New photos of the Composite and Brake Caledonian coaches

Ravenser said:-
QUOTE I'm a bit shocked MRF ran to 10 pages on the Hornby 66 - a marginal rerelease of an aging model originated by someone else (as it happens a Continental manufacturer) , which has been totally outclassed by a modern generation model from Bachmann. Meanwhile Bachmann's brand new 47 - representing the most common BR mainline diesel , with a 45 year service life - attracted just 10 posts in 2 threads. It will be very interesting to see how many pages we get on the brand new state of the art Hornby 56 when that appears in a few weeks

And here we go again - a collectors limited edition rerun of a model from more than half a lifetime ago , representing a singleton pregrouping loco has run to 3 pages of discussion. Total MRF discussion of Hornby's state of the art rebuilt Royal Scot , released a few weeks back , is under 20 posts. The Hornby Maunsell coaches have been out a week , and we are busy discussing release of some 45 year old toy "representations" of CR coaches in preference

Could it be that the new releases are so good that it is very hard to have a discussion about them as there is actaully very little to say apart from "nice job!" and "keep up the good work Hornby/Bachmann".

I do know that other forums go on for pages and pages about a single new release but ultimately you get a very narrow discussion about one minor issue of detail such as a cab wiper or a rivet being in the wrong position that seems to go on for ever! Do you not find this a bit of a monotonous read?

Now releases with old tooling are an interesting subject for discussion and it is much easier to have a debate in the grand style that makes for an good read with a lot of diverse views and comments and member participation.

The discussion is not so much about the model as about the principals behind the rerelease. Now Bachmann don't actually have a back catalogue of old models to rerelease and so any discussion will ineviteably involve Hornby.

Happy modelling
Gary

QUOTE The Hornby Maunsell coaches have been out a week , and we are busy discussing release of some 45 year old toy "representations" of CR coaches in preference

I'd argue we need to move on and focus on today

Could it be that there is a high and frustrated demand from Scottish modellers ? The only crumbs we've got are a 45 year old loco and some tarted up Caley coaches on a Mk1 chassis. Compare this with the Southern stuff coming out our ears which per Bachmann are not moving off the shelves as fast as they might.

Simon Kohler once remarked that there was a proportionately higher number of modellers north of the border- how about backing this up with a decent Scottish loco. I don't hold with the limited prototype theory- if its a nice loco like a Caley Dunalastair or a Reid Glen- it will make its own market and stimulate its own demand. (Triang did it 45 years ago with the Caley single after all!)

Russell

QUOTE Your comment insinuates that we should just accept what we are given and accept it gratefully, or should we choose not to accept, it to suddenly acquire a completely new series of skills and take up the new hobby of brass kit building and to give up on ready to run. Ready to run has gradually improved through feedback to the manufacturer, your post implies that should not occur and that Chairman Hornby knows best.

no insinuation.....simply referring to the targetting of individuals because of their views.

Actual product critique doubtless welcome.

But there seems much manufacturer critiscm.....which is a different thing...and some choose to balance the argument.

In doing so they come in for vilification.

which all rather smacks of school playground attitudes to me.

I have no probs with anyone offering a critique of any product they choose......but I do note an attitude of customer ''rights'' over standards, authenticity to prototype, etc....which seems odd to me.

simply because, we have the choice over how we part with our money, or where.......?

Maybe I no longer fit in with the general trend of thought amongst railway modellers?

maybe my mindset over model railways is now in conflict with the general pattern?

Because I don't EXPECT the major manufacturers to meet MY demands....if they don't provide what I want, I get off my butt and build myself, or do without.

But I will stand up for anyone's right to offer balanced argument....regardless of my views...and have little tolerance for those who proffer personal attack simply because someone happens to keep getting in the way!

QUOTE Simon Kohler once remarked that there was a proportionately higher number of modellers north of the border- how about backing this up with a decent Scottish loco. I don't hold with the limited prototype theory- if its a nice loco like a Caley Dunalastair or a Reid Glen- it will make its own market and stimulate its own demand. (Triang did it 45 years ago with the Caley single after all!)

History records that the original Caley single was a relatively slow seller with the original 11300 produced taking 4 years to leave the factory shelves at Margate. A further 5100 were produced in 1971 and it took until 1976 to clear stock from shop shelves. You have to remember that in 1963 the prototype had only been out of service for just 40 years or so. That is todays equivalent of 1967 and the last BR steam trains.

To put this into context the original 1960 Britannia had 112000 sales over 9 years. 110,000 BR 2-6-4 tanks were sold over 11 years. 100,000 Blue Puilmans in blue were sold over 8 years and 120000 whiskered double ended diesels were sold over 8 years. Al the figures are in Pat Hammonds Triang Hornby books.

