Overhead and Third Rail
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I always wanted to model the area where I was born, sadly this has been impossible unless I spent inordinate amounts of mony on buying kits of all the stock I would need. My early interest in railways (the early 70's) was spent watching the Kent Coast main line. I would need a fleet of emus (not the birds dbclass50) including 4 CEP, 4 BEP, 4 VEP, 2 HAP, MLV and a stores unit (ex 4 SUB vehicles), on top of this I would also need class o8/09, 33, and 47 (holiday traffic) as well as class 71 and 73 electrics.
To date I could get an 08/09, 73 and 47 from a variety of sources. The only emus available were the Hornby dublo (I wouldn't dare repaint them in all over blue) and the Triang one which would double as the stores unit.
If Heljan are prepared to produce Falcon, of which only one ever existed, and Bachmann appear to be prepared to test the water with the 4CEP is it really that unreasonable to expect someone to at least produce the class 71 (huge hint to the guys at Westwood).
On release I will be buying at least one blue grey 4CEP and if they then produce a 4 BEP I will at last have the 12 coach train of my dreams.
As to the track and conductor rails I only have to pop down the road and take a few photographs.
Think about it?
Regards
To date I could get an 08/09, 73 and 47 from a variety of sources. The only emus available were the Hornby dublo (I wouldn't dare repaint them in all over blue) and the Triang one which would double as the stores unit.
If Heljan are prepared to produce Falcon, of which only one ever existed, and Bachmann appear to be prepared to test the water with the 4CEP is it really that unreasonable to expect someone to at least produce the class 71 (huge hint to the guys at Westwood).
On release I will be buying at least one blue grey 4CEP and if they then produce a 4 BEP I will at last have the 12 coach train of my dreams.
As to the track and conductor rails I only have to pop down the road and take a few photographs.
Think about it?
Regards
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312 Posts
QUOTE (alastairq @ 21 Aug 2007, 17:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>don't forget to zig-zag the wires on straight runs, to avoid grooving the pan head
Have you ever tried to get catenary straight?
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I'm using sommerfeldt on my HOm and it is a bit fiddly but does look good when up but it certainly wouldn't be good for kids as it restricts access to trains and would be prone to damage.
When you consider how oversize the wires have to be anyway I would say the best course for a beginners system would be just masts and either some metal clips or just fishing line to tie the pantographs at a set height. See the pics without wires here,
http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...?showtopic=2592
My HOm went to it's first show with just the masts, see topic in international section, and noone commented on the lack of wires. I'm in the process of adding the wires now as I like seeing the pantographs work but the wires are only on the scenic section to allow access to stock in the fiddleyard. Ramps at either end pick up the pantograph.
I've used third rail on one layout and started using PECO components but decided they were too delicate for the intended users so I drilled holes in the ends of sleepers and knocked in small brass pins and soldered the rail to them. Third rail is slightly raised above the running rail and makes cleaning track difficult so the stronger soldered rail is a real bonus.
I can't see rtr third rail being moulded in being viable as there are too many variations around points etc also it would be very hard to mould in securely as it isn't retained on every sleeper like the running rails.
Even the PECO stuff isn't a scale model as it clips around the rail while the real stuff just sits on top of the insulator pots. Soldering the rail on the pins actually looks better than the PECO stuff in my opinion, is actually very quick to install and makes it easy to accomodate all the end ramps etc.
Have you ever tried to get catenary straight?
I'm using sommerfeldt on my HOm and it is a bit fiddly but does look good when up but it certainly wouldn't be good for kids as it restricts access to trains and would be prone to damage.
When you consider how oversize the wires have to be anyway I would say the best course for a beginners system would be just masts and either some metal clips or just fishing line to tie the pantographs at a set height. See the pics without wires here,
http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index...?showtopic=2592
My HOm went to it's first show with just the masts, see topic in international section, and noone commented on the lack of wires. I'm in the process of adding the wires now as I like seeing the pantographs work but the wires are only on the scenic section to allow access to stock in the fiddleyard. Ramps at either end pick up the pantograph.
I've used third rail on one layout and started using PECO components but decided they were too delicate for the intended users so I drilled holes in the ends of sleepers and knocked in small brass pins and soldered the rail to them. Third rail is slightly raised above the running rail and makes cleaning track difficult so the stronger soldered rail is a real bonus.
I can't see rtr third rail being moulded in being viable as there are too many variations around points etc also it would be very hard to mould in securely as it isn't retained on every sleeper like the running rails.
