[Lancashire Fusilier]

In Iain Rice's White Metal Locobuilding book he mentions Cellulose paint and thinners as being different to Enamel.

I am wondering what these terms mean here in Australia as I am not familiar with Cellulose paint.

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (Lancashire Fusilier @ 24 Oct 2008, 16:28) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>In Iain Rice's White Metal Locobuilding book he mentions Cellulose paint and thinners as being different to Enamel.

I am wondering what these terms mean here in Australia as I am not familiar with Cellulose paint.

***Think automotive lacquers vs automotive enamels. Similar but quite different.

"Cellulose" use to be the high quality auto paint but is generally banned now in EU and discouraged in AU (except from specialist restorers who are still allowed to use it). Automotive lacquers are similar to cellulose in concept.

No big deal that is banned as for our purposes, newer 2 pack paint custom mixed is better for really serious loco painters - others use either enamels or synthetic acrylics. 2 pack is a very hard surface thats impervious to most thinners so it is perfect for using a lining pen & enamels on BUT it is only for those who understand its use - and those who religiously clean airbrushes after use, as left for a while its impossible to remove at all.

Richard

 

[upnick]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 24 Oct 2008, 09:59) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***Think automotive lacquers vs automotive enamels. Similar but quite different.

"Cellulose" use to be the high quality auto paint but is generally banned now in EU and discouraged in AU (except from specialist restorers who are still allowed to use it). Automotive lacquers are similar to cellulose in concept.

No big deal that is banned as for our purposes, newer 2 pack paint custom mixed is better for really serious loco painters - others use either enamels or synthetic acrylics. 2 pack is a very hard surface thats impervious to most thinners so it is perfect for using a lining pen & enamels on BUT it is only for those who understand its use - and those who religiously clean airbrushes after use, as left for a while its impossible to remove at all.

Richard

With the two paints i would definatley avoid cellulose even if a colour is only available in cellulose,

1. Its horrid to use especially in a confined space (garage etc )

2. More importantly if a good undercoat is not applied well or not at all the paint will most certainly attack plastic .... all looks well once its
finished painting but in the morning a melted loco body will result.

Far better either enamel applied over a good undercoat or low odour water based paints ...... i use polly scale they give great cover and of course clean up is good being water based.

A note on using any paint though make sure your using the right type of thinner in an airbrush as the other night amongst my water colour paint i had put a jar needing thinner adding water to it only resulted in a blocked airbrush

The plus point was i soaked all the components of the airbrush in white spirit overnight and now it sprays even better

 

[7113]

A word of caution - some 2 packs are extremely noxious. The golden rule of spraying has to be - ensure adequate ventilation/extraction.

Regards

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (upnick @ 24 Oct 2008, 18:16) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>With the two paints i would definatley avoid cellulose even if a colour is only available in cellulose,

1. Its horrid to use especially in a confined space (garage etc )

2. More importantly if a good undercoat is not applied well or not at all the paint will most certainly attack plastic .... all looks well once its
finished painting but in the morning a melted loco body will result.

Far better either enamel applied over a good undercoat or low odour water based paints ...... i use polly scale they give great cover and of course clean up is good being water based.

A note on using any paint though make sure your using the right type of thinner in an airbrush as the other night amongst my water colour paint i had put a jar needing thinner adding water to it only resulted in a blocked airbrush

The plus point was i soaked all the components of the airbrush in white spirit overnight and now it sprays even better

*** Nick, cellulose and 2 pack are fine on brass and metal loco bodies or coach bodies where it is used... in fact it is far superior in surface finish potential that it knocks enamels and acrylics for six... Its real blessing is the fact that nothing will harm it once its gone off so lining with a bow pen becomes a lot "safer" than when you are doing enamel on enamel.

However its not easy to use and as with anything the trick is to really learn about and understand the paints and their differences - for example, the modellers habit is to apply undercoat then wait for a long time before applying top coats - among other things with 2 pack the top coat should be applied immediately the undercoat has tacked (within 20 minutes of applying undercoat!). Imperfections are rubbed down in the top coat just like with a car!

Smells are all part of the game with painting - almost everything I use smells explosive .

Re white spirit, I most often spray with enamels as its easier, so I actually clean the airbrush then re-attach a bottle of white spirit to it and leave it there permanently between spray jobs - the constant presence of the white spirit in the airbrush stops any bit I missed while cleaning hardening too much so its always easy to clean off.