So a typical Triang model had sales of 10000 to 15000 a year on average. The Caley averaged 1600 a year.

We cannot argue that the Caley model was basic in design as they all were at that time!

The historical experience does not therefore bode well for a purely Scottish model.

If Hornby were to produce a purely Scottish loco then surely a Clan would be the perfect trial subject?

I wonder if the proportion of kit and scratch builders in Scotland is also higher than the national average?

And if there are any kits of Scottish models how well do these sell?

Happy modelling
Gary

PS In saying all this Bachmann are producing a purely Irish diesel on a commision basis with 12 models of 500 each in various liveries so maybe it will take an entrepreneur in Scotland who is prepared to take a financial gamble to approach Bachmann....

...or even Paddy Murphy of Dublin himself on behalf of the Scots!

Last time I looked Ireland had a smaller population than Scotland.

Thanks Gary. I appreciate the research you did on the numbers. I've got Pats various volumes of Triang etc too.

The Caley basically came about because it could utilise the Lord Of The Isles chassis. It was hardly representative of Scottish motive power. Its uses were limited. A more typical Scottish loco would sell more. Also , although it did appear in red in 83, the Caley 123 did not have lots of alternative versions/liveries .

A more widespread prototype, and amongst these I would rank 4-4-0 Dunalastair,4-4-0 Reid Glen, 0-6-0 Class 812 , 0-6-0 Jumbo and finally J35/J36/J37 0-6-0 family, would sell more. As they were all long lived, these could be produced in Pregrouping,grouping and BR liveries. The J37 lasted to the diesel period. There's a famous pic taken by Derek Cross showing one of the last ones with a Class 37 in 1967.

The quantities you quoted for Britannia were from the heyday of the 60s. These days all models sell less and I'm sure a Scottish model of the types suggested above could hold their own in terms of sales against something like a Southern Q1. Certainly I believe they would be sufficiently different to be appealing in their own right for those who may not necesserily model Scottish Railways, more so than a Clan, which looks pretty similar to a Britannia.

Anyway I'm convinced next years Hornby models will be a new tooling HST(which is why the Lima tool has mysteriously become badly damaged - no point retooling the Lima one if a new one is coming next year) and a T9 as Hornby again panders to the vocal Southern faction. Maybe I should write a letter to Alex Salmond to correct this Southern bias!

Russell

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 5 Oct 2007, 22:28) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And here we go again - a collectors limited edition rerun of a model from more than half a lifetime ago , representing a singleton pregrouping loco has run to 3 pages of discussion. Total MRF discussion of Hornby's state of the art rebuilt Royal Scot , released a few weeks back , is under 20 posts. The Hornby Maunsell coaches have been out a week , and we are busy discussing release of some 45 year old toy "representations" of CR coaches in preference

I'd argue we need to move on and focus on today

Neil S Wood
The sole improvement is a decent rendering of Caley livery using Sadakan's superb tampo printing. The tooling's untouched . To improve the loco would require retooling. And I think the only Single for which any case could ever be made economically is the Johnson Spinners. But they are way down the list of priorities
The issue, as Russell has rightly pointed out, is the lack of decent Scottish outline RTR. What we are getting is a tarted up rehash of a geriatric model whereas Southern modellers are getting all sorts of new goodies. Maybe it is just numbers that dictate what gets made.

Why would we want to discuss the Maunsel coaches? Personally they're of no interest at all to me as it's not an area I model. Start a new thread if you want to discuss them but this thread is about the Caledonian coaches. There is a limited discussion going on under the thread glitches with new items about the Maunsels.

We are aware that all that has been improved is the printing but when you have next to nothing provided for the CR you have to take what you can get.

What gets me is that in Germany you get all sorts of early 1900's locos in various liveries whereas we get very little of that.

QUOTE What gets me is that in Germany you get all sorts of early 1900's locos in various liveries whereas we get very little of that.

Hornby's own published thinking is that the German model railway market is 6 times larger than the British model railway market. Do you think that there would be early 1900 German locos if they were not viable?

Also Marklin history goes back 120 years so they have an early back catalogue and research to utilise. Hornby and Bachmann do not.

Its not just about locos. Its about coaches, wagons and infrastructure and as you can see it suddenly becomes very expensive to launch a product range for a whole early period for which Hornby surveys time after time suggest there would be little British public interest (according to SK in discussion).

Given a fixed pot of money it would be better invested in a modern British catenary system and D & E electric locos where there would be far more interest shown by the British public. What may rankle Hornby slightly is that in investing in a catenary system there would be a rub off effect and Bachmann would benefit as Bachmann as well as Hornby could then produce electric D & E stuff to run under a Hornby catenary set up. This may be the one factor why we don't get one! Its a pity Hornby and Bachmann can't get together on this and jointly create a system. Could somebody organise a spot of head banging?