Even the PECO stuff isn't a scale model as it clips around the rail while the real stuff just sits on top of the insulator pots. Soldering the rail on the pins actually looks better than the PECO stuff in my opinion, is actually very quick to install and makes it easy to accomodate all the end ramps etc.
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Its not just about market and sales. the whole subject of catenery and third rail is fantastically complicated.
Just like the real railway the wires are subjected to heat variation which means to avoid them looking stupid and wobbly they have to be sprung-ju8st like the real ones. this is perfectly feasable in 4mm and a few manufacturers sell the pieces to do it but putting overheads onto a layout requires enormous planning and is not something that should be taken lightly. people often think that the real wires look very complicated but they fail to realise that there is a reason for that complication and those reasons also apply in 4mm.
I too would love a cheap overhead wires system but its crazy to think that your average trainset modeller is capable of installing them. there would be no end of broken pantographs heading for margate and barwell.
As for third rail. try to find me 2 junctions that have the same third rail arrangement!??
The number of variations is massive. mainly due to the fact that third rail while often seen as a modern image subject has been in place for a century now. the arrangement is altered to suit the junction in question. the idea of having it fixed to RTR track is just not practical.
These are great subjects to model. but my advice (and i give this as strongly as possible) is to wait untill you have mastered the basics of railway modelling and then try and get thiongs a bit finer. make sure you uinderstand track geometry and then try and do a third rail or overheads.
Third rail is very easy to do. if you understand it properly.
If anyone is seriously interested then spend £4 on the sommerfeld guide to overheads and their catalouge. read it from cover to cover. i learnt an awfull lot and i think you would too.
Peter
Just like the real railway the wires are subjected to heat variation which means to avoid them looking stupid and wobbly they have to be sprung-ju8st like the real ones. this is perfectly feasable in 4mm and a few manufacturers sell the pieces to do it but putting overheads onto a layout requires enormous planning and is not something that should be taken lightly. people often think that the real wires look very complicated but they fail to realise that there is a reason for that complication and those reasons also apply in 4mm.
I too would love a cheap overhead wires system but its crazy to think that your average trainset modeller is capable of installing them. there would be no end of broken pantographs heading for margate and barwell.
As for third rail. try to find me 2 junctions that have the same third rail arrangement!??
The number of variations is massive. mainly due to the fact that third rail while often seen as a modern image subject has been in place for a century now. the arrangement is altered to suit the junction in question. the idea of having it fixed to RTR track is just not practical.
These are great subjects to model. but my advice (and i give this as strongly as possible) is to wait untill you have mastered the basics of railway modelling and then try and get thiongs a bit finer. make sure you uinderstand track geometry and then try and do a third rail or overheads.
Third rail is very easy to do. if you understand it properly.
If anyone is seriously interested then spend £4 on the sommerfeld guide to overheads and their catalouge. read it from cover to cover. i learnt an awfull lot and i think you would too.
Peter
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4,554 Posts
QUOTE (PaulRhB @ 22 Aug 2007, 07:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...say the best course for a beginners system would be just masts and either some metal clips or just fishing line to tie the pantographs at a set height.....
....Even the PECO stuff isn't a scale model as it clips around the rail while the real stuff just sits on top of the insulator pots....
That was the beauty of the Triang Mk 2 system overhead system - a moulded plastic clip took the single wire and attached it to the linside mast - as I said in my previous post it was rather 'tramway'. But it worked, was reasonably robust, easy to modify or to remove if you needed to work on the layout.
Regarding the prototype third rail - there is a metal clip on top of the insulator in which the almost square conductor rail sits. I am almost certain that the bottom of the conductor rail is shaped in some way to ensure it cannot move out of the said clip once in place.
Regards,
John Webb
....Even the PECO stuff isn't a scale model as it clips around the rail while the real stuff just sits on top of the insulator pots....
That was the beauty of the Triang Mk 2 system overhead system - a moulded plastic clip took the single wire and attached it to the linside mast - as I said in my previous post it was rather 'tramway'. But it worked, was reasonably robust, easy to modify or to remove if you needed to work on the layout.
Regarding the prototype third rail - there is a metal clip on top of the insulator in which the almost square conductor rail sits. I am almost certain that the bottom of the conductor rail is shaped in some way to ensure it cannot move out of the said clip once in place.
