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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We now have a number of models on the market that represent the preserved national Collection. They are faithfully modelled as they now appear. See Sir Lamiel and the new Royal Scot. They are beautiful models, esp the scot but they are fictitious. To begin with the Scott is in LMS crimson without smoke deflectors. Great colour but even Hornby state on the box that it never ran in this livery, To make matters worse it has electrical warning flashes. As does Sir Lamiel why? what market are these aimed at. I suppose the glass case brigade. Not for me. I wouldn't have Black Prince or Green Knight either two more fictitious locos
 

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QUOTE (Noggins Friend @ 30 Dec 2007, 00:03) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>We now have a number of models on the market that represent the preserved national Collection. They are faithfully modelled as they now appear. See Sir Lamiel and the new Royal Scot. They are beautiful models, esp the scot but they are fictitious. To begin with the Scott is in LMS crimson without smoke deflectors. Great colour but even Hornby state on the box that it never ran in this livery, To make matters worse it has electrical warning flashes. As does Sir Lamiel why? what market are these aimed at. I suppose the glass case brigade. Not for me. I wouldn't have Black Prince or Green Knight either two more fictitious locos

Hmm. If you are referring to 9f Black Prince then I agree that its name has only recently been given, I do not however see the problem. There was a Britannia class number 70008 named Black Prince I believe. Are you certain about Green Knight? I was given to understand that it did indeed exist. A king Arthur class built at Eastleigh in February 1923 and withdrawn in February 1953. Feel free to correct a mistake if I have been misinformed. But if we take your argument about a locomotives original condition/livery as being the only legitimate one, then does that also rule out buying rebuilds? Are we to ignore totally the locomotives inherited by BR?

Im confused about your motives here.
 

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QUOTE (Noggins Friend @ 30 Dec 2007, 10:03) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>the glass case brigade.

They are just as much a part of our hobby (and just as important) than any other segment.
 

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QUOTE (Noggins Friend @ 30 Dec 2007, 09:03) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>We now have a number of models on the market that represent the preserved national Collection. They are faithfully modelled as they now appear. See Sir Lamiel and the new Royal Scot. They are beautiful models, esp the scot but they are fictitious. To begin with the Scott is in LMS crimson without smoke deflectors. Great colour but even Hornby state on the box that it never ran in this livery, To make matters worse it has electrical warning flashes. As does Sir Lamiel why? what market are these aimed at. I suppose the glass case brigade. Not for me. I wouldn't have Black Prince or Green Knight either two more fictitious locos

The same can be said of all of the strange Wrenn livery choices and most of the Hornby S&D liveried loco's, the LMS Crimson Lake Jinty and more ad nauseam...

Yes, I agree that there are anachronisms such as the deflectors and the warning flashes, and as I too model a certain railway at a certain place and time, I'd not buy one either...but... consider the real value, purpose and market for these models.

Firstly, they do the hobby good by increasing the volume of production from each costly tool so more fastidious modellers can have access to more loco's... To the NRM they also represent a tangible testament to their efforts, and to buyers they provide value in many individually equal ways.

Those who are collectors
Those who buy one as a souvenir and may not even be railway modellers
Those who see them during an NRM visit and buy one for their grandson etc (who may also become a "real" railway modeller one day).
Those who have only ever seen the loco's in NRM condition and just want to have one - and will be happy to run is as such.
Those who simply like them for what they are - nice models

PLUS these models provide support for the NRM and NRM projects with their profits:

Personally I think we should be encouraging the NRM & others to do this sort of thing.....

There are some nice loco's in the NRM, at Butterley and many other places world wide that may just come into existence as a quality model for the first time just because they are there... and they may ONLY be justifiable financially solely because of the "souvenir", "collector" and "non-serious modeller" potential at these places when the "serious modeller" alone could never have persuaded the makers to invest in their creation!

One mans meat as they say....

Regards

Richard Johnson
 

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QUOTE (Noggins Friend @ 30 Dec 2007, 00:03) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>They are beautiful models, esp the scot but they are fictitious.

I agree - but I also recognise it's a losing battle.

