Overhead and Third Rail

Moorings,..........

QUOTE jim s-w
1 Nov 2012, 21:55 The market's changed since then though.

QUOTE David Todd
27 Oct 2012, 08:08. An interesting thread from the past. (Thought I'd give the bun fight a miss).
Post #70

This is one of the reason's I recovered the thread from the bottom of the tank................have things changed that much in 5 years..?

Thank you for your points of views so far..........

QUOTE (91northern_electric014 @ 2 Nov 2012, 21:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I am basing my opinion on the production models I had a play with and a good poke around at my local model shop several weeks ago.

OK, it could be that the models you saw are identical to the photo you posted, However mine isn't, and all the pictures of individuals models I have seen on the internet match mine. You also cannot have inspected them too closely if you thought the pans were plastic...

And my idea of what the real ones should look like is based on having had a good climb around the roof sections of the AC loco Group's class 85 and 81 (which I took close up photos of), as well as having seen them in service regularly when they were still about.
If you wish to presume otherwise or beleive that I'm getting "confused" because I disagree with you then fine.

No, I don't presume on the basis that you disagree with me, I presume on the basis that your opinion does not match the model I have in front of me (eg plastic pan, shape and design of pan head)

I'm not going to get drawn into a silly argument about this so I will just say that I think we both have different ideas of what a Stone and Faively AMBR type pantograph should like like.

In fact we do not have different ideas, I am concentrating on the whole pantograph, which is very good and accurate - eg correct size and proportions, construction etc, whilst you appear to think that because of an incorrect detail which is so small, it is unlikely to be noticed unless you have actually climbed aboard a real loco, justifies you claiming it is a bad representation of the overall pan is really very unfair to this model, particularly as it may well be a minor compromise in order for it to work well on catenary - which it does, and since you have indicated a working pan is very desirable, what would you prefer - a non working pan that has this area spot on, or one that works as well as the Bachmann?

If you only want to completely disregard the overall meaning of my post (that the 85 is actually a very nice model overall with nothing so wrong it can't be easily fixed) and focus on "correcting" my opinion just because it's not the same as yours that's fine too.

No I don't want to, I do note that other than the pan you have made what seems to be fair comments on this model, but your opinion on the pan was so far from the truth it would have been unfair to the model to let it go unchallenged - particularly if someone may have had their purchase influenced by it. I still find it interseting that despite your knowledge of this pan, you have failed to spot its biggest failing (far more significant than the elbow issue), which others with lesser knowledge have picked up!

But it would be nice if we could try and be constructive rather than arumentative and focus more on the actual topic of the thread and that's whats in the title.
My opinion is that it would definitely help sales of models such as the 85 if a UK prototypical overhead system was on offer, working or not.

Actually now I am at home and can see it, that is a very nice picture of the 309, which is much appreciated and will be rather usefull since I am in the slow process of building a couple of units. Which would be the best pans to get for this model?

It would still be a step up from either having to drag your AC locos behind a diesel or put up with completely un-BR-like equipment. As it currently stands, Jim S-W is right, unfortunately: Scratch building is the only real option if you value realism. But I'd imagine the average class 85 or 350 buyer has neither the time, skill, or inclination to do that.

I absolutely agree. Indeed I have looked very hard in to the provision of a UK outline RTP OLE system and can thoroughly understand why there is an issue with a commercially viable mass produced system - it is extremely difficult to produce something at a reasonable cost that does not have too many compromises for the discerning modeller

So unless you are a serious AC sparkie lover, for most, these models could be a bit harder to justify buying than another diesel or kettle. Which is a shame because on merit they deserve to succeed.

Again agree (sadly in this case!)

Yes, the models I saw WERE identical to the picture I posted.
I saw a trio of pre-production examples at York Railfest several months ago. And then another trio at the model shop about 5/6 weeks ago. I didn't notice any differences in the pantographs between them. So if yours is different to to the one in the photo the I presume Bachmann must have made some modifications to them, and I'd quite like to see how.

And yes, I am aware of the inaccuracies with the head control linkage design, the upper arm control linkage and where it meets the pan base etc etc.... And if we want to get really picky there appear to have been at least 4 different variations of pickup head used over the course of their careers, so we could argue that a different one should be supplied with each different livery. Bachmann chose to model the final version and fit it to all of them (and it doesn't sit level at any height).
But as I said there is nothing so bad it can't be fixed with a bit of DIY tweaking.
So with all said and done, that still makes it probably the best pan on any UK outline locomotive (though let's face it, the competition isn't exactly fierce) as well as the best loco overall.
It's certainly not enough to put me off buying one (in fact I am saving up for an electric blue version right now and I can imagine others may follow!) and if anyone is daft enough to dismiss purchasing one because of one or two comments made on a forum, without having taken a good look at it in person first and deciding for themselves, then that's their loss.
Overall I think the loco brings something fresh and interesting to a rather stagnant corner of the market.

