long time to wait for a decent model of Britain's most successful train.
It's about time somebody took it more seriously and done a proper job of it.
 

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Ron,

QUOTE I don't dispute that the TGS buffers are easy to cut off, but I will not defend Hornby for ignoring the opportunity to correct this error while they had the chance. For me, it's the fact that if this is such an easy error to fix then why didn't it get sorted at the factory in the first place.

Given the important significance of the HST in the history of our railways I think it deserves better treatment and a more accurate model.

Hornby's own toolings for the other HST Mk3 coaches are very good and the reintroduction of Lima's Power Cars this year will be welcome replacements for the crude old Hornby ones. But it just seems a shame to let the formation down on the quality of one coach (the TGS). Especially when you add the additional livery mistakes on the BR Blue and Grey version together with it's white seats.

After all, as somebody else said before, 30 years is a long time to wait for a decent model of Britain's most successful train.
It's about time somebody took it more seriously and done a proper job of it.

It comes down to commercial reasons and money - and I am not defending this.
Hornby wanted a 'quick fix' for the TGS because they didn't have their own. The Lima option was the quickest way to bring one to market.
It costs money to modify moulds to change anything. It also costs time which of course, is money. Don't forget, they did say that they were re-introducing Lima models with minimal modifications - so we're lucky they even flush glazed the TGS!

Personally, I would have preferred they did their own TGS to the same standard and consistency as their current MKIIIs.

I suspect that the Lima model is a stop-gap and we'll see something better in the future. Sadly, it is this 'toy trainset' mentality that you can just throw disparate vehicles together to make a train that really does a diservice to this hobby.

Graham Plowman
 

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There is only so much that can be done with moulds that are 20 years old.
The buffer shanks that are part of the lima chassis moulding would need drilling out and a new insert putting in. there would need to be 2 inserts. a plug and a buffer shank.
For a mould that is 20 years old is it really worth the hassle?

You always knew this was a bit of a bodge. it was always going to be a bodge as many of the lima re-releases are. but they are better than nothing. we should be gratefull for that.

I am defending hornby!-this is starting to get scary!

Peter
 

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QUOTE (pedromorgan @ 10 Jan 2007, 14:39) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>There is only so much that can be done with moulds that are 20 years old.
The buffer shanks that are part of the lima chassis moulding would need drilling out and a new insert putting in. there would need to be 2 inserts. a plug and a buffer shank.
For a mould that is 20 years old is it really worth the hassle?

You always knew this was a bit of a bodge. it was always going to be a bodge as many of the lima re-releases are. but they are better than nothing. we should be gratefull for that.

I am defending hornby!-this is starting to get scary!

Peter

I completely agree with you on this one Peter!!

Regards

John
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Hornby are to replace their basic and aged HST Power cars this year with the better ex-Lima one. This may disappoint some people who were hoping for a super detailed version but anything is better than we have now.
Hopefully another manufacturer will finally do the HST justice and produce a complete rake of accurate coaches and appropriately detailed Power Cars.
In the meantime I am hoping that Hornby will see the benefits of releasing their forthcoming ex-Lima Power Cars in twin packs as Lima did.
By doing limited runs of each livery so far carried I am sure many modellers will want to replace their Hornby Power cars with these. Especially the ones Lima didn't manage before they went under, for example: the latest First Great Western and Midland Mainline liveries. And maybe even Cotswold Rail.
Personally I would look forward to the current FGW livery on the ex-Lima Power Car. But I imagine this either won't happen or will be a very long wait so I won't hold my breath.
I've heard of other modellers having their Lima Power Cars professionally resprayed in the current FGW livery. Does anybody know who does this and how much they charge? I Look forward to finding out.
 

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I don't know about pictures, but I have seen them on the Hornby roadshow - they certainly look extremely good.

Regards
 
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