Preserved locos are themselves steadily getting less "authentic" as private owners add their own little personal touches and begin to cut corners. It won't be long now before someone decides to paint his loco pink. For some time it seems to have been considered acceptable in the preservation community for Merchant Navy and West Country tenders to be exchanged. Now some run with totally fabricated tenders which bear little resemblance to either. There was a discussion somewhere else about how such a fabricated tender could be modelled using Hornby parts!

But why not? That modeller only knows the loco as it now runs. He doesn't care that it looked different in service, or for that matter that it once ran in Malachite and yellow. I want a model of it as I remember it; he wants a model of it as he remembers it. Neither of us are "right". Oliver Bulleid conceived it as different to both our images!

So reluctantly I agree with Richard. If the Hornby's T9 came about partly because of the NRM's 30120 and the very strange livery it once carried, that's fine by me....

..... as long as at least one of the subsequent models carries an authentic BR lined black.
 

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QUOTE (John Webb @ 30 Dec 2007, 13:09) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And there are those of us who model the current preserved railway scene.....

Exactly- in fact, if you model the modern day diesel scene and want to run an occasional steam railtour on your layout then something like Royal Scot, Lamiel, Scotsman in preserved form, or the BR Blue preserved Merchant Navy Hornby did a couple of years back (Canadian Pacific wasn't it?) is actually going to be much more accurate than any of the other models in the catalogue in authentic period liveries! Limited editions like these will always mainly appeal to collectors, but there are also some modellers, presumably like yourself John, who find them useful on their layouts

When all's said and done, it IS an authentic model- just of the loco as preserved (assuming they don't put the deflectors back on when they've finished restoring it and it hits the main line...), rather than when the loco was in LMS/BR service. As I remember, Royal Scot has spent its' entire life in preservation painted in the incorrect Crimson Lake livery (originally done when she was sold for display at Butlins in the early 60's I think)- in fact it's probably carried that livery now for longer than any of the authentic liveries it carried in service.

As I remember, there have been quite a few locos over the years offered in 'preservation' liveries- the 70's/80's Hornby red Jinty Richard mentioned was based on a livery carried in preservation by a loco at the Midland Railway Centre. Mainline offered Royal Scot in preserved form back in the 80's, and their LNER J72 in a pre-grouping NER livery as carried in preservation by the BR-built 69023-(I've still got both boxed up somewhere) and I know there have been others- Bachmann have done a couple recently either for their collectors club or as commissions for model shops

I was looking at the Hornby Scot in a local model shop last week and I'll admit I was tempted, even though I know it's totally inaccurate for my LMS modelling interests. On the other hand, I can see it with a set of BR Mk1s on our club layout as a modern-day railtour....
 

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They're not exactly ficitious liveries just because a loco didn't carry them in its mainline service days, let's not foget there are quite a few preserved loco's that have spent far more time in preservation than they ever did in BR. Just because you don't want something doesn't mean to say there's no market for it. The phrase you can't please everyone springs to mind plus one or two less printable ones that I shall keep to myself. I dare say if you took issue with the real loco's owners they might be a bit less gracious about it.
 

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QUOTE (spongebob @ 31 Dec 2007, 00:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>They're not exactly ficitious liveries just because a loco didn't carry them in its mainline service days, let's not foget there are quite a few preserved loco's that have spent far more time in preservation than they ever did in BR. Just because you don't want something doesn't mean to say there's no market for it. The phrase you can't please everyone springs to mind plus one or two less printable ones that I shall keep to myself. I dare say if you took issue with the real loco's owners they might be a bit less gracious about it.

True- if you bear in mind that Royal Scot was rebuilt in 1950 and withdrawn in '62, so as a rebuild it spent 12 years in authentic BR Green- on the other hand, it was 'restored' into Crimson Lake at Crewe after being sold to Butlins for display at Skegness in 1962/3, again after it's arrival at Bressingham in 1969 and is currently bring restored a third time in the same form- it's now worn that livery in rebuilt form for 45 years, much longer than it carried any other...

http://www.butlinsmemories.com/locos.htm
http://www.bressingham.co.uk/ageofsteam/Lo...D/RoyalScot.htm
 

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"The Green Knight" was a name carried by Standard Class 5 73086. It is not a fictitious name.