I do like live catenary because the sparks effect really adds to the experience. I also find it seems to provide more reliable current collection than track only. And as Gordon H said, if you've gone to the bother and expense of setting a system up in the first place, is it really that much more effort to energise it?
Likewise if you build a locomotive with a pantograph, is it so much more hassle to provide a wire and a switch for it?
I appreciate that certain compromises have to be made with the equipment to make it robust enough to stand up to being used and handled. And that applies to the train as much as the OLE. But plenty of European models prove that a decent compromise is achievable, and has been for some time now.
There is no such thing as a perfect model. Excellence is the best thats achievable, and for the most part the 85 is just that.
So I really hope is does well (despite a lack of OLE availability) and lays to rest the belief that electrics don't sell.
If it does it may just "spark" a sparky revival and new models of other classes might start to make (long overdue) appearances.
A finely detailed, properly painted class 90 with working head, tail and cab lights and the lovely silky smooth Bachmann can-motor would certainly get my attention!

QUOTE (91northern_electric014 @ 3 Nov 2012, 17:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>if you've gone to the bother and expense of setting a system up in the first place, is it really that much more effort to energise it?

You tell me



I would need overhead on this. It would almost double the storage space required, cost more to take to shows (bigger van) and add hours to the set up time.

Real overhead isnt supposed to spark and when it does its a blue/white light not an orange one. Be careful of promoting as a positive something that actually detracts from the realism you are trying to create.

Cheers

Jim

I have read this with a great deal of interest and how it has drifted in and out of a number of different views.

OHL Locomotives look better with their pans up really its just common sense.

Does it need to be powered, well no it doesn't and there is actually a school of thought that in fact you should not use it as a source of power.

Yes it does take longer to right derailments from under it, but really how often do you have derailments. OHL does not cause derailments, poor track laying does. I would rather spend 10 minutes more fixing a derailment were OHL is installed rather than having none in the appropriate scene.

Gotta say that as a european modeller I grew up with OHL, as a somewhat more serious modeller I have none on my layout, simply beacuse the locale I am modelling is non electrified (even today) but if it was I would have intalled it.

It is interesting to note that the best europen OHL is manufactured by a company that only does OHL.

QUOTE (john woodall @ 3 Nov 2012, 20:52) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I have read this with a great deal of interest and how it has drifted in and out of a number of different views.

OHL Locomotives look better with their pans up really its just common sense.

Does it need to be powered, well no it doesn't and there is actually a school of thought that in fact you should not use it as a source of power.

Yes it does take longer to right derailments from under it, but really how often do you have derailments. OHL does not cause derailments, poor track laying does. I would rather spend 10 minutes more fixing a derailment were OHL is installed rather than having none in the appropriate scene.

Gotta say that as a european modeller I grew up with OHL, as a somewhat more serious modeller I have none on my layout, simply beacuse the locale I am modelling is non electrified (even today) but if it was I would have intalled it.

It is interesting to note that the best europen OHL is manufactured by a company that only does OHL.

Here in the UK we are behind on OHL simply because only recently have we had quality RTR Electric Locomotives such as the Bachmann Type AL5 .

Yes I know Triang had a crack at it many years back but there is a better opportunity to get it right this time around. I for one would consider Catenary.

Well I think that to say the lack of a quality RTR electric locomotive has hindered the development of OHL is maybe a step to far. In real terms there isn't that much OHL in the UK compared to Europe so it is not really that common to see. Couple that with price point barrier, the utter dedication to Hornby and you are automatically at the mercy of an effective monopoly.

A review of european manufacturers stock would show that close on 50% of locomotives produced are electric ones, then steam then diesel. This explains why the europeans are so far advanced.

To a degree OHL can be compared to DCC. Look at how long the Europeans have had it, and look at the quality of the product. Perhaps working signals are the next big UK outline thing. How long have the europeans had them.

For way to long Hornby has produced for the toy market and are only now realising that the modellers market is worth more than the toy market. BUT, and here is the issue, Modelers are more discerning than toy train buyers and expect better quality product.

So when the latest edition of the German ICE starts running into London, will Hornby make an OO version that is at least as good as the european HO versions?

Most European manufacturers make H section masts, so as far as single track cantilevers are concerned, there are already UK outline masts. OK they are still not accurate in terms of not depicting the registration arms, but the continental stuff is also supposed to have registration arms, so these particular models turn out as being as accurate for UK as they are for European. Unfortunately for multitrack and other specialist parts the European items available tend to differ considerably to UK practice.

Making commercially viable OLE for the UK is fraught with problems, which may be why there is little available at present. First there is cost - even if you use the cheapest available, it is likely to cost you in the region of 2 to 3 times the cost of the track underneath it. So even a relatively modest layout is going to cost a significant amount to electrify.

