New Sapphire Decoder from Hornby

I don't see Hornby being a big player - at this stage - in the German market. Their only real German brand is Arnold, and I don't really see N gauge as ripe for DCC yet in the way HO and OO are. They have bought a bridgehead in Germany, no more

But they are a big player in Western Europe, with the leading brands in the UK (probably) France, Spain and Italy. They may not be up with Maerklin, and Fleischmann, but they are certainly in the next bracket, and much bigger than companies like Piko or Mehano . And unlike a number of the big Continental players, Hornby are profitable, financially strong, and have a low cost production base b- none of which appliex to Maerklin, Roco or the late unlamented Groupe Riva'

Most of the reasons why I don't believe Lenz , ESU et al would speak to Hornby have been given by other posters:

QUOTE They make very different products. Hornby make budget toy trains. ESU, Lenz make electronics. While Hornby may produce budget DCC systems this is not the area catered for by Lenz or ESU who do quality middle and top end products. They are competing in different areas. Remember Hornby is only big or known in the UK and to a limited extent in it's former colonies.

That , I suspect will be Lenz's (or ESU's) view of Hornby - a bunch of hicks from some wet rocks off the coast of Europe who knock out a few toys and have accidently bought the wreck of a second string Continental operator without any real understanding of how the business works in the real world.

The whole idea of lower prices and competition to build volume sales flies in the face of the whole business strategy of the German market for a decade or more. If Hornby say they are trying to offer affordable DCC to open up the mass market, anyone in the German market will just roll their eyes in incomprehension . Anyway German modellers are very nationalistic. If its German it must be good ,and we buy it. If its not German it must be poor quality, and we won't buy it. This explains the persistance of obsolete 3 rail AC , rejected everywhere else decades ago, and the way manufacturers like Maerklin continue to issue coaches that are not to scale length so they can go round trainset curves - something discredited in the UK 40 years ago

Its a seriously skewed view. Meccano had that view of Triang in the 50s. But some Continentals can be very dismissive (and fairly ignorant) of Britain

QUOTE They will have to go some to crack the european (especially German) markets. The european modeller is so totally different from his/her UK counterpart. Why do you think Marklin (stud contact AC) is so strong in europe ?

I'm sure they will have a tough job, but I remember all the discussion on German and Austrian manufacturers pricing themselves out of business.
Haven't we seen quite a few companies going bancrupt or near bancrupt in the last year?
There seems to be an opening for a canny operator there?

France is fertile ground for this. The French HO market has been hit hard by the loss of a lot of key items which were in the Jouef and Roco ranges. Hornby have already made some friends by offering reintroduced Jouef at prices noticeably lower than before. "La retour de Jouef democratique!" as one loco revue forum poster put it. The French are clearly chafing under the high price regime - "miseramodelisme" or modelling on a budget seems to be a popular cause. French prices are further affected because all German brands have to be supplied via an importer, leading to a 25% mark up on shop prices just across the Rhine

QUOTE I still think companies like Lenz have something to worry about if and when mass market companies like Hornby start offering Locos fitted with decoders equivellent to the Silver or Gold.
At the moment Hornby have stumbled in with "dodgy" budget kit, but this will change, as we see better spec items appearing.
Similarly if some of their separately available decoders can offer this type of quality but at a lower price, then the established companies will have a problem. Add to that "market presence", i.e. Brand names available at virtually every model rail outlet and many toy shops, as opposed to limited dealers and availability.

Moving further up-market for the likes of Lenz will only reduce their market share and make them niche players; well more so than now!

