Hi I am going to build my new shed in the spring and looking forward to planning the layout. Having looked at quite a few layouts on here and on you tube not just how they are built but how they work . Trains come and go we know where in the real world but on the model. But first I should say what it is I want from the layout , firstly a double track with a four platform station, a town and rural scene . The station will have a small goods yard , the layout will be more about trains passing through with stopping trains . The goods yard used as occasional divergence . So this will require a storage area for trains in fixed rakes as opposed to a fiddle yard. The trains will vary from a single auto train to an eight coach express and a small local goods to large coal and freight trains. How the layout works is what I am looking at the moment I am in two minds as to have two levels. Having viewed other layouts some problems arise firstly the inclines secondly access to the lower level . Access , the bigger distance between the levels the better the access but that leads to the steeper or longer inclines . Even though the trains are to be in fixed rakes and not messed with there will always be a need to attend to a train occasionally so being able to see them and know where they are is important . The upper level being scenic, one side the station and town scene the other the rural scene where the inclines will be hidden under a hill/s . Being steam I am thinking a two percent rise which will need to go around the shed twice before arriving at the lower level . Until I can test my trains against the inclines this is all a bit of a guessing game really . I will be using oo gauge code 75 Peco and the area will hopefully be 7metres by 2.4 aprox with the track running around the outer walls of the shed. Any comments suggestions welcome . Jim
new layout
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I think 2% for steam hauled eight coach trains might be a bit steep. My A4 manages 6 but starts to struggle with 7.
My own plan is for a through station - I have about 9m - it is compromised by having two throats which really eats in to the space available. If I were starting over again - and that ain't going to happen - I would go for a terminus with an out and back in the style of Derek Goodwin's 'Thornton' or 'Hannem Central' by Capt Jango link.
David
My own plan is for a through station - I have about 9m - it is compromised by having two throats which really eats in to the space available. If I were starting over again - and that ain't going to happen - I would go for a terminus with an out and back in the style of Derek Goodwin's 'Thornton' or 'Hannem Central' by Capt Jango link.
David
PAPPA
I think you have a clear idea of the mechanicals, but not the specifics. Where is it located? Operating practices are totally different across: post-1948 BR regions, the pre-1948 'Big Four' and the predecessors of grouping. Get a clear idea in your head about where you want your layout to be, then develop things from there. Otherwise, it's nothing.
6991
I think you have a clear idea of the mechanicals, but not the specifics. Where is it located? Operating practices are totally different across: post-1948 BR regions, the pre-1948 'Big Four' and the predecessors of grouping. Get a clear idea in your head about where you want your layout to be, then develop things from there. Otherwise, it's nothing.
6991
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I hope that you may find the following information about my layout useful.
I have a set of six storage loops on a lower level baseboard only 300mm wide with a station on a 600mm wide baseboard above them. I have allowed only 70mm between the top of the underlay on the lower level to the underside of the upper level. Since I am using 12mm plywood baseboards and 2mm cork underlay, this means 84mm between levels. This was done to make the gradients as gentle as possible. Access is undeniably difficult but not impossible - another 10mm would have made it much easier. If there is a problem, I run out all of the trains in front of it, and then I can just get a hand in to pull out the one with the problem.
This has resulted in gradients of about 1 in 70 or so on the straight sections and about 1 in 100 or more on the 24" radius curves at the ends. My express steam engines slow up noticeably on the inclines pulling six coach trains. This makes me doubt whether they would pull an eight coach train up 1 in 50 at all. I suggest that you test this before the final build.
You may also like to read about how I am using infra-red sensors to automatically move trains along the storage loops.
Robert
I have a set of six storage loops on a lower level baseboard only 300mm wide with a station on a 600mm wide baseboard above them. I have allowed only 70mm between the top of the underlay on the lower level to the underside of the upper level. Since I am using 12mm plywood baseboards and 2mm cork underlay, this means 84mm between levels. This was done to make the gradients as gentle as possible. Access is undeniably difficult but not impossible - another 10mm would have made it much easier. If there is a problem, I run out all of the trains in front of it, and then I can just get a hand in to pull out the one with the problem.
This has resulted in gradients of about 1 in 70 or so on the straight sections and about 1 in 100 or more on the 24" radius curves at the ends. My express steam engines slow up noticeably on the inclines pulling six coach trains. This makes me doubt whether they would pull an eight coach train up 1 in 50 at all. I suggest that you test this before the final build.
You may also like to read about how I am using infra-red sensors to automatically move trains along the storage loops.
Robert
Thanks for the replies. David I have been following Dereck's Thornton and Capt Jango's Hanem Before he passed both very inspiring models .I really don't know if any or some of my engines will climb a two percent incline most of my loco's are Hornby built in China although just received a Heljan Night owl 47xx and these are the ones likely to pull the longer trains. It will be something to test before going to far .Having an out and back would still require two levels but would definitely be realistic in that it leaves in the morning then returns later.