Happy modelling
Gary

I think you got hte wrong end of the stick there Gary. i dont think neil was meaning that in germany they get re-releases of models that are 100 years old. i think he ment that they get models of prototypes from the turn of the century.

What gets me is that with very few exception there is really nothing available either ready to run or in kit form. i would love a penydarren or a puffing billy. to me they have a million times more appeal than a class 47.

What is actually available?
Hornby rocket can be picked up second hand.
IKB do kits for the broad gauge rover and the lion.

erm........

Peter

QUOTE What gets me is that with very few exception there is really nothing available either ready to run or in kit form. i would love a penydarren or a puffing billy. to me they have a million times more appeal than a class 47.

If kit builders believe it is a hopeless case it is very unfair to have a pop at Hornby or Bachmann for whom an investment would mean £100,000's. I don't buy the argument that if you build the models the market will snap them up. They won't and there is no futire in producing puffing billy and the like.

Marklin have the archives to produce such models which brings costs right down. There is absolutely nothing to stop them updating old tools if they believe there is a fast buck in it for them. You have also have to remember that German locos pretty much all look the same across the whole of Germany with a single operator so appeal is very wide which is definitely is not the case for British locos with all the different reqions of the UK having their own seperate identity. So in addition to the UK market being 16% the size of Germany there are also 4 or 5 strong regional identities further fragmenting the UK market and on this basis Hornby and Bachmann are miracle workers!!!

And Marklin need a fast buck else they are down the pan as would any company be, small or large, who introduces loss making items that do not sell in the numbers required. Hornby and Bachmann are not charities as some here seem to believe!

Maybe Heljan or ViTrains have a charitable nature and are your best hope for such models?

And ultimately do box shifters want slow selling lines on their shelves?

How would the box shifters react if Hornby came up with the idea of puffing billy?

Believe me there would be guffaws of laughter!!!

However pedro you are convinced! We have not had a good poll for a long time so why don't you organise one?

Have a simple question like would you be interested in Hornby or Bachmann giving development priority to puffing billy and similar locos from the 1850-1900 period? Yes or no.

Happy modelling
Gary

I think the only excuse for producing 'Puffing Billy'' , 'Rocket', or indeed the Caley single, would be to tap into the ''cute'' factor.

They'd sell because punters would see them, think ''that looks nice' and buy.

Very few would buy because their layouts 'needed' that particular loco.

Scottish locos are around.....diesels, and standard steam types.

Specific Scottish railway protoypes, especially the Highland engines, are almost completely covered via the kit and specialist industry.

There is a difference between the number of modellers living in Scotland...and the numbers of those modelling Scottish prototypes, world-wide?

Right where do i start with this nonsence.

QUOTE (Gary)If kit builders believe it is a hopeless case it is very unfair to have a pop at Hornby or Bachmann for whom an investment would mean £100,000's. I don't buy the argument that if you build the models the market will snap them up. They won't and there is no futire in producing puffing billy and the like.

I was not having a pop at hornby or bachmann for not producing the models. i dont care where they come from or if they are ready to run r in kit form (so long as the kits are of resonable quality).

I would love to know where this "£100,000's" figure has come from. i had a good giggle at that one!! are you seriously suggesting it would cost as much to tool a puffing billy as it does to tool the flying scotsman.

QUOTE (Gary)Marklin have the archives to produce such models which brings costs right down. There is absolutely nothing to stop them updating old tools if they believe there is a fast buck in it for them. You have also have to remember that German locos pretty much all look the same across the whole of Germany with a single operator so appeal is very wide which is definitely is not the case for British locos with all the different reqions of the UK having their own seperate identity. So in addition to the UK market being 16% the size of Germany there are also 4 or 5 strong regional identities further fragmenting the UK market and on this basis Hornby and Bachmann are miracle workers!!!

I frankly find this whole statement utter nonsence. i am strugelling to see anything in it that is true in any way, shape or form.
Marklin have been in the business for a long time but you have to remember that they cant reissue tin-plate models to run on our track. the archives are far less complete than the brittish archives and there are many survivors dating right back to the dawn of railways that can only be "best-guessed" in germany.

What single operator? sorry gary but you need to do some history. german railway history is basically very similar to our own. started with lots of tin pot companies which formed into the big 8 which was eventually nationalised in the 1920's. each had its distinctive look. gernam railway history is far more fragmented than our own.
Your statement that the loco's all looked basically the same is just utter crap.