I agree with this. And I don't think any of the established Continental DCC players will be willing to make serious technology available to Hornby for these reasons. Why give Hornby the tools to do the job. I reckon the thinking will be "Don't break ranks and do anything silly, chaps. Just ignore them and they'll be no danger"

For Lenz the UK must look like a tiny unimportant market. Given the low pentration of DCC here,DCC sales volume must be less than 5% of Germany . What do German manufacturers care about the UK market? Look at the way Marklin couldn't be bothered reintroducing British Minitrex? Ever seen Maerklin or Roco or Lenz or ESU at Warley? (Heljan have a big stand and so do Digitrax)

And Lenz do not seem interested in the mass market,. Theior preferred strategy seems to be to wholesale the cheaper end of the market through a RTR manufacturer (Roco or Bachmann) and limit their own brand to the higher end products. Until very recently they've never kept an obsolete decoder in the range as a budget option (unlike TCS)

Lenz just don't have a sales network to sell to a mass market. Never mind whether they could get the product made in volume- they're not geared to market those sort of volumes

QUOTE They will but while Hornby are catching up the market leaders Lenz, ESU, Zimo and Viessmann will be making new advances and rasing the hurdles higher.

Think of Lenz , ESU Zimo and Viessmann as makers of high end hifi gear - espcially Zimo. This is trhe world of the £1000 cd player or £5000 plasma screens. Hornby want to be Richer Sounds (for non UK members a aggressive chain of small shops selling budget hifi and home cinema separates. Infinitely better than a supermarket DVD player, and now only £79.99!!!!)

QUOTE One of the new locos released here in Australia namely the Eureka Models AD 60 Garratt which has a ound decoder inside works quite well on DC with only some sounds not available until the loco is on a DCC layout.

This uses a QSI decoder which is specifically designed for use on DC and DCC and to provide sound on both.

QUOTE What I am saying is that I don't think the niche digital manufacturers are capable of producing in the quantities and at prices that the European train set manufacturers require

ESU currently do, they supply sound and regular decoders for Maerklin/Trix, Fleischmann, Roco Lilliout, Bachmann and Precision craft. Maerklin alone would sell more trains than Hornby.

QUOTE I'm sure they will have a tough job, but I remember all the discussion on German and Austrian manufacturers pricing themselves out of business.
Haven't we seen quite a few companies going bancrupt or near bancrupt in the last year?
There seems to be an opening for a canny operator there?

Maerklin and Roco have seriously restructured and come back from that. This was a process that Hornby had to go through too. The product made by Hornby and the German manufacturers is very different. Hornby would be competing against the budget end of the market. Don't forget the strong loyalty factor that Maerklin has in Germany too.

QUOTE Can I just ask why the rest of Europe gets DCC Ready but why Hornby were seeking to impose DCC Fitted here? Is it because they thought they were big enough to force the change!

Could be or just that they think you know nothing about DCC and that they'd get away with it.

QUOTE and I don't really see N gauge as ripe for DCC yet in the way HO and OO are.

Have a look at the MiniTrix catalogue. There's quite a few including digital sound in N. There are several N MiniTrix digital starter sets.

QUOTE This explains the persistance of obsolete 3 rail AC , rejected everywhere else decades ago

No no no not again please!

QUOTE What about the Lenz strategy for the USA? They seem to be shipping plenty over there at prices much lower than in the European markets. Lenz seems to be the decoder of choice for many an American modeller.
This seems to have been missed by many. As Lenz are shipping loads of decoders to the USA they really couldn't give a monkeys about the UK market.

Hornby are in with a chance in France, Spain and Italy but they have none in Germany. As I said before the only thing they have to sell to the Germans is their live steam locos.

I am very interested to see what new items Lenz introduce at the Nuremburg show in a couple of weeks time. I wasn't impressed by their DCC offerings last year. If they don't come out with a new command station with a graphic display ala ECoS, Viessmann, Maerklin, Trix and soon Dynamis, then one has to wonder if they have decided that there are better things they can do with their investment euros, such as their O gauge range, design work for Heljan and so on. In other words having established the standards and market for DCC, they are moving on and leaving the field for the mass manufacturers.

>>This explains the persistance of obsolete 3 rail AC , rejected everywhere else decades ago
>No no no not again please!
No no and thrice no. Pretty please not again

>Roco, Lenz or ESU at Warley?
I think Mackays Models, the distributors of Roco and Lenz would be be very upset to think that their presence at Warley meant nothing.