6991 The location is some where in the west country, a fictitious GWR and a little LMS much as was found near Gloucester maybe with some features from the two stations without being a model of. The time in and around the thirties/forties sorry I did not mention that, as it is fictional the types of loco's will be what was used hear but not the exact names ,numbers.
Robert I have also been following your layout as did I followed your previous one. I did comment on your layout thread that I found your infra-red very interesting and if I may at a later date ask you for more details on that. I also noted that your storage is only 300mm wide so not so much of a reach I have started to collect some Colbolt point motors so the lower level will have to clear those I think they are about 70mm deep without going to check that. I had thought of at least 100mm between the bottom of the upper board and the top of the lower one. I have read that a two percent incline will reach 100mm in 4.8m given what has been mentioned the two percent may have to be revised. My other thought was to have just one level with the storage tracks on the scenic boards hidden under a hill with the scenic track running in front. Thanks for your replies and thoughts Jim
6991 The location is some where in the west country, a fictitious GWR and a little LMS much as was found near Gloucester maybe with some features from the two stations without being a model of. The time in and around the thirties/forties sorry I did not mention that, as it is fictional the types of loco's will be what was used hear but not the exact names ,numbers.
Robert I have also been following your layout as did I followed your previous one. I did comment on your layout thread that I found your infra-red very interesting and if I may at a later date ask you for more details on that. I also noted that your storage is only 300mm wide so not so much of a reach I have started to collect some Colbolt point motors so the lower level will have to clear those I think they are about 70mm deep without going to check that. I had thought of at least 100mm between the bottom of the upper board and the top of the lower one. I have read that a two percent incline will reach 100mm in 4.8m given what has been mentioned the two percent may have to be revised. My other thought was to have just one level with the storage tracks on the scenic boards hidden under a hill with the scenic track running in front. Thanks for your replies and thoughts Jim
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Pappa, if I had a much wider shed then I wouldn't have had two levels. I would have put the storage loops behind scenery or under a hill as you suggest. It would have avoided the odd sight of inclines going in opposite directions and the rear tracks going downwards into a tunnel.
Robert
Robert
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240 Posts
Hi Pappa.B
Speaking from 3 years experience of a layout with inclines, I would now be tempted to put the storage yard behind a backscene. Any problems I have, come from the gradients. Some loco's will pull 7 coaches and others with a similar wheel arrangement struggle with 5, I have Patriot that cannot pull 4 even with powerbase fitted..
As for seeing what is going on I use a Lorry reversing camera kit, brought for about £30 on Fleabay. It uses a 12v power supply.
No matter how well you plan it seems there is always an area where access is difficult. As always age becomes a problem, there will come a time when I will not be able to reach a problem. I have 300mm between the levels, I doubt you could reach a train at the back without moving all the ones in front if you get down below 200mm. On a curve I would now reduce the gradient to zero. experience is a wonderful teacher.
Derek
Speaking from 3 years experience of a layout with inclines, I would now be tempted to put the storage yard behind a backscene. Any problems I have, come from the gradients. Some loco's will pull 7 coaches and others with a similar wheel arrangement struggle with 5, I have Patriot that cannot pull 4 even with powerbase fitted..
As for seeing what is going on I use a Lorry reversing camera kit, brought for about £30 on Fleabay. It uses a 12v power supply.
No matter how well you plan it seems there is always an area where access is difficult. As always age becomes a problem, there will come a time when I will not be able to reach a problem. I have 300mm between the levels, I doubt you could reach a train at the back without moving all the ones in front if you get down below 200mm. On a curve I would now reduce the gradient to zero. experience is a wonderful teacher.
Derek
Hi And thanks for the replies. Some very useful suggestions .I did have a look at some helix layouts and I have to say not a fan. I want the top deck whether a single or two level all scenic . I have thought about powerbase and or using a banker engine. How ever listening to what is being said i'm swaying towards a single level. TBH i'm not even sure any of engines will pull eight coaches on the level without a bit of slipping something that will have to be tested. My concern with a hidden storage under a hill is how to remove the hill for access as this is likely to 4.8m long. I suppose the hill could be built in sections and would only be lifted occasionally Derecks use of a camera or Roberts infra-red would make for better control. Thanks again for your replies Jim
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Have you considered having the upper level not connected to the lower one. You could run the lower one through a couple of bridges, to pass under the higher level and conceal the lower storage behind the rest of the raised part of the layout. Upper level storage could simply be taken onto some sidings, visible or concealed behind some scenery on the upper level. That way each storage area only needs to take half the layout traffic.
