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Hi Folks I am afraid Ryan still has not followed what I posted, especially as neither he nor I mentioned the horrible tiny 4 wheel coaches by Hornby. I still stick to my belief that Hattons would be better to choose a couple of accurate coach groups, probably one for the 4 wheelers and a different one for the 6 wheeled types. Should one of the liveries prove highly popular and Hattons even do a rerun, their generic models will dissuade anyone else from making accurate versions as the market will be largely satisfied already. This is exactly what will happen with the duplicated Terriers, although they are both far from accurate, no one is now going to invest in producing a truly PEDIGREE version as the sales will be largely gone for a generation or more.
 

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Hi Folks I am thinking that Hattons are not actually aiming their GENESIS coaches at the toy train market and certainly not at the finescale modellers either. I very much suspect that the target audience are the collectors. They have little interest in scale models but can be tapped to buy pretty models, especially those which come in a set as Hattons intend. Since these sets are relatively cheap and don't take up much cupboard space I can see the collectors lapping these up.
I would love to know which prototypes Hattons chose as a basis for their designs as clearly some companies such as the LNWR and GNR bear so little resemblance that they can be ruled out, other than for their liveries. I suspect one or two companies are forming some sort of basis for the designs but already contributors on another forum are suggesting revisions to various aspects of the designs, Perhaps coming up with their fictional design has proved less successful than actually making the coaches accurate. Using prototype information is often less complex than trying to design something from scratch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
My attitude remains that they are a model of nothing, in just the same vein as the RCHish seven plank coal wagon on a 10' wb steel
underframe. Which sell in steady quantity with pretty PO liveries applied; and judging by the on line reception Hattons are going to do
well from these generic coaches. They are shooting at an uncontested target after all, a territory occupied by an improbable four wheeler
from Hornby.

It's what comes next that interests me. The one time domination of RTR OO freight stock by mis-shapen bodies 'modified' to fit on
incorrect generic chassis didn't prevent much better RTR OO wagon models emerging. My kit built stash of about 100 wagons has now
been completely swamped by an accession of hundreds of RTR goods vehicles in what I think of as 'expert kit builder quality'. These are
correctly dimensioned, featured and finished; and small errors (brake gear seems to be where it all goes to pieces) are easily corrected;
with the result that I can run the full size freight trains that a main line operation requires.

Might the same happen in pre-group coaches? I am optimistic, as always.
 

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Hi Folks Well let's hope Hattons next venture is not a range of generic misshapen PO wagons with 10' wb chassis and unauthentic liveries to go with these generic coaches. The first "Modern" 00 RTR 4 wheel coaches that I know of were those by Graham Farish in the early '50s which were certainly proposed and probably produced as I saw them in their offices in Dorset many years ago. They were the predecessors to their N gauge models and looked exactly the same. Certainly very generic as they had no panelling at all. They may not have gone into full production as I believe they would have appeared about the time the first generation of G F 4mm models was about to cease production. They certainly did not appear when G F re-entered the 4mm market with their new flexible plastic track and points range etc etc.
I wonder if Hattons will attempt the fully lined LNER livery on these coaches like some existing GER coaches bodies still retain with faux teak graining as well !! The panelling style is at least very similar to that proposed by Hattons. It will be very interesting to see just how some of the proposed liveries stand up when applied to panelling which is totally different to the original. I am sure they will sell OK unless someone else comes along with accurate body designs and liveries. At the moment the only contender would seem to be if Dapol make LBSC coaches for their 7mm Terrier and then shrink-ray them down to 4mm. That might put the car among the pigeons at least as far as LBSC and Southern liveries are concerned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Whining your way, the 'Kerosene Castle' 18000, the GW's experimental gas turbine electric. Commissioned by Rails of Sheffield from
Heljan. It will be interesting to see the solution to getting it around curves, because there are deep fixed side panels around the wheel
sets which are 'a problem'.

So, with the GT3 already taken, who is going to rush in for the Metrovick 18100? And with the list of post-steam twin bogie traction
prototypes almost exhausted, can we expect another proposal for the Bulleid Leader? Southern tank engines do appear to be in fashion.
Also, this one has the potential to be the best UK steam model for traction, ironically; thanks to the well known capabilities of the centre
motor with shaft drive to both bogies mechanism layout.
 

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I am inclined to agree with Adrian on the Hattons 4 and 6 wheel coaches.

When we at MROL ran the annual 'wishlist poll' a few years back (we ran it for 7 years), our observation was that the majority of modellers modelled a sliding window period of around 40 years behind the current date up to the current date.

That places most modelling as representing the mid to late 60's to the mid 70's period. By this time, all 4 wheeled and 6 wheeled coaches had long since disappeared from passenger services over 30-40 years before and any that was still extant was the last, being disposed of out of engineering stock.

What this means is that the vast majority of us probably have layouts where 4/6 wheel coaches will be well and truly out of period, unless one models one of the pre-nationalised companies or a 'preserved' scene.

It amuses me that we are probably going to see many layouts completely inappropriately running large numbers of 4 wheel coaches alongside latter day BR steam!

I guess that may rock some people's boats, but not for me.

Personally, I think Hattons would be better off investing in something else such as coaching stock for one of the big four.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Hattons are having a go at bogie coach models, but in O to go with their A3 and A4. Nothing to stop them down scaling and offering
them in OO. But I would guess that knowing the market as well as they must do, they will be confident of buyers for their generic OO
four and six wheel coaches, and they are going to be relatively cheap to produce too. We will see inappropriate combinations as
surely as night follows day: those who cheerfully run wooden bodied PO minerals behind a class 66, are going to use the coaches in the
same way. (If this is fun for the owner that's fine.)