ESU have only recently appointed South West Digital as their UK distributor. South West were at Warley and had the ECoS on display and I was able to buy a LokPilotDCC from them.

and Zimo have only just appointed DCC Supplies who also had a stand at Warley and I bought an MX63R from them.

Digitrax certainly went "Large" at Warley but I think this might have been their first time? Previously they have relied on Sunningwell Controls to bang the drum for them?

David

dwb:

No offence meant to Mackays - just noting that some overseas companies, who are clearly interested in the UK, make the effort to have a direct presence . Others don't.

Flieschmann have had a big layout at some UK shows to fly the flag. Marklin - don't, and have never been seen here. The fact Marklin don't, that they couldn't be bothered to reintroduce the Minitrix range , and that when Z-club GB got them to do a Z gauge 47, Marklin couldn't even be bothered to advertise the fact in the UK , let alone market it, does suggest they have no interest in the UK market

Zimo have only just got a UK agent , and the fact that I know nothing about Veisseman speaks volumes for their UK presence

I think Digitrax have been a sponser at Warley for two years (My personal take on this is that they're wondering why one of the worlds 2 leading DCC brands is almost invisible here and trying to do something about it)

But I do agree - Lenz really need to do something about their systems , and above all the obsolete Compact. What really strikes me is that they've already developed an excellent replacement for the Compact - but they've given it to Roco to sell in trainsets, rather than sell it themselves

If they don't announce a replacement for the Compact at this Nuremburg Fair , or the very latest at the next, then I think you may be right about them opting out.

Just out of interest - how old is Bernhard Lenz now?

QUOTE But I do agree - Lenz really need to do something about their systems , and above all the obsolete Compact. What really strikes me is that they've already developed an excellent replacement for the Compact - but they've given it to Roco to sell in trainsets, rather than sell it themselves

If they don't announce a replacement for the Compact at this Nuremburg Fair , or the very latest at the next, then I think you may be right about them opting out.

I was just rummaging round the ESU sight looking for something when I came across this little nugget in connection with litigation by QSI against ESU. QSI seems to use litigation as their main defence against all rivals and in this instance they are probably unhappy about getting the bump from BLI/PCM in favour of ESU.

The item said;

ESU LLC's products are based on the well-known LokSound technology. LokSound is used by the largest model railroad manufacturers worldwide and is the world market leader for realistic sound in models.
LokSound was the first company introducing a flash-based sound decoder enabling the user to create their own, custom-made sounds. Further, ESU's decoder technology provides the user not only with prototypical sound, but also excellent motor control including back emf.
Since 1999, all major European model train manufacturers including Märklin, Trix, Roco, Fleischmann, Mehano, Brawa, Liliput, Bachmann Uk, Electrotren, Hübner, Kiss, KM-1 and many others successfully use our products. LokSound technology is carefully designed to respect others patents and IP.
ESU LLC is proud to promote and sell these famous products in the US market so the American model railroader can benefit from ESU's 10 years of experience making sound decoders and serving model train companies with excellently engineered, reliable products.

There's only one European train manufacturer I can see missing from that list. If all the European majors, other than Hornby, are using ESU decoders then it may explain why Lenz have gone on to do other things. Maybe ESU have pushed Lenz out of the market? Hornby would be well advised to adopt ESU sound, should they choose to go that way, rather than "have a go" like they have done so far. If ESU are supplying to all the above listed manufacturers then they must easily be the largest producer of pre installed decoders?

QUOTE (rb277170 @ 22 Jan 2007, 20:21) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Spot on dwb but you've forgotten Hornbys high margins .

Can I just ask why the rest of Europe gets DCC Ready but why Hornby were seeking to impose DCC Fitted here? Is it because they thought they were big enough to force the change!

Must admit I find all these messages congratualting Hornby on MREmag a bit much.