Regards
Julian
Regards
Julian
QUOTE (kingjim @ 21 Feb 2020, 13:51) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>if your having the track running round the shed don't forget to have the door opening out ,Jim
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So that's what I did wrong!
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(Excellent reminder though
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(Excellent reminder though
Hi .Jim yes the door will be opening out. I will be having an entrance door at the end nearest the house ,there will be a half door at the other end under the baseboards and a pair of doors in the middle of the shed. These extra doors are for access and ventilation during those really hot sunny summers we have hear in England ha. The windows will be small as there is no point in having a window that is covered by the back scene . The other doors are also for fire escape hopefully never to be used for that reason .When the shed is not in use they will be bolted from the inside and not accessible from outside.
Julian thanks for your suggestion though that's basically two layouts it could be interesting which I will give some thought.
At the moment i'm spending all my free time at my sons flat which has been all but gutted a new bathroom kitchen to be fitted doors and frames skirting architrave to be fixed painted etc. So the shed is on hold but the weather is pretty bad anyway. Next step is to and seek building regs as the shed is over 15 square metres never done this before so a whole new experience to be had.
Jim
Julian thanks for your suggestion though that's basically two layouts it could be interesting which I will give some thought.
At the moment i'm spending all my free time at my sons flat which has been all but gutted a new bathroom kitchen to be fitted doors and frames skirting architrave to be fixed painted etc. So the shed is on hold but the weather is pretty bad anyway. Next step is to and seek building regs as the shed is over 15 square metres never done this before so a whole new experience to be had.
Jim
AFAIK the permitted size of a shed is set in the context of the size of the house and the area of the property. I assume that any separate sheds/other structures get added together toward a maximum permitted limit. IIRC this was brought in some decades ago when people started adding conservatories on the backs of houses - and the planning system became swamped with applications. Your simplest approach is probably to stroll along and ask your local planning people nicely. (It's not true that they have a cellar guarded by a dragon).
Something I have planned (and never got round to) is to put all the basic necessity circuits (light and core heating/cooling/dehumidifying) on one supply and all the hobby stuff (layout power, tools etc) on a separate circuit. This way there can be an "OFF" switch by the shed door - or even in the house - to isolate all the non-essentials - reducing any risk from a soldering iron left on or a short circuit created by something left across the track.
With a confined space a CO2 extinguisher is appropriate. With a wood shed water and foam are useful - BUT - you need a remote kill-switch for ALL the electrics... This might sound extreme - but it isn't so much extra effort and could save an awful lot of grief/bother. Please keep in mind though - the C)2 is for inside to assist you in getting out (delighted you're thinking about bug-out routes
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) The water/foam would be for outside to minimise fire spread to fences etc - while the fire brigade arrive. ALWAYS call the brigade - their attending a small fire is far better than re-ignition later when no-one is looking...
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PS Kitchen diners have been popular for years but I've never heard of a kitchen bathroom before...
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Something I have planned (and never got round to) is to put all the basic necessity circuits (light and core heating/cooling/dehumidifying) on one supply and all the hobby stuff (layout power, tools etc) on a separate circuit. This way there can be an "OFF" switch by the shed door - or even in the house - to isolate all the non-essentials - reducing any risk from a soldering iron left on or a short circuit created by something left across the track.
With a confined space a CO2 extinguisher is appropriate. With a wood shed water and foam are useful - BUT - you need a remote kill-switch for ALL the electrics... This might sound extreme - but it isn't so much extra effort and could save an awful lot of grief/bother. Please keep in mind though - the C)2 is for inside to assist you in getting out (delighted you're thinking about bug-out routes
PS Kitchen diners have been popular for years but I've never heard of a kitchen bathroom before...
Hi Bear I checked on our local council portal and I do not need planning permission as the shed will not take up more than 45 percent of the area available however I do have to have building reg,s as it will be over 15 square metres actually 20 square metres
it states that it has to be built using non combustible materials . Ah I thought that means not in wood but if the wood is treated with a fire retardant to a BS blah blah certified then that is ok . I could of course build it and hope that I don't get a knock on the door a bit down the line and told to take half of it down.
Thank you for pointing out the electrical side of things .I will be employing an electrician to advise and install we have recently had a new fuse board installed and there are extra spaces for the shed and garden (water fall ) I intend to have a fuse board in the shed so in the winter two small thermostate controlled heaters set on low during cold spells lights and a separate ring main for the rest. Everthing can be isolated at the fuse board in the house.
Fire extinguishers were also in mind not to sound paranoid though I did not think about one for the out side. The bathroom and kitchen are separated by a hallway funny how missing a comma can raise a smile. Thanks for your reply as always very helpful and appreciated. Jim
it states that it has to be built using non combustible materials . Ah I thought that means not in wood but if the wood is treated with a fire retardant to a BS blah blah certified then that is ok . I could of course build it and hope that I don't get a knock on the door a bit down the line and told to take half of it down.