Regards,
John Webb
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QUOTE (John Webb)Regarding the prototype third rail - there is a metal clip on top of the insulator in which the almost square conductor rail sits. I am almost certain that the bottom of the conductor rail is shaped in some way to ensure it cannot move out of the said clip once in place.
That is correct of the london underground is some stations. unfortunatly not of the southern main line.
That is correct of the london underground is some stations. unfortunatly not of the southern main line.
given that we 4mm scale modellers are quite content to use underscale trackwork, then perhaps it wouldn't be SO important what teh third rail was made of, or its height, as long as it gave roughly the right appearance?
as for pointwork.....third rail layout can be quite simple......complication in trackwork is un-necessary...we certainly seem to think so when buying our Peco points...even setrack!
I would suggest, if complicated pointwork is the name of the game, then the modeller concerned is quite likely to be making their own trackwork, therefore not the 'target' of my suggestions.
However, perhaps I have mislead folks.....I wasn't really considering any operational difficulties with 3rd rail.....just suggesting the idea that 3rd rail trackwork, easy-to-lay in the best peco streamline manner, might be a way of encouraging more folk to think ''Southern Electric''....thus improving sales of such as the 4-CEP-units...perhaps opening up a new area of modelling???
After all, as has been observed herein, there are few, if any, new DIESELS are left for Bachman or hornby or whoever to make?
plus, there IS a limit to the different types of DMU they might want to produce?
do not Southern electric sets cover a broader timespan than DMU's?
justa thought, that to open a new 'market', might need more than one nice model?
It might also need some nice 'infrastructure' to go with it?
as for pointwork.....third rail layout can be quite simple......complication in trackwork is un-necessary...we certainly seem to think so when buying our Peco points...even setrack!
I would suggest, if complicated pointwork is the name of the game, then the modeller concerned is quite likely to be making their own trackwork, therefore not the 'target' of my suggestions.
However, perhaps I have mislead folks.....I wasn't really considering any operational difficulties with 3rd rail.....just suggesting the idea that 3rd rail trackwork, easy-to-lay in the best peco streamline manner, might be a way of encouraging more folk to think ''Southern Electric''....thus improving sales of such as the 4-CEP-units...perhaps opening up a new area of modelling???
After all, as has been observed herein, there are few, if any, new DIESELS are left for Bachman or hornby or whoever to make?
plus, there IS a limit to the different types of DMU they might want to produce?
do not Southern electric sets cover a broader timespan than DMU's?
justa thought, that to open a new 'market', might need more than one nice model?
It might also need some nice 'infrastructure' to go with it?
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QUOTE (John Webb @ 22 Aug 2007, 11:20) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Regarding the prototype third rail - there is a metal clip on top of the insulator in which the almost square conductor rail sits. I am almost certain that the bottom of the conductor rail is shaped in some way to ensure it cannot move out of the said clip once in place.
The metal piece you mention is actually just a U shape bracket that the rail rests on, it's not actually fixed to it at all. If a train has a damaged shoe or dragging equipment it can knock the third rail off and then it can damage other pickup shoes.
I agree with the comments above about the non uniformity of third rail around pointwork and this also sometimes leads to units getting 'gapped' with all shoes in the gaps between ramps! Oops!
There are also gaps at intervals especially near access points to allow staff to safely cross tracks without the additional hazard of live rails.
I used to work a box on a Juice line but moved to a safer location where the trains still carry their own engines! I still make occasional trips into juice territory and you need to be especially careful where the rail is on the Cess side as you get off.
The sommerfeldt book is an excellent purchase.
I would still advocate brass pins as the easiest and most robust solution, if you want to represent those clips then some U brass channel on the top of each pin would work and you could use very short sections of plastic tube to represent the insulator pot.
Pics on here of different types of conductor rail.
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DG
The metal piece you mention is actually just a U shape bracket that the rail rests on, it's not actually fixed to it at all. If a train has a damaged shoe or dragging equipment it can knock the third rail off and then it can damage other pickup shoes.
I agree with the comments above about the non uniformity of third rail around pointwork and this also sometimes leads to units getting 'gapped' with all shoes in the gaps between ramps! Oops!
There are also gaps at intervals especially near access points to allow staff to safely cross tracks without the additional hazard of live rails.
I used to work a box on a Juice line but moved to a safer location where the trains still carry their own engines! I still make occasional trips into juice territory and you need to be especially careful where the rail is on the Cess side as you get off.
The sommerfeldt book is an excellent purchase.
