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In depth idiot
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
'Tis a little arbitrary, but to prevent the first such round up becoming a bloated mess, how about another for everything announced from
the start of Q4 2019 until end Q3 2020? We have an entry!

Hattons, with a range of generic 4 and 6 wheel coaches, in all the liveries under the sun (almost). I can see these being both liked and
derided. Excellent for those who want RTR 'Victorian' coaches, no use for those who want specific models.

Interestingly, in their possible train formations publicity, two of the steam locos are not available RTR: the beautiful SECR D class, and
the well known LNWR Precedent 2-4-0. Do Hattons hint here at items that may emerge in OO; and possibly from sources other than
Hattons, given that they have ranged fairly widely among other manufacturer's ranges for the suggested traction?
 

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From what I can gather, people really into pre-grouping will still want to make brass kits, paint and line them. On the other hand, if you are just looking for something to go with, for example, a P class, an H class, or even a Terrier that has strayed into SE&CR livery, these will be worlds better than the Hornby free-lance 4-wheeled coaches, and a lot less work with probably no less accuracy than modifying Triang clerestories or Ratio coach kits.
 

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QUOTE (Richard Lee @ 8 Oct 2019, 14:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>From what I can gather, people really into pre-grouping will still want to make brass kits, paint and line them. On the other hand, if you are just looking for something to go with, for example, a P class, an H class, or even a Terrier that has strayed into SE&CR livery, these will be worlds better than the Hornby free-lance 4-wheeled coaches, and a lot less work with probably no less accuracy than modifying Triang clerestories or Ratio coach kits.

I think that's just the market they're wanting to tap into - old fashioned pretty trains. Ever since the current crop of pre-Group locos began to take hold there have been calls for matching stock. I'd still maintain though that the real reason behind the loco models has had nothing to do with promoting pre-Group modelling per se; it's to sell more everyday black locos to transition era modellers who can persuade themselves that going back in period just a few more years isn't such a bad thing
 

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Agreeing with both Richard and PennineMC, I will be happy to compromise for some good-looking pre-grouping coaches that look the part even if they aren't accurate for the railways I want to represent (SECR and LSWR, and possibly the Metropolitan as well). I only dabble with the pre-grouping stuff, probably because much of it is "pretty" and simply appeals to me.

As such, I fall right in the middle of that market Hatton's seem to be aiming at.

Good on them for this initiative, I say.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
(Pennine MC @ 8 Oct 2019, 15:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>... I'd still maintain though that the real reason behind the loco models has had nothing to do with promoting pre-Group modelling per se; it's to sell more everyday black locos to transition era modellers who can persuade themselves that going back in period just a few more years isn't such a bad thing.
Indeed. Nothing more than near exhaustion of the viable subjects built by the Big Four and BR. With locos the most profitable item, the net had to be cast wider to find more subjects likely to sell well.

(Pennine MC @ 8 Oct 2019, 15:44) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>... Ever since the current crop of pre-Group locos began to take hold there have been calls for matching stock...
And of course a major retailer has access to good evidence of the market size. I would assume they have a decent CRM system (I would in their shoes) and so can evaluate the customer inputs in a way that is out of reach of the manufacturers.

Anyone can call out for 'make this, make that, I'd buy at least twenty'. But a retailer can collect the asks, and grade their credibility against the customer's spending habits over a period of time. The requests of Mr Proven-Spender in short, are going to be the ones that are acted on.
 

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Derision already appearing elsewhere. Let the rivet counters carry on soldering - it's a broad church - how many watchers at an exhibition would know the difference
when looking at stock from that period?

Good luck to Hattons for thinking out of the box.
 

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Just another modeller
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*** Agreed. If I am building my own locos I will research and do my best to get it as rignt as it can be, but it is my choice to do so. Actually I do not consider myself a rivet counter by the way... I reserve that for those who spend their life criticising everything and actually doing not very much at all... In my experience, the loudest of them tend to have surrisingly little actual skill anyway.