Poly S is fine for US prototypes... however I really still prefer enamels and the "harder surface finish" paints. I'm experimenting with a couple of the other brand acrylics now - they all seem to spray well, but a few things need to be done very differently to get the quality of finish I like.

Richard

 

[rossi]

2 pack isocyanate is deadly with out a air fed mask or at the very least a proper professional paint mask,also a proper extractor booth and screens .I use it on model car bodys and its great and very shiny and hard though a bit thick on smaller items ,I dont spray it for more than a few minutes at a time ..There is also the new water based auto paints ,also sometimes called 2 pack which uses a water based paint and a clear coat .The clear coat can be something like Halfords /Hycote car spray or 2 pack Iso .Great paint for modelling but delicate until its clear coated which acts as a bonding catalyst .You could clear coat it ,then apply any lining ,then satin coat it or whatever . www.hiroboy.com sells water based paint in the UK in small quantities but mainly racing car colours ., For GWR green for instance you would be on your own . I often used Scalecoat 1 which is a resin based paint .Uses Xylene as its thinner .I used to bake it on US brass and it came out a rich strong gloss which was fine for decaling .Basically it seems to me ,the smellier and more deadly it is ,the better it stays on .Enamel is probably best and safest unless you have the equipment,premises, and skills to use the others properly .

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (rossi @ 24 Oct 2008, 22:01) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I often used Scalecoat 1 which is a resin based paint .Uses Xylene as its thinner .I used to bake it on US brass and it came out a rich strong gloss which was fine for decaling .Basically it seems to me ,the smellier and more deadly it is ,the better it stays on .Enamel is probably best and safest unless you have the equipment,premises, and skills to use the others properly.

*** I really like Scalecoat paint - it has a superbly fine pigment and gives a superb finish - but I really dislike using xylene as I find it too hot a thinners in general. I always very successfully thin it with white spirit as the "cooler" nature of the white spirit as thinners gives exceptional flow - I do the same with floquil.

I have to agree 100% with your comment re the smellier they are, the better they stick - I find exactly the same!

Richard

 

[rossi]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 24 Oct 2008, 14:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>*** I really like Scalecoat paint - it has a superbly fine pigment and gives a superb finish - but I really dislike using xylene as I find it too hot a thinners in general. I always very successfully thin it with white spirit as the "cooler" nature of the white spirit as thinners gives exceptional flow - I do the same with floquil.

I have to agree 100% with your comment re the smellier they are, the better they stick - I find exactly the same!

Richard
I didnt realize you could use white spirit with Scalecoat 1 ,I will have to give it a try .
some possible cross reference on paint names .Cellulose in UK =Nitro in USA.
2 K isocyanante =Urethane=poly
enamel = lacquer
clear coat lacquer= ??????
emulsion =latex?
2 pack can mean several different paints ,such as 2 pack spray cans which are a dull base coat and a clear lacquer,usually on mettallics
2 pack waterbased car paints =base coat and clear coat, which can also be 2 pack in itself !! .The US also use poly as a name for some other paints but not sure what .Acrylic also has several meanings ,acrylic waterbased paint like Liquitex,Cryla and poly S (I think),and acrylic car paints like Halfords which are also Cellulose thinners compatable .It seems a real mine field out there and its important to get it right as often one lot can strip the other but not vice versa .
Enamel will go over cellulose but not the other way round .cellulose will attack plastic but if sprayed fairly dry may not .

Anyone care to give a concise list ???? Please feel free to contradict what I have written ,its not set in stone .I may well be wrong about some of it ..

 

[upnick]

*** Nick, cellulose and 2 pack are fine on brass and metal loco bodies or coach bodies where it is used... in fact it is far superior in surface finish potential that it knocks enamels and acrylics for six... Its real blessing is the fact that nothing will harm it once its gone off so lining with a bow pen becomes a lot "safer" than when you are doing enamel on enamel.

*** Richard ***

After posting my reply i did notice the original post asked about application on metal bodies/coaches though after seeing the results of cellulose on an expensive plastic body the advice i gave i hope helped in some way

as a word of caution for anyone doing plastic.

I would like to see the results of scale coat paint, and yes you know i do American outline so the pollyscale are selective in colours

 

[Lancashire Fusilier]

So to re-cap - at this stage I should probably explore enamel and acrylics as the basis of my loco painting at this stage unless I find a friend in the auto spraying game when I get to Melbourne then - can't see the missus being too fond of me whipping out the two pac in the garden shed in a rental property with two kids around anyway!

Thank for all the input. It is a great book by the way by Iain Rice - I assume all of his books would be good!