[dwb]

>Why on earth would Lenz allow Hornby to rebadge their top of the line decoder and sell it for less than Lenz's own price for the Gold?
Because Hornby have brand recognition in the UK market. So long as Lenz get the return they want, should it matter to them what price Hornby sell it for. Hornby are a publicly quoted company and the shareholders won't stand for unnecessary subsidies. There's also the "fear factor" - Hornby are going to sell a top end decoder, so why not a Lenz, rather than a Zimo, ESU or even in house design. I wouldn't have thought that Bachmann have an exclusive agreement with any of their DCC suppliers. I still think the Maerklin and Trix DCC controllers bear an uncanny resemblance to the ECoS.

David

 

[rb277170]

Hornby say it will be a top end decoder.

But then they said Digital control fom Hornby"designed to be NMRA standard" Page 18 Hornby 2006 catalogue. A bit strange they are only submitting the Elite now (and not the Select).

They also said DCC Fitted will run on DC. I'm still waiting for the response on that one. But maybe we had it when they announced 2007 new locos will be DCC ready instead of fitted.

DCC Ready is the way ahead. For trainsets and younger modellers ,they may put up with the lower spec decoders supplied by Hornby and the idiosynchratic Select controller. After all many of these trainsets will see limited use and perhaps not even last past Christmas (much like Scaletrix ). However Hornby need to recognise there is another market out there. The experienced modeller will want to insert his own favoured decoder. This may be the Hornby Sapphire but it could just as easily be Lenz, Digitrax etc etc

DCC Ready is the way ahead. I know somepeople have suggested spaces for decoders in tenders or fuel tanks of diesels. I think this is unlikely. But as a very base , locos should be designed with space for (any ) decoder , a plug for its insertion and have a body that is not like the DaVinci code to get off!

Russell

 

[Oakydoke]

Don't just think "British market" when considering Hornby DCC .
Their European ambitions are far wider than the "home market".

Now put yourself in the position of a company like Lenz.
I agree they'll want to protect their corner of the market, but when the "big boys" want to come in and play it becomes a different "ball game".

If the Hornby group intend to fit standard decoders and offer others as accessories, it will becomes a potential threat to the established DCC manufacturers' market share.
At the moment Hornby have a "ropey" budget decoder and the promise of an "all singing, all dancing" model; but who's to say what products they'll have next year or the year after. It may also transpire that competition with other RTR manufacturers may result in a "spec. war".
If Hornby "get into bed" with one of the competing decoder manufacturers, Lenz may find the Gold and Silver have been usurped and bang goes their market share.

Likely scenario? I really don't know.
I think Lenz will judge how the wind is to blow before trying to fight the newcomers.

 

[dwb]

>Their European ambitions are far wider than the "home market".
They'll need something _very_ convincing to break into the German speaking market.

David

 

[Oakydoke]

QUOTE (rb277170 @ 21 Jan 2007, 20:23) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>DCC Ready is the way ahead.
Russell

Why?
Surely fitting satisfactory decoders instead of half baked ones would be better for DCC users.
Non-DCC users should have the option of DCC ready.
"The way ahead" ? On the contrary, just offering DCC ready takes us nowhere.

Personally I would prefer to fit Lenz Gold and Silver decoders in all my locos, but if a new RTR model comes with an equivelent decoder (or better) pre-fitted, then I would be pefectly happy.
Lots of people would prefer not to have to take their locos apart and I don't just mean the trainset market.

 

[Oakydoke]

QUOTE (dwb @ 21 Jan 2007, 20:38) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>>Their European ambitions are far wider than the "home market".
They'll need something _very_ convincing to break into the German speaking market.

David

Precisely!

We are only seeing the beginning of their launch into the DCC arena.
What they are offering now are their first products.
I'll guarantee things will have moved on significantly in a couple of years time.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE ESU are taken by Bachmann

In what way? ESU make decoders which are used in Maerklin, Trix, Fleischmann, Roco, Precision Craft, Lilliput and Bachmann. So there is no affinity to any one single company.