I would still advocate brass pins as the easiest and most robust solution, if you want to represent those clips then some U brass channel on the top of each pin would work and you could use very short sections of plastic tube to represent the insulator pot.
Pics on here of different types of conductor rail.
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DG
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312 Posts
Here's a couple of pictures of third rail on a model I built, the first one has the Peco pots and the lower one has gthe soldered rail on brass pins. This was a simulator to test rules knowledge so the spacing of signals isn't prototypical.
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Fantastic. This is the future of railway modelling and if Hornby and Bachmann consider there is no future in steam because their customers won't be around in 20 years time the only option that Hornby and Bachmann have is to offer both third rail track and an overhead catenary system as this is the only way forward if Hornby and Bachmann wish to continue in business as model railway companies!
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Diesels simply won't exist in the future so this product offering is inevitable in the next 20 years as who is going to buy electric locos or build models with all electric operations if there is not the right looking power supply equipment available to complement such a loco.
Happy modelling
Gary
Diesels simply won't exist in the future so this product offering is inevitable in the next 20 years as who is going to buy electric locos or build models with all electric operations if there is not the right looking power supply equipment available to complement such a loco.
Happy modelling
Gary
further back, someone commented on spindly overhead in viewed poerrtions, but what of reliability in hidden parts?
I have 'done' overhead in the past..and for hidden portions, replaced the wire with [N gauge??] rail...very robust.
whilst the overhead does get in the way, re-railing is simpler with a re-railer?
and Doug is frantically conducting a missionary campaign to get us all hooked on Kadees...which operate hands-free...
but, there should be an NMRA, DOGA, EMGS, or whoever, strict rule, that overhead wires MEAN overhead pickup ONLY!
All future electric locos with pantographs, should, by law (EU law an' all!) be wired only to collect off overhead wires.
that should focus some minds?
I have 'done' overhead in the past..and for hidden portions, replaced the wire with [N gauge??] rail...very robust.
whilst the overhead does get in the way, re-railing is simpler with a re-railer?
and Doug is frantically conducting a missionary campaign to get us all hooked on Kadees...which operate hands-free...
but, there should be an NMRA, DOGA, EMGS, or whoever, strict rule, that overhead wires MEAN overhead pickup ONLY!
All future electric locos with pantographs, should, by law (EU law an' all!) be wired only to collect off overhead wires.
that should focus some minds?
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QUOTE (alastairq @ 24 Aug 2007, 17:28) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>but, there should be an NMRA, DOGA, EMGS, or whoever, strict rule, that overhead wires MEAN overhead pickup ONLY!
All future electric locos with pantographs, should, by law (EU law an' all!) be wired only to collect off overhead wires.
that should focus some minds?
Alastair - I hope your comments are tongue in cheek, otherwise ;
Don't agree - for example putting OHL equipment on the fiddle yards to St.Laurent would be an absolute pain - for a start the fiddle yard sections would no longer fit into the van & they would be too vunerable in transit. Putting the stock on & taking it off again (already a laborious task) for shows would add considerably to our setup time. And that's without the additional cost ! I have yet to see an exhibition layout that has OHL equipment in the fiddle yards.
If NMRA et all insist what you are suggestion then that means only live steam & live diesel for other forms of motive power.
All future electric locos with pantographs, should, by law (EU law an' all!) be wired only to collect off overhead wires.
that should focus some minds?
Alastair - I hope your comments are tongue in cheek, otherwise ;
Don't agree - for example putting OHL equipment on the fiddle yards to St.Laurent would be an absolute pain - for a start the fiddle yard sections would no longer fit into the van & they would be too vunerable in transit. Putting the stock on & taking it off again (already a laborious task) for shows would add considerably to our setup time. And that's without the additional cost ! I have yet to see an exhibition layout that has OHL equipment in the fiddle yards.
If NMRA et all insist what you are suggestion then that means only live steam & live diesel for other forms of motive power.
QUOTE If NMRA et all insist what you are suggestion then that means only live steam & live diesel for other forms of motive power...that WOULD place a moggy in the pigeon loft?
regarding the hidden sections thing, I WAS only commenting on my own experiences in sorting this problem...not suggesting the solution to be a panacea.
An exhibionist layout has moveability problems unheard of on one that stays put.
Moi?
Tongue in cheek?
as if!
regarding the hidden sections thing, I WAS only commenting on my own experiences in sorting this problem...not suggesting the solution to be a panacea.