The emergence of a significant number of pre-group loco models over about the last ten years, has I feel 'stirred the pot' a little, quite
noticeable that requests for what can be run with some of these early 1900s locos have increased. And the answer, which is of course
"practically nothing available, you will need to build what kits can be found". It's actually the first couple of generations of bogie stock
that is really required to go with the larger 4-4-0s, and the 4-4-2 and 4-6-0 types with which the UK's 'big engine' era kicked off. Much
of this usefully survived in service into the early BR period, so should find a spread of buyers if offered. Bachmann, Hornby and Kernow
have all dipped a toe in the water: we will only know if these productions did the business for them if further pre-group coach stock is
announced.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
And announced at Warley show, Accurascale have a monster nuclear fuel flask vehicle coming. (This very specialised traffic appears
immensely popular judging by how it is catered for. Second only to the Pullman car company's diners...)
 

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I suspect that the manufacturers are acutely aware of the costs of getting going in modelling trains, it is very easy to blow thousands of £'s so it is necessary for them as manufacturers to 'hook' the customer especially now that there are so many alternatives in the hobby market, even an expensive Macbook laptop is hardly more than a half decent layout ad this is where these coaches come in handy.

We old codgers droning on about accuracy (not that I do not try to model the 19th May 1962 or anything specific like that) know what we want and have built this up, even here I trade out stock I am not in love with get some cash back and use it to buy what is more appropriate.

So here comes Hattons surely the biggest sellers of all even allowing for the fact that Bachmann have fallen out with them want budget stock they can shift so ok a 10 foot generic wagon with Sid Bloggs anthracite markings sells for about £12, a complete train if with a smokey Joe and 5 such wagons then it can be say £18 for a loco and £50 for the stock, a decent express loco and 6 Bachmann mark 1's cost £400

So the manufacturers and retailers are desperate for stock they can pass on and if it is a fond grandparent buying for a child then anything will do and the more colourful the better so seen in that light it makes loads of sense for the likes of Hattons to produce a knock down cost coaches. The other factor maybe the desire to run something other than 1960's steamers and have a cameo day - say Great Central and other pre grouping but again you need period stock so this move by Hattons for a generic multi liveried set of coaches again makes sense and if you want accurate you buy a kit, so well done Hattons if the sales take off then a follow up may work as well.

What could be smarter than Butler Henderson in 1961 repaint condition?
 

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According to Rails email today and also posted on their website, Heljan are producing new tooling for a class 47. There are few details available yet apart from a wide range of liveries.

David
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
It should be added that the KR Models' Fell is a crowdfunded proposal. So if you want, go to KR Models and put the money up.

Several announced steam models were on show in various states. Bachmann's 1P 0-4-4T looking very neat in livery samples, that's an
interesting item* we will hopefully see on sale next year. Their long announced all new V2, an EP on the stand, looking very much like a
V2 in the one side on photo I have seen. Also Oxford Rails' J27 0-6-0, Hornby's Large Prairie 2-6-2T , Dapol's Churchward 2-6-0; looking
variously handsome, useful and brutish according to type in livery samples, all likely to be popular once on sale.

*Will Bachmann be the first RTR OO manufacturer to an optimum layout? Motor in the firebox driving the rear coupled axle, maximum of
metal forward of the rear coupled axle, lightweight tackle like the decoder socket and void in the bunker.
 

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My view as an engineer is that although rear axle drive is fine the motor needs to have the load on the driving wheels so having little load on the front drivers for say a 4-6-0 makes little sense you end up adding weight to compensate such as the Bachmann 9F does, so you may as well put the can motor where it is most effective, still plenty of room for the decoder up front or the tender if you prefer. You can make a dogs breakfast of this such as the Bachmann Ivatt 4MT where they manage to leave space for a DCCConcepts nano decoder and nothing much else.

However to minimise research and development and to make something with lots of scope mechanism wise then the answer may lie with the Bachmann 1FT, here is a diminutive loco that pulls like a train, so if you can get this performance level out of something this size then you have a mechanism that works for anything bigger so smaller costs and more flexibility - thats the way to go!

A great little good 'un the 1F tank

 

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Hattons have announced that the O2/2 from Heljan is on the way expected sometime in Q4 in 2020, deffo on my list and I think there is a good chance I can get one before I croak sometime in the next 20 years, so a good chance I'll see one before I croak in the next 20 years!
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
A few more photos of Bach's V2 EP having been seen, it's looking very well indeed. There's good evidence that the mechanism tooling is
all new too, as the formerly cast integral with the chassis block Cartazzi frames representation is very different. Better yet, Bachmann
are setting expectation of a late 2020 delivery.

I think they may finally be getting on top of their manufacturing disruption, as the release list for 2020 looks 'more like it': a steady flow
of the new items coming through. Here's hoping...
 

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Looks like Hornby announcing 6th January what promises to be a great range celebrating 100 years (if somewhat tenuous link to current company) of Hornby .

I believe Bachmann are announcing at a series open days, which are open to members of the Bachmann Collectors Club , the first of which will be 5th February . With Bachmann though , I think their credibility is shot too hell, probably announcing models that will arrive in 2024 .
 

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Bachmann seem to be making notable inroads into their backlog. Even if they were to be on top of everything they always announce what they intend to release in the next 18 months but the press and traders immediately make it out that the announcements will be available that year.
 
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