QUOTE Hornby isn't big by the standards of Ford, Microsoft or Vodaphone but its very big compared to the likes of Lenz, ESU or NCE, and the little fish don't want to see the pike get into their pond

They make very different products. Hornby make budget toy trains. ESU, Lenz make electronics. While Hornby may produce budget DCC systems this is not the area catered for by Lenz or ESU who do quality middle and top end products. They are competing in different areas. Remember Hornby is only big or known in the UK and to a limited extent in it's former colonies.

QUOTE I still think the Maerklin and Trix DCC controllers bear an uncanny resemblance to the ECoS.

You got that right David. They both have the Ethernet feature too. ESU assisted in the design of both systems hence why ESU recommends so many Maerklin DCC accessories for use with the Ecos. The system was designed for use primarily with these. The only difference I have seen between the Trix Central station and the Ecos is the number of functions. The CS only has 12 as this is the NMRA specified amount where as the Ecos has 20.

QUOTE If the Hornby group intend to fit standard decoders and offer others as accessories, it will becomes a potential threat to the established DCC manufacturers' market share.
I don't think the existing DCC manufacturers need to worry. The only people who will accept Hornby decoders are those who have been converted from DC to Hornby DCC with the release of the select. Anyone more seriously into DCC and who was using it prior to Hornbys DCC adventure will be more likely to use Lenz, ESU or Digitrax decoders as they will be aware of the differences.

QUOTE Lots of people would prefer not to have to take their locos apart and I don't just mean the trainset market.

Absolutely

QUOTE I'll guarantee things will have moved on significantly in a couple of years time.
They will but while Hornby are catching up the market leaders Lenz, ESU, Zimo and Viessmann will be making new advances and rasing the hurdles higher.

Hornby has quite a bit of catching up to do before they catch up with the European manufacturers, if they ever do, and to be honest I don't think the UK is prepared to pay the price for the full monty. Hornby are only going to produce a system that they think the UK internal market will sustain and as has been discussed here before UK modellers aren't prepared to pay European prices so they wont get European standard products. I'd like to think that there is a section of the UK modelling market who is prepared to pay for a better quality product but I keep hearing otherwise.

 

[Oakydoke]

Good points Neil, especially about the prices the UK market are prepared to pay.
I think it's because of the age profile, with the majority of modellers here being retired folk.

I still think companies like Lenz have something to worry about if and when mass market companies like Hornby start offering Locos fitted with decoders equivellent to the Silver or Gold.
At the moment Hornby have stumbled in with "dodgy" budget kit, but this will change, as we see better spec items appearing.
Similarly if some of their separately available decoders can offer this type of quality but at a lower price, then the established companies will have a problem. Add to that "market presence", i.e. Brand names available at virtually every model rail outlet and many toy shops, as opposed to limited dealers and availability.

Moving further up-market for the likes of Lenz will only reduce their market share and make them niche players; well more so than now!

Again, forget about Hornby being a brand limited to the UK and a few other markets.
Their main operation is becoming European under the recently aquired brands, where, by their own statements, they intended to make their presence felt, albeit in the budget/middle sectors.
Hornby DCC under other brand names, will be sold there too. They wouldn't have gone it alone just for the UK market.

My personal wish is for Choice, Competition and Quality at affordably prices.
Brand loyality comes low down in my own list of priorities.

Oakydoke

 

[Sol]

Reading a couple of posts re DCC locos working on DC.
Yes they will if the CV to reject DC has not been set. They still run OK, albiet a bit slower for the same spot on the controller - they need a couple of more volts to get going. That is an advantage in that one can purchase the loco they want if it is already fitted with a decoder & know it ill still work OK on DC & if/when the system is changed over, at least the User may have a couple of locos already to run on the new DCC unit.
One of the new locos released here in Australia namely the Eureka Models AD 60 Garratt which has a ound decoder inside works quite well on DC with only some sounds not available until the loco is on a DCC layout.
That is one benefit of a DCC fitted loco, it will run on DC.