Real modellers never count rivets, they simply notice when things are missing and fix it if they can :) :)

As to these coaches. An excellent initiative. I also modify RTR as needed, and having a base that is at least "believable" in its core design concept saves a lot of time as it can be a canvas to add whatever detail is needed. Life is way to short to think otherwise.

rregards, Ahjay
 

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QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 10 Oct 2019, 08:23) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Real modellers never count rivets, they simply notice when things are missing and fix it if they can :) :)

Oh, how I wish there was more recognition of that simple truth...
 

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QUOTE (Pennine MC @ 10 Oct 2019, 12:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Oh, how I wish there was more recognition of that simple truth...
(OFF TOPIC) There was one layout I once saw that had a Rivet Counter Detector van on it which gave me the idea when thinking of a name for a pub of The Hanging Rivet Counter.
(ON TOPIC) When were the last 4 / 6 wheeled coaches in regular service ? I'm assuming somewhere like the Easingwold or K&ESR.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
QUOTE (butler-henderson @ 10 Oct 2019, 19:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>When were the last 4 / 6 wheeled coaches in regular service ? I'm assuming somewhere like the Easingwold or K&ESR.
It may well have been somewhere on the former LNER system, still operating on the former GER section at handover to BR I believe.
The four wheeler used in the Titfield Thunderbolt fillum was ex Tollesbury branch...
 

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Hi Folks And now we have another Rails/Dapol commission for the SECR D class 4.4.0. All I hope is that this time they actually make a model that is far better than their last few steam era 4mm products. With a string of below par models recently in terms of accuracy it is rather worrying that this model will join the likes of the Terrier, B4, GWR Railcar, Stove R and Diesel brake tender in being poorly researched and designed and well below the standards of the best currently available.

One of the biggest puzzles to me is the fact that in July 2012 Dapol showed a Terrier CAD for their 7mm model in the form of an IOW extended bunker A1x with Drummond chimney with only one noticeable error. By 2014 the A1x as produced was littered with errors. Even the Spectacle windows were correctly placed in 2012 but all the mistakes in 7mm were perpetuated in the 4mm version. Rails had to request retooling of the spectacle windows but the other errors remain, even those pointed out on RMweb 5 years ago. Clearly Dapol take little or no interest in correcting their errors even when they have had ample time to do so.
 

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In regards to the Hattons 'Genesis' coaches, I'll definitely be picking up a BR departmental coach to go with my Hornby Breakdown Crane. I may get a few BR passenger coaches for my branch line (some East Anglian branches were still using 4- and 6-wheelers in the '50s, possibly because the GER persisted with the designs for so long, though most might have disappeared by my period in 1956).

What I'm seeing of interest though is that based on the dimensions a Hattons staff member gave on the other model rail forum, it should be possibly to cut-and-shut two 4-wheelers into a GE 54' suburban, which were designed at exactly double the length of their "six-a-side" stock from the turn of the century. Depending on whether the body lengths given are other the buffers or not, it may come out slightly underlength (52.6' as opposed to the prototype's 54' over the buffers) and definitely slightly underlength (8' rather than 8'10"). Converting them to arc roofs shouldn't be too difficult, depending on how the lamp shrouds are fitted. The only real challenges would be building a new chassis and fitting new bogies; the LNWR 8' bogies offered by Ratio are the correct length, though Gresley bogies may have been fitted later as coaches went through the works - I don't know. Whatever the case, they seem a closer start point than the Ratio GWR coaches I'd previously considered for such a kitbash.

At any rate, these look like great value coaches from Hattons, which I imagine will prove popular as 'representative examples' or as a launchpad for kitbashers. Hopefully if the pre-grouping examples sell well it'll spur the larger manufacturers to try for some more accurate stock. I could see Midland, GWR, or GNR stock proving (relatively) popular, especially as all three companies have RTR locos from that period lacking in coaches.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
(Adrian Swain @ 15 Oct 2019, 12:48) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And now we have another Rails/Dapol commission for the SECR D class 4.4.0.
Somewhat surprising that this superlatively beautiful 4-4-0 has had to wait this long for a RTR OO model. Development has clearly been
underway some time, as the NRM/Locomotion announcement presentation had what looks like a first set of test fit parts on show. I leave
it to those who know the prototype to gauge where it is in terms of fidelity. In terms of 'pretty', it's right there...