Thank you for pointing out the electrical side of things .I will be employing an electrician to advise and install we have recently had a new fuse board installed and there are extra spaces for the shed and garden (water fall ) I intend to have a fuse board in the shed so in the winter two small thermostate controlled heaters set on low during cold spells lights and a separate ring main for the rest. Everthing can be isolated at the fuse board in the house.
Fire extinguishers were also in mind not to sound paranoid though I did not think about one for the out side. The bathroom and kitchen are separated by a hallway funny how missing a comma can raise a smile. Thanks for your reply as always very helpful and appreciated. Jim
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OK well looks like you are going down my trackplan pathway somewhat so here is the low down
1. I make a crawl under in the corners so I can access the lower level points (if they get stuck)
also derailed locos as this is where they will derail
2. All the scenery lifts out in sections for access.
3. The slope is 33% and nearly everything will climb this, my coach length is up to 6 on the lower level and 5 elsewhere
4. Pretty much all the 6 coupled locos cope with this, if they struggle add some weight, lead or tyre weights. powerbase looks useful here.
5. I run goods trains up to 16 wagons incl the van and they might all be heavy Wrenn stock but not on the gradients these are either newer lightweight stuff or mixed and trains tend to be 12/13 wagons.
6. The high level is set for a Metcalfe bridge this is 132mm to the track base and this means climbs of over 4 metres and I have two of these as the up-along-down-along loops are double track, kinda looks like Bowling Junction out of Bradford (see Pennine Steam)
7. Curves on the turns cause a difference in plane so not only a climb but a plane adjustment, you might try the curves as flat in such cases as I did previously.
8. I use a Bachmann jinty or Hornby J50 as a thunderbird very slow geared, my kit built 0-8-0tank Q1 could pull absolutely everything up the gradient so is the champion in this category (it is very heavy has a portescap motor)
9. In some cases wagons are connected by Roco/Bemo style couplings which solve the bunching up problem going downhill with tension locks esp the droopy things we OO types get to use can lock together (not a big problem but I like it to work faultlessly and easily
1. I make a crawl under in the corners so I can access the lower level points (if they get stuck)
also derailed locos as this is where they will derail
2. All the scenery lifts out in sections for access.
3. The slope is 33% and nearly everything will climb this, my coach length is up to 6 on the lower level and 5 elsewhere
4. Pretty much all the 6 coupled locos cope with this, if they struggle add some weight, lead or tyre weights. powerbase looks useful here.
5. I run goods trains up to 16 wagons incl the van and they might all be heavy Wrenn stock but not on the gradients these are either newer lightweight stuff or mixed and trains tend to be 12/13 wagons.
6. The high level is set for a Metcalfe bridge this is 132mm to the track base and this means climbs of over 4 metres and I have two of these as the up-along-down-along loops are double track, kinda looks like Bowling Junction out of Bradford (see Pennine Steam)
7. Curves on the turns cause a difference in plane so not only a climb but a plane adjustment, you might try the curves as flat in such cases as I did previously.
8. I use a Bachmann jinty or Hornby J50 as a thunderbird very slow geared, my kit built 0-8-0tank Q1 could pull absolutely everything up the gradient so is the champion in this category (it is very heavy has a portescap motor)
9. In some cases wagons are connected by Roco/Bemo style couplings which solve the bunching up problem going downhill with tension locks esp the droopy things we OO types get to use can lock together (not a big problem but I like it to work faultlessly and easily
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How you getting on Pappa B anyway here is a shot of my main station to keep you going, the tracks through tend to be 3 per main line so the middle one is a dual direction as per Nottingham Victoria where the freight trains went through the middle lines so as not to disturb the passengers on the platforms but this then was 2 tracks into either end, you need length for this so by having 4 tracks into each end this has fewer points and longer lines in the platforms
Too much stock hanging about but I find I just have to squeeze in as much as I can
Too much stock hanging about but I find I just have to squeeze in as much as I can
HI I have been having trouble getting on with this new forum setup must admit i don,t like it. This has more to do with my computer skills or lack of them than the forum. As for my progress i have now completed my younger sons flat refurb that's two in last two years. So i am now building my shed at last it will take the next couple of months to get it in the dry and maybe some more after that for the inside. I pretty much decided to have the layout on one level and try to keep it as simple as possible but until the shed is complete i'm not thinking much about the layout as such more focused on finding the extra money to pay for the inflated prices of building materials . Jim
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I know what you mean but we either put up with it or quit the forum so I put up with it, I liked the orange skin I used before and we older folk like what we are used to, I am sure this team put some effort into it but I do find the recent posts not always the most recent ones for instance and really I rather suspect that activity level has dropped as again some dislike the changes, c'est la vie!
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