Quote Wikipedia:
"In 1959, 20 of the Southern Region locomotives were named after SR King Arthur class locos that were then being withdrawn. These were:

73080 Merlin
73081 Excalibur
73082 Camelot
73083 Pendragon
73084 Tintagel
73085 Melisande
73086 The Green Knight
73087 Linette
73088 Joyous Guard
73089 Maid of Astolat
73110 The Red Knight
73111 King Uther
73112 Morgan Le Fay
73113 Lyonnesse
73114 Etarre
73115 King Pellinore
73116 Iseuit
73117 Vivien
73118 King Leodegrance
73119 Elaine

Colombo
 

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QUOTE (Keith.Wilkes @ 30 Dec 2007, 01:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hmm. If you are referring to 9f Black Prince then I agree that its name has only recently been given, I do not however see the problem.

I thought 92203 was given the name Black Prince by David Shepherd when he bought the locomotive in 1967. In which case it has been named longer than it was un-named.

QUOTE (Don @ 30 Dec 2007, 11:00) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Preserved locos are themselves steadily getting less "authentic" as private owners add their own little personal touches and begin to cut corners.

Flying Scotsman being a prime example.

QUOTE (Noggins Friend @ 30 Dec 2007, 15:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The current Green Knight is a Class 4 standard 4 - 6- 0

75029 was the other locomotive bought by David Shepherd. The only correctly named Standard 4-6-0 is 73082 Camelot, which I believe is currently on the Bluebell.

Finally - I wasn't aware that Royal Scot was part of the National collection.

Regards
 

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QUOTE (BRITHO @ 31 Dec 2007, 14:48) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The only correctly named Standard 4-6-0 is 73082 Camelot, which I believe is currently on the Bluebell.

Finally - I wasn't aware that Royal Scot was part of the National collection.
73082 is on the Bluebell.
"Royal Scot" started off as 6152 'The Kings Dragoon Guardsman' but did a permanent swap with the original 6100 for a tour of the USA in 1933! It is part of the NRM collection. (Information from Platform Five's 'Preserved Locomotives of British Railways', 12th Edition, published a couple of months ago.)

Regards,
John
 

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QUOTE (BRITHO @ 31 Dec 2007, 14:48) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>The only correctly named Standard 4-6-0 is 73082 Camelot, which I believe is currently on the Bluebell.

Finally - I wasn't aware that Royal Scot was part of the National collection.

Regards

Sorry Britho but I think you'll find 73082 is a Standard 5

As for these so called un-authentic locos, would you rather have them up and running in a state that may not quite be how they were outshopped, or sitting dead in a museum at best and rusting away more likely.

As for names never carried when they were working for BR or older companies, what do you make of Tornado? this loco never worked for BR and is named after an aircraft that was designed a long time after the end of steam. not very authentic for a steam locomotive.
 

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Andii - I think you mis-interpreted my last post, I am fully aware that Camelot is a standard 5, I was merely making a point.

As for the preserved modifications I really do prefer to see a loco working, even if not totally original, than sitting out of use (although I appreciate that not all preserved locos will ever work again).

Tornado is a bit of a red herring in this context as it does not and never has purported to be anything other than a replica (albeit of a non existent class.)

Regards
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
"It was BR Std 4 4-6-0 75029, but it name was dropped just over a year ago when a supporter of the NYMR bought it."

That's good news then
 

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QUOTE (BRITHO @ 2 Jan 2008, 12:58) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Andii - I think you mis-interpreted my last post, I am fully aware that Camelot is a standard 5, I was merely making a point.

Regards

Sorry I was seeing an extra 4 in there when I read your post.

As for Tornado, she will have genuine electric lamps on the front so she could be classed as an "extensive resteration"


Alot of people make a lot of fuss over locos not being original, Flying Scotsman getting the most flak. But I don't remember seeing anything but praise for the work done to Duke of Gloucester to fix the problems she had in BR ownership thus making her no longer original.
Why are there double standards when it comes to what is acceptable in preservation?
 
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