Then there is accuracy - so far no one has mass produced anything as accurate as the models we expect to run under the wires, and this would no doubt jarr with a large number of peoples expectations. The accuracy of our locos comes from the refinements in injection moulded plastic. Unfortunately plastic is not sufficiently strong to cope well with a working system. Making accurate parts out of metal would push the costs through the roof - Dapol have gone the non-working plastic route for a more realistic look - although even so there are some compromises - The well known brands like Sommerfeldt, Viessmann, Vollmer etc have gone for a simpler, but operational metal option.

Then there is making it robust - to make it successful it has to appeal to the widest possible customer base. An acurate system would be very delicate and in inexperienced hands could be easily broken. You would then drown under the broken returns which would wipe out any profit you would make. So it is necessary to make the wires overscale, as well as other compromises.

Then there is making it easy to install - detailed instruction helps, but it is far more of a challenge installing it compared to laying track, particularly if you are not using setrack since it then becomes very difficult to plan the correct placing of masts without trial and error - ie if you would like to show the position of your OLE masts on your track plan before you construct it, there is a very good chance that in practice the masts will need to go in different places once the track is down and you end up putting the masts in to suit anyway. Making the masts adjustable helps - there is some limited adjustability on some of the masts out there, but making them fully adjustable would add to the cost and/or affect the realism.

So how do you go around making the right compromise between all of the above, becasue if you don't get it right it could be a commercial disaster - big risk!!!

I read the above and two thoughts spring to mind.

Is cost really that big a factor? It seems a lot hide behind cost (or is it instant gratification, I want it now and it will take 2 minutes to do it)

The second is throwing it into the two hard basket. Sommerfeldt catenary is not plug and play you actualy have to think about it. Old marklin was (with ugly stamped tin wires, but the new stuff also needs a measure of planning to install.

As for breakage, I have actually seen mode mast broken by cats that people knocking them over.

Is it a case of we will win the 100 meter gold medal without ever having done any training.

I have built layouts using different systems. Sommerfeldt even though the hardest to install does give the greatest satisfaction visually when installed.

QUOTE (jim s-w @ 3 Nov 2012, 18:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You tell me



I would need overhead on this. It would almost double the storage space required, cost more to take to shows (bigger van) and add hours to the set up time.

Real overhead isnt supposed to spark and when it does its a blue/white light not an orange one. Be careful of promoting as a positive something that actually detracts from the realism you are trying to create.

Cheers

Jim

Point taken.
But then is a layout of that size with 20 tracks going round really a "typical" layout?
I think not.
For such extreme set ups clearly a cosmetic system is more practical. But exhibition layouts make up a small percentage of all layouts and entirely different construction techniques all together are needed. Not just for OLE.
So using your layout as an argument against live wire in general is not really that relevant for the majority of us.

Real overhead isn't "supposed" to spark in the same sense that a diesel loco isn't "supposed" to clag......but clearly they do and the sight is quite entertaining.
I'm not sure if the metal of the wires and/or pan head make a difference to the sparks, but mine ARE blue/white! I've never observed them being orange before. Some times there are yellowy bits spitting out from around the spark, but the actual arcs are like the real ones.

Also with OLE, unlike third rail you generally get only sparks at fairly high speeds, when the dynamics have a greater effect on the pans ability to follow the wire - unless there is something badly wrong, or it is the first train on a very frosty morning - that can be pretty spectacular and can't do the pans carbons any good!!! . In other words whilst sparks might add a wow factor, the lack thereof does not necessarily detract from the realism, particularly if you are modelling low speed areas. That said, it is a pretty big wow factor in my book, such that not only am I keen on having live OLE, I am also adding a Relco unit to make sure the sparks when they happen are as big as possible!

There is one circumstance on OLE when there will always be a spark, even at low speed, and that is when a pan crosses a booster overlap whilst there is another train in section drawing power. The pan briefly causes a direct short circuit across the booster transformer whilst it is in contact with both wires, so there will be a spark when the pan exits the overlap on one wire. Nothing too spectacular since the actual potential difference between the two wires is not that high - we're not talking a short between live and earth, just wires with a few volts - relatively speaking! - between them.

QUOTE (jim s-w @ 3 Nov 2012, 18:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You tell me
No, it isn't.

QUOTE I would need overhead on this. It would almost double the storage space required, cost more to take to shows (bigger van) and add hours to the set up time.
These are issues that require consideration when the layout is being conceived. Certainly, storage and therefore transport volume is likely to be higher, but the impact on set-up time need not be excessive. Fiddle yard OHLE can be (almost) as crude as you like, and several methods exist to span FY baseboard joints quickly and easily.

QUOTE Real overhead isnt supposed to spark and when it does its a blue/white light not an orange one. Be careful of promoting as a positive something that actually detracts from the realism you are trying to create.
Sparking (of whatever colour) is not a selling point either for me either, I just like to know that the power is being supplied via the proper channel.