The interesting side issue is the implication that Hattons knew this model was in development, as it was shown in their advertising for
their 4 and 6 wheel coaches. They also showed the LNWR 2-4-0 Predecent.
 

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Hi Folks With reference Hattons 4 & 6 wheel coaches I really cannot see why a range of fictional designs with a range of different liveries is actually a better idea than a range of accurate coaches also in the same series of liveries. At least one group of modellers gets the benefit of accurate coaches whilst nobody gets accurate coaches if the designs are freelance. Provided a series of prototypes is chosen with features that are not completely unique to that railway, they should satisfy just as many modellers who do not want that specific livery and make those who model it extremely happy. Modellers have been chopping GWR clerestories and other coaches and seem quite happy with the lack of accuracy of the finished result but just imagine how happy the GWR modellers would have been if Triang had made accurate models in the first instance. I know how frustrated I was when I found it so difficult to produce other GWR coaches because the compartment spacing of the "First/Second" ?? did not match standard GWR dimensions. It would have been so easy to make that coach usable yet still the same overall length if that was a design parameter.
 

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QUOTE (Adrian Swain @ 17 Oct 2019, 17:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Folks With reference Hattons 4 & 6 wheel coaches I really cannot see why a range of fictional designs with a range of different liveries is actually a better idea
Presumably because of the market for a mass produced commercial venture - maybe it will lead to etched overlays from third parties like we use to have on a pretty wide scale. One thing that is quite noticeable over recent years has been the decline in the breath of detail/conversion parts/sets.
 

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QUOTE (Adrian Swain @ 17 Oct 2019, 17:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>... With reference to Hattons 4 & 6 wheel coaches I really cannot see why a range of fictional designs with a range of different liveries is
actually a better idea than a range of accurate coaches also in the same series of liveries. At least one group of modellers gets the
benefit of accurate coaches whilst nobody gets accurate coaches if the designs are freelance...
I suspect this is deliberate side stepping of the whole 'fidelity' aspect in the interest of producing a relatively low cost product. The target
market is RTR, where the only choice is the fictitious and hideously wrong in every respect other then having two axles, Hornby three
compartment passenger wagon. Low cost research to get the designs generically right enough and simple to produce, tool up, production
runs, on sale, chop, chop, chop.

If they can keep the price modest, pretty sure they will find a steady market. (If they don't it will punch a big hole in the often heard
argument for simpler and cheaper less sophisticated models.) Since generic RCH wagons on the wrong wheelbase dressed in PO liveries
still daily march out of retailer's premises and are cheerfully operated behind everything including current TOC liveried traction, I expect
these will do well enough also.

And Hattons will be happy to leave it to those wanting something better to look elsewhere, or buy some of theirs for modification. (The
intelligent choice for a real set of designs would be from a private builder that supplied to any company needing to buy in stock. There
possibly, apart from detail fittings, would be vehicles that had some legitimacy in the 'selection of liveries' stakes. But I know so little of
how such businesses operated to be unable to even confidently name one!)
 

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Hi Folks Sadly I have to agree with 34C that Hattons are most probably trying to avoid getting entangled with the Freelance versus Accurate scale arguments and it seems they are not alone. Most of Oxford Rails products clearly follow this course and we have seen other rather more respected firms taking the same part. However these models are not described as "GENERIC" but are supposedly accurate.
.
 

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QUOTE (Adrian Swain @ 19 Oct 2019, 12:15) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Folks Sadly I have to agree with 34C that Hattons are most probably trying to avoid getting entangled with the Freelance versus Accurate scale arguments and it seems they are not alone. Most of Oxford Rails products clearly follow this course and we have seen other rather more respected firms taking the same part. However these models are not described as "GENERIC" but are supposedly accurate.
.
On the contrary, Hattons' announcement does make it quite clear that these are a "one-size-fits-all" coach. Or at least so I feel.

The fact is you would be hard-pressed to see a manufacturer (even a big one like Hornby) take the risk of making a pre-grouping coach line from one company, and certainly not more than one, without some idea of what the retail performance of those products would be. How many people would model specifically the LNWR, or the Midland, or Great Northern? Then consider the less well-known pre-grouping companies like the L&YR, or the H&BR. The best bets would be the GWR and the Midland, given their geographical spread and relative notoriety. But even then we've only had those coaches available in kit form (from Ratio) previously.