Ron

 

[Doug]

I think that Hornby locos are great - over the last few years they have re-kindled my interest in railway modelling. I also enjoy DCC.

I am a bit of a perfectionist and I like a good decoder - so to my cost I end up buying Lenz Gold.

I have said before that Hornby should include a "Lenz Gold" type decoder with their locos - there was even some financial reasoning behind the argument.

If there is a budget decoder pre installed, I'm going to think twice about getting the loco. The idea of taking it apart, removing the budget, installing a better one selling on or dumping the budget one... doesn't appeal to me.

I think it would be a good idea for Lenz to speak to Hornby if they are not doing so already.

 

[rb277170]

Already in the correspondance above people are saying they want diffirent types of decoder. Also some will want sound , lights etc . This is why DCC Ready is best.

Yes I accept given the fragility/complexity of recent models people will be reluctant to remove bodies. But this is why DCC Ready capability must be designed in at the start ie easily removable bodies and plug in chips. Surely this way gives everyone choice. From no decoder at all through budget decoders to Lenz Gold. also you pay for what you get not for what you don't want and are going to replace.

This is the way the US and European market is going - why not the UK too. Unless Hornby feel they dominate the market so much they can dictate terms. They've tried it once and failed!

Russell

 

[darobi]

I would be happy for DCC fitted to Steam as these are a real pain to get apart sometimes as long as it is a decent decoder as I think many others would as well. I am happy to take the Diesel's apart and fit my own Zimo's as this is where the functions really matter.

Bachmann seam to have got the balance right with DCC sound fitted ones which again most people would be happy as is. Their normal DCC fitted I belive are a better spec decoder than the one Hornby intend to use and if I think it is ok then I have no problem with not changing it.

The crux of the matter is Hornby are trying to sell a prmium loco at £100+ with a non premium decoder and people won't accept that and Hornby need to wise up on this as it will effect sales. People WILL buy the ready version and fit their choice of decoder, because Hornby are not giving them an alternative which is acceptable.

Darren

 

[Gary]

Just curious but as niche manufacturers how many production staff do the likes of Lenz and Digitrax and such like typically employ?

What I am saying is that I don't think the niche digital manufacturers are capable of producing in the quantities and at prices that the European train set manufacturers require.

Hornby may well end up fitting decoders to 100,000 or more locomotives in 2007 and produce 500,000 stand alone decoders for sale just for the UK. That could be more than the entire Lenz production worldwide!

Hornby will offer a mass market product available at 1000's of outlets with limited choice and at a competive price. Lenz and others will offer a more specialised wider range of product with features aimed at the modeller who wants more and from a limited number of specialised outlets.

The niche manufacturers will benefit from the wide visibility that DCC will have in the UK as modellers will be curious to see what else is available once they have their kit and start playing.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Doug @ 22 Jan 2007, 10:40) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I think it would be a good idea for Lenz to speak to Hornby if they are not doing so already.

I expect there will be a lot more than the usual of toing & froing between some of the stands at Nurnberg this year !

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Oakydoke @ 22 Jan 2007, 10:04) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I still think companies like Lenz have something to worry about if and when mass market companies like Hornby start offering Locos fitted with decoders equivellent to the Silver or Gold.
At the moment Hornby have stumbled in with "dodgy" budget kit, but this will change, as we see better spec items appearing.

IMHO - don't think so, except in the UK or other markets percieved as "Hornby". Don't forget Hornby's main market is the UK. They will have to go some to crack the european (especially German) markets. The european modeller is so totally different from his/her UK counterpart. Why do you think Marklin (stud contact AC) is so strong in europe ?
Yes, Hornby will do well with the Lima/Jouef/Rivarossi brands (no el cheapo decoders there - just the sockets as per the norm in mainland europe).
Even if Lenz/ESU & Zimo (to name 3) "lose" the UK market they won't worry too much - they have the rest of the world to sell to. Hornby may be a big fish in the UK pond, but at the moment are a small fish elseware & the whole Select/compatability/problems issues will have done them no favours at all.