An exhibionist layout has moveability problems unheard of on one that stays put.
Moi?
Tongue in cheek?
as if!
QUOTE (alastairq @ 24 Aug 2007, 18:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Moi?
Tongue in cheek?
as if!
And I always thought you were deadly serious........................................
Regards
Tongue in cheek?
as if!
And I always thought you were deadly serious........................................
Regards
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193 Posts
Dear All,
At all the model railway exhibitions I have seen in Vienna, the modern image layouts have overhead and don't seem to have too many problems, but I have not seen them setting up, so this may be an illusion. No doubt they have to take care in transporting these models, but they must have a solution that works.
It's just not an option to leave out the overhead when modelling the modern scene on the Continent, so why is is an issue for UK modellers? I think that as someone has already pointed out, this is the way forward and these polluting diesels will be replaced by nice clean electrics. We may even find branch line trains operated by battery locos that charge up in each terminus for the next run, as diesel becomes outlawed in the next few decades.
At all the model railway exhibitions I have seen in Vienna, the modern image layouts have overhead and don't seem to have too many problems, but I have not seen them setting up, so this may be an illusion. No doubt they have to take care in transporting these models, but they must have a solution that works.
It's just not an option to leave out the overhead when modelling the modern scene on the Continent, so why is is an issue for UK modellers? I think that as someone has already pointed out, this is the way forward and these polluting diesels will be replaced by nice clean electrics. We may even find branch line trains operated by battery locos that charge up in each terminus for the next run, as diesel becomes outlawed in the next few decades.
QUOTE I think that as someone has already pointed out, this is the way forward and these polluting diesels will be replaced by nice clean electrics.
I'll hold my hand up to that comment. In the future all railways will either be third rail or overhead electric and all locomotives will have switchable dual pick up arrangements similar to those of Eurostar locos. It is inevitable as there will be no other option. Therefore it is as inevitable as night follows day that Hornby or Bachmann or somebody else will offer a suitable model of such equipment and that no matter what the manufacturers believe right now at some point in the future they will offer a good range of electric motive power. They had just as well offer product now as then as it is inevitable that in the future model overhead and third rail will have similar sales to track. The only real thing missing right now is the electric equivalent of a Class 66 and once that class of prototype becomes a little clearer then it will be all guns blazing for the first to model it!
We are now at the equivalent of the 1960's when diesel laid ghost to steam. The next few years will see electric lay ghost to diesel. The strange thing though is that in the 1960's a British catenary system was available!
A third option of course that has been overlooked by all of us is that the next generation of electric locomotives may all have a rechargable power cell tender behind them! So we might well end up with something that almost resembles a tender loco with a large battery unit replacing what was the storage tank for coal and water.
Or we could even see the return of steam with water in the tenders heated by electric Hornby Live Steam style!
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Happy modelling
Gary
I'll hold my hand up to that comment. In the future all railways will either be third rail or overhead electric and all locomotives will have switchable dual pick up arrangements similar to those of Eurostar locos. It is inevitable as there will be no other option. Therefore it is as inevitable as night follows day that Hornby or Bachmann or somebody else will offer a suitable model of such equipment and that no matter what the manufacturers believe right now at some point in the future they will offer a good range of electric motive power. They had just as well offer product now as then as it is inevitable that in the future model overhead and third rail will have similar sales to track. The only real thing missing right now is the electric equivalent of a Class 66 and once that class of prototype becomes a little clearer then it will be all guns blazing for the first to model it!
We are now at the equivalent of the 1960's when diesel laid ghost to steam. The next few years will see electric lay ghost to diesel. The strange thing though is that in the 1960's a British catenary system was available!
A third option of course that has been overlooked by all of us is that the next generation of electric locomotives may all have a rechargable power cell tender behind them! So we might well end up with something that almost resembles a tender loco with a large battery unit replacing what was the storage tank for coal and water.
Or we could even see the return of steam with water in the tenders heated by electric Hornby Live Steam style!
Happy modelling
Gary
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QUOTE The next few years will see electric lay ghost to diesel.
I think that is unlikely. It will take longer than that just to deal with the line to Bristol never mind the rest of the west country and Wales. Are they even any plans to update the current HST fleet operating out of Paddington?
David
I think that is unlikely. It will take longer than that just to deal with the line to Bristol never mind the rest of the west country and Wales. Are they even any plans to update the current HST fleet operating out of Paddington?
David
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