They got it wrong!

They thought they could get away with imposing DCC on all of us
They thought DCC fitted would work on all DC (or failed to appreciate some areas of concern)
They thought they could get away with charging £15 for a decoder.
They thought the current R8215 decoder was good enough (they are only forced into Sapphire because it isn't . If it wasn't a quick forced decision , how come it doesn't appear in the 2007 catalogue. You might wonder is it even designed yet?)
They deserted and disappointed their loyal DC base to make a quick buck on DCC(no other manufacturer US/Europe/UK has done ths!)

This wasn't by accident. The Hornby Board and marketeers sat down and made these decisions.

Again they got it wrong! Only because of the mass of protest have they done a U turn

I wonder how many of the edited MREmag messages were anti Hornby?
Russell

I bought a Britannia 70030 (which referred to in a review elsewhere) and complained to Hornby about the fixed trailing wheel and got a response which incensed me. They thought that because it looked good it was good and the take-up on the model was good. I don't know who is informing Hornby of this encouraging result? Any ideas? I have corresponded with Hornby for a long time and I was quite taken by surprise by the 'We have got it right' response. I suppose that 'caveat emptor' should have prevailed and I should have looked at the trailing bogie more closely, then not bought it! I have certainly done that where the rebuilt WC/BoB is concerned, which is even more annoying as I put that on a wish list passed to Hornby when the Rebuilt Merchant Navy was released.

This attitude of Hornby is quite odd, because they say that they listen to their customers, but I have been watching the emergence of Hornby into the DCC Arena, and found that their take on this area of operations as strange, as if they are trying to create a captive audience as if Hornby DCC was the only way to go, when we all know the way is open source (look at the ESU Ecos) and has to be NMRA Compliant, to be effective. I am intending to get a ESU Ecos to work with my ZTC 511, controlling TCS/Lenz decoders and accessories. Someone will have to do a lot of persuading for me to buy Hornby DCC equipment in any quantity.

On the attitude of the Railway Mags,so far I can't see an editorial blast at Hornby, as if they are being protected for being the Holy Grail, being the only British Model Railway Company. Am I wrong in thinking this?

QUOTE On the attitude of the Railway Mags,so far I can't see an editorial blast at Hornby, as if they are being protected for being the Holy Grail, being the only British Model Railway Company. Am I wrong in thinking this? I don't think anyone who either runs a British outline magazine or a forum which focuses on British outline can dare alienate Hornby as they are responsible for such a large chunk of the UK market. Magazines especially rely on advertising and to lose Hornby's adverts would cost a magazine dearly hence the reluctance to tackle Hornby head on and openly criticise them. The only true feedback they will get is through chat on forums like this or face to face at trade shows. I guess that people with an economic interest don't want to take the chance that negative feedback will p**s them off.

To be fair though the impression I get is that Hornby do seem to be very willing to listen to and act on feedback from customers. The release of this saphire decoder is in direct response to the complaints about the limitations of the previous decoder. They have acted quite quickly on this too.

I really hate to go on and on about this- and I know I'm doing it, but Hornby announced to the Model Railway Market on 13/12/06 that they intended to make new locos DCC Fitted (rescinded 17/01/07).This announcement had also appeared on MREmag about this time. The model railway mags carried their 2007 range announcement but not one of them raised questions over Hornbys policy. At least not publicly. Doesn't this seem strange for something that affects all of us modelling the UK scene? Probably the biggest announcement and most significant in years ,yet not a word of discontent/clarification?

There have been no comments in the Model Railway press about the suitability of running models on DC (can you or can't you?) or about the increased costs for DC users (still >75% of the market). In fact there is no comment on increasing costs in general.

Similarly I wonder if we will see any of the issues over DCC compatibilty (all manufacturers) raised in the mags? I'll bet not ,yet isn't it one of their tasks to inform their readership?