Hattons are taking the step of producing at least representative models of the type of coaches that ran pre-grouping. Based on the commercial performance of these, the other manufacturers may well decide it's worth the risk to model a more specific prototype (based no doubt on the performance of specific Hattons-released liveries).
 

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Hi Folks I am afraid Ryan has misinterpreted my last comments. I was saying that Hattons ARE saying their models are freelance/generic whilst others claim their models to be accurate when they have failed miserably in some instances. Ryan has presumably never seen the Triang/Hornby shorty clerestories nor the scale length types nor the Caledonian railway bogie coaches nor the lovely little 4 wheelers to go with the Rocket model. The fact that these coaches, apart from the Rocket ones, are far from accurate makes them no less Pre-grouping. I suspect that with the long life they have led and, in the case of the shorty clerestories with other liveries, Midland? and NER? these models have already sold far more for Hornby than Hattons will manage.
I assume Ryan has not noticed the re-appearance of the GWR shorty clerestories in this years catalogue ?? I think I may have already mentioned the kits by Keysers for LBSC, LNWR and GWR 4 or 6 wheel coaches but they have been long gone. Even though I own the Patterns I doubt whitemetal kits would still be saleable. Another source of pre-grouping LSWR coaches are the rebuilds by the SR in the 1930s which I have no doubt some modellers are making good use of.
 

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QUOTE (Adrian Swain @ 20 Oct 2019, 16:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Folks I am afraid Ryan has misinterpreted my last comments. I was saying that Hattons ARE saying their models are freelance/generic whilst others claim their models to be accurate when they have failed miserably in some instances. Ryan has presumably never seen the Triang/Hornby shorty clerestories nor the scale length types nor the Caledonian railway bogie coaches nor the lovely little 4 wheelers to go with the Rocket model. The fact that these coaches, apart from the Rocket ones, are far from accurate makes them no less Pre-grouping. I suspect that with the long life they have led and, in the case of the shorty clerestories with other liveries, Midland? and NER? these models have already sold far more for Hornby than Hattons will manage.
I assume Ryan has not noticed the re-appearance of the GWR shorty clerestories in this years catalogue ?? I think I may have already mentioned the kits by Keysers for LBSC, LNWR and GWR 4 or 6 wheel coaches but they have been long gone. Even though I own the Patterns I doubt whitemetal kits would still be saleable. Another source of pre-grouping LSWR coaches are the rebuilds by the SR in the 1930s which I have no doubt some modellers are making good use of.

I think I may have misunderstood your post more generally. I was under the impression you were lamenting the development of these generic coaches as opposed to prototypical examples. My apologies.

I am indeed aware of the former Triang clerestories currently in the Hornby RailRoad range in (a rather blandly applied IMO) GWR livery. Of course these are still the best (in fact, the only) option for turn-of-the-century Mainline coaches RTR (MR modellers may get more accurate results from the Ratio Midland Clerestories, if they're willing to kit build). My comments on accuracy were more directed to the old Triang 4-wheelers. I respectfully disagree that these coaches are justifiably pre-grouping. They may be (somewhat) representative of early coaching stock, but they lack many of the traits that make a late-19th Century coach. Few were only 3 compartments, or so small. Thus, in my view, the new Hattons offering is far more representative of what I think many modellers would understand to be pre-grouping (I should perhaps have said Era 2 for clarity).

I do think it's an unfair comparison to say Hattons will sell fewer of these Genesis coaches than Hornby have sold ex-Triang coaches however. Those models have been in constant or near-constant production for decades, from a major manufacturer who can absorb the cost of maintaining such tooling. Hattons is far from a major manufacturer at this time, but these coaches cost half as much as current RTR high-detail coaches, and only around 50% more than the Hornby 4-wheelers, so I think Hattons may have a good basis model for producing sales. Only time will really tell.

Again, I think there is some hope to be had that this move may see other manufacturers (like Hornby) explore the potential for a prototypical pre-grouping coach line, based on how Hattons' Genesis coaches perform, and in what liveries. Again, time will tell.
 
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