Even though I am a "Lenz Gold/ESU man" I will give the new Hornby decoder a try - once only if I don't like it - I suspect that will go for the majority of the experienced DCC'ers as well.

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Gary @ 22 Jan 2007, 12:35) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Just curious but as niche manufacturers how many production staff do the likes of Lenz and Digitrax and such like typically employ?

What I am saying is that I don't think the niche digital manufacturers are capable of producing in the quantities and at prices that the European train set manufacturers require.

Not a problem at all Gary - ever heard of sub-contracting ? - living in the part of the country like you do (the "workshop of Britain" or regretfully used to be) I'm surprised.

Electronics if so easy - once the pick & place machine has been set up its just sits there day after day turning out PCB's by the 1000 with just a numpty keeping it fed with componants.

Even a very well known UK manufacturer sub-contracts some of its PCB work.

 

[Oakydoke]

QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 22 Jan 2007, 18:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...Don't forget Hornby's main market is the UK.
Not anymore it isn't (well soon anyway).
Hornby have aquired all those European brands because it see's it future in breaking into the Continental markets. The UK is regarded as having little or no growth potential, even a shrinking market.
That's why Hornby are spreading themselves out and while continuing in the home market have ambitions to"crack markets like Germany, at least at the budget/hobby/toy end.
QUOTE They will have to go some to crack the european (especially German) markets. The european modeller is so totally different from his/her UK counterpart. Why do you think Marklin (stud contact AC) is so strong in europe ?
I'm sure they will have a tough job, but I remember all the discussion on German and Austrian manufacturers pricing themselves out of business.
Haven't we seen quite a few companies going bancrupt or near bancrupt in the last year?
There seems to be an opening for a canny operator there?

QUOTE ...the whole Select/compatability/problems issues will have done them no favours at all.
Yup! could be quite damaging?

 

[dwb]

>Hornby may well end up fitting decoders to 100,000 or more locomotives in 2007 and produce 500,000 stand alone decoders for sale just for the UK
All the more reason why £15 extra for the current Hornby decoder in a Britannia is not good value for money. With those volumes, you should be able to fit a high end decoder and still make money.

David

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Oakydoke @ 22 Jan 2007, 19:06) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm sure they will have a tough job, but I remember all the discussion on German and Austrian manufacturers pricing themselves out of business.
Haven't we seen quite a few companies going bancrupt or near bancrupt in the last year?

Don't forget that H have had their "issues" in the past too !

It will be interesting to see who owns what & how it all pans out in a few years time.

 

[rb277170]

Spot on dwb but you've forgotten Hornbys high margins .

Can I just ask why the rest of Europe gets DCC Ready but why Hornby were seeking to impose DCC Fitted here? Is it because they thought they were big enough to force the change!

Must admit I find all these messages congratualting Hornby on MREmag a bit much.

They got it wrong!

They thought they could get away with imposing DCC on all of us
They thought DCC fitted would work on all DC (or failed to appreciate some areas of concern)
They thought they could get away with charging £15 for a decoder.
They thought the current R8215 decoder was good enough (they are only forced into Sapphire because it isn't . If it wasn't a quick forced decision , how come it doesn't appear in the 2007 catalogue. You might wonder is it even designed yet?)
They deserted and disappointed their loyal DC base to make a quick buck on DCC(no other manufacturer US/Europe/UK has done ths!)

This wasn't by accident. The Hornby Board and marketeers sat down and made these decisions.

Again they got it wrong! Only because of the mass of protest have they done a U turn

I wonder how many of the edited MREmag messages were anti Hornby?

Russell