Where i think we let our manufacturers down is buy being too fussy about what we buy. this fasion for modelling xxxxxx between april the 19th at 2.23pm 1944 and august 19th at 9.27pm is really letting our manufacturers down. i understand why people do it but i think people need to broaden their horizons a little. this attitude makes it very difficult for the manufacturers to do alot more than produce boxes on wheels that can be painted in an infinate number of liveries. there are so many wonderfull prototypes out there.

QUOTE (Gary)And Marklin need a fast buck else they are down the pan as would any company be, small or large, who introduces loss making items that do not sell in the numbers required. Hornby and Bachmann are not charities as some here seem to believe!
However pedro you are convinced! We have not had a good poll for a long time so why don't you organise one?
Have a simple question like would you be interested in Hornby or Bachmann giving development priority to puffing billy and similar locos from the 1850-1900 period? Yes or no.

You seem to have totally ignored the novelty aspect of modelling in your post. something which i happen to think affects sales a great deal. I dont thnk there would be laughter from the retailers at all. I happen to think a blue pullman or a re issue of the APT would sell very well for this same reason. they look cool!!!

Have either Hornby or Bachmann introduced a single loss maker in the last say 15 years?
would you care to give examples of where people on this forum think Hornby or bachmann have been concidered charities.

I wont start a poll for 3 reasons.
1. i hate polls
2. i simply cant be bothered.
3. i dont think MRF is a good place to do that kind of excercise. its an international forum.

Peter

I don't know if , but would hope that, modern tooling would allow the lower boiler fittings/cab to be catered for . Given the varients Hornby have managed on the Arthur , different cabs are certainly possible (so perhaps both D10 and D11 can be done). If the cut down boiler fittings can be done, then Hornby could offer Scottish and English versions of both D11 and B12. Logic says there is a shortage of medium sized LNER engines, history says Hornby will do an LNER 4-4-0, and it doesn't have to be a D49. Anyone with interests in the southern half of the LNER is almost as badly served as the Scots at present - no 4-4-0 ever made RTR (the D49s were NE Area/Scottish Area only) , no 0-6-0 (the J39s were Scotland and the NE only) no 0-6-0T bar the Austerity, no heavy goods loco bar the WD

Pre grouping locos are a funny one. The manufacturers seem to think this is going out on a limb because few model Edwardian railways , but the fact is many lasted very late. I've just looked up the 04/RODs - introduced in 1911, the preserved loco was withdrawn from Frodingham in Sept 1963 pretty well in original condition. Thats just months before the last Duchess went , and after the last Schools , both of which have been done RTR. There were about 10 times as many RODs as Duchesses and Schools put together. The first N (done by Bachmann) and the first Arthur (done by Hornby) date from 1917 and 1918 . So why's the ROD "esoteric" ? The Bachmann Super D could be a significant breakthrough

As far as distincitively Scottish locos are concerned , the complication is that after 1923 there were no Scottish companies, so new types were found in both England and Scotland. But there are several post 1923 classes with strong Scottish associations which may well get retooled in the near future - Bachmann's split chassis locos are up for renewal so we can expect a new V2 and V1/V3 in the next few years , (as well as a new B1 - they got to most parts of the LNER system) . Did the Rebuilt Scots make it to Scotland? I understand Compounds did

The same applies to coaching stock. I'd have thought Hornby's newish Stanier coaches would have at least some use to Neil and they are now out in LMS maroon. They're cheaper than the Gresley coaches and the main issue was the exact shade of BR maroon - the LMS livery hasn't been questioned as far as I know. What did a Duchess ever haul but Stanier and BR Mk1 coaches?

Much as I would personally like some ac electrics, the manufacturers , and especially Bachmann , who are more conservative in their choices, think this area is more or less unviable. Bachmann have announced a pregrouping loco (the LNWR Super D) but in their Model Rail interview they indicated they thought electric locos were not commercially viable

QUOTE Did the Rebuilt Scots make it to Scotland?
I presume you are wondering if they ever "escaped" from the West Coast Main Line which was their first home in original form until the introduction of the Princesses and Coronation class pacifics displaced them from the prestige expresses. Indeed 6115 Scots Guardsman was the "star" of "The Night Mail" film made in 1936 - "This is the night mail crossing the border..".

I have had a quick scan of "The book of Royal Scots" and whilst several unrebuilt versions were allocated to Perth in the 1930s, from the 1940s onwards it appears that Polmadie had all the Scots north of the border. That does not mean they never strayed from the WCML and visited other parts of the Scottish network. Indeed there is a photo of one rebuilt Scot at an Edinburgh location in the 1950s. In the same way that Scots could be seen in Newcastle having arrived with a train from Liverpool, I am sure that passenger services from Glasgow to other destinations in Scotland could have been hauled by Scots but you will need someone else to provide more positive information.

David