Thank goodness for forums such as this which enable open debate. There was a thread earlier on this week about posting etiquet . This reminder was issued after someone (Gary or Doug?)had been to the toyfair and had discussions with the manufacturers. Apparently there was some discontent with the content of this forum(and probably others). Not sure which manufacturer it was, or whether there was more than one but even here it appears manufacturers are trying to have influence. Curiously I can't find this thread again. Has it been removed?

Russell

QUOTE I don't think anyone who either runs a British outline magazine or a forum which focuses on British outline can dare alienate Hornby as they are responsible for such a large chunk of the UK market.

Rail Express have "difficult" relationships with Bachmann, and have used the editorial column and reviews to make their point - I think one editorial claimed they had forced Bachmann to retool the 37. They and others have been pretty critical of Heljan too. There's nothing to criticise on the Hornby 60 or 08, and REx doesn't do steam

Modern Railway Modelling employed the author of "electricnose" as lead reviewer for some time. He's hardly known as an apologist for the manufacturers....

Model Railway Journal doesn't depend on RTR at all. Mind you their target audience is only now hearing that DCC exists... I bet MRJ never even mentions the existance of either Select or Elite.

As for people owning forums not daring to alienate the manufacturers - don't you believe it!. The author of the "electricnose" site was also owner/moderator of most of the specialist modern image Yahoo groups of the last 6-7 years. They were hardly pro Hornby or Bachmann or Heljan - their reputation from outside has always been as no-holds barred rivet-counter fests and I doubt if a poster supportive of the manufacturers would have survived too long on those boards

Bachmann is pretty well as big as Hornby in terms of British outline : remembering Bachmann have N gauge as well as OO. In fact in the modern image sector , Bachmann's much bigger - Hornby have only made a relatively limited push in this area, after virtually leaving diesels to Bachmann and Lima in the 90s. Hornby have not tooled up a new DMU /EMU since the Eurostar and before that the Pacer around 1990 (their 101, 121, 155, and 156 were inherited tooling from Dapol and Lima) . Bachmann have done 158, 166, 170, 220/221 , just released a superb 108 and are/were promising 150

It is in the "diesel and electric" sector, principally in 4mm, that the fur has flown , and inevitably the manufacturers who are heavily exposed to that sector - Bachmann and Heljan - have taken the brunt . Hornby have tended to focus more on steam, where comment remains gentlemanly

Result - relations between the specialist D+E magazines , societies , and websites and Bachmann have effectively broken down. Hence Bachmanngate last summer

Personally I think that the rivet-counting in diesel and electric has got out of hand ,and that the flamethrower and the vitriol bottle are not instruments of persuasion . The best new releases have taken an unprecedented torrent of criticism over a 5 year period, which has poisoned the atmosphere , and now the investment in new tooling for this sector is drying up.

Why is Dennis Lovett describing the 150 project as "not dropped" and poking fun at rivet counters? Why did Simon Kohler go out of his way to say the Pendolino was aimed at the trainset market not scale modellers ?

I'm afraid, living as I do in the bombed out rubble created by the War against the Manufacturers in 4mm D+E, I'm not up for a new campaign against another manufacturer...

But as far as magazines criticising Hornby - lets see what Rail Express and MRM say about the Pendolino . Personally I think it opens up a lot of ground for modelling and we're lucky to get it at all

I would imagine the magazines will wait for feedback from their readers before taking any stance on DCC Fitted . Watch the letters pages - though Hornby may have spiked their guns.

RM indicated they would do an in depth review of the Select next month, once they had had time to test it.

I think the posting on etiquette is in Station Concourse

Hi All,

I've just read this thread with great interest. I'm thinking of starting up a model railway again (ex Zero 1 user) and before I start spending my hard earned pennies I'm reading as much as poss!!

The Lenz Gold decoder seems highly recommended and I think I'll go with it instead of Hornby's new Sapphire.

Is their a Lenz Gold Range? If so which decoder would be recommended for oo Gauge Diesel models?

Thanks in advance

Nitemare