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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys


New to the forum, been a life long modeller of some sort through my life and subscribe to Hornby Mag which is brill….

I have searched the forum on painting track and not really found anything specific to my problems….

I am building finescale track using C+L track components. I have experimented with colour's and have decided on Phoenix Precision Paints Track colour (P977) as a base.

I have made one section of track where I pre sprayed the rails with a grey etch primer and then the P977 track colour, prior to threading the chairs on the rail. This did work but didn't feel ideal.

I have tried painting the track colour direct on to rails after construction and had issues where the paint doesn't cover the rail very well. Painting the etch primer is difficult by hand.


I would be grateful if anyone could shed some light on what they do and how this works for them

Many thx in anticipation
 

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QUOTE (class40 @ 2 Jul 2008, 21:48) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi guys


New to the forum, been a life long modeller of some sort through my life and subscribe to Hornby Mag which is brill&#8230;.

I have searched the forum on painting track and not really found anything specific to my problems&#8230;.

I am building finescale track using C+L track components. I have experimented with colour's and have decided on Phoenix Precision Paints Track colour (P977) as a base.

I have made one section of track where I pre sprayed the rails with a grey etch primer and then the P977 track colour, prior to threading the chairs on the rail. This did work but didn't feel ideal.

I have tried painting the track colour direct on to rails after construction and had issues where the paint doesn't cover the rail very well. Painting the etch primer is difficult by hand.


I would be grateful if anyone could shed some light on what they do and how this works for them

Many thx in anticipation

****Here's a repeat of a post I did some time ago - it covers your problem pretty well - BTW, I also use C&L track and hand made points so it works 100& with them.

This was written as part of a thread on ballasting, but covers your colouring of track pretty well. examples of the painted and ballasted track can be found in the gallery - look for Richard Johnsons railway or my later galleries.

sorry about the highlights on the word track - I had to look for my old post and the search engine adds these.....

Here it is:

------------------------------------------------

I lay my track on foam strip with a 60 degree shoulder to give the correct engineering "look" overall...

First, painting the track: This is done after its all laid with a gray automotive primer aerosol can - of any gray general purpose primer in a can will actually do!

(1) I spray the whole of the track and underlay with Gray aerosol undercoat.

(2) Stain # 1 - a turps based walnut wood stain ( 1 litre can) with equivalent of 2~3 cans of humbrol black and about the same of humbrol leather mixed in. Painted over the track & underlay with a "mop" type soft brush. Takes about 3 minutes a metre to do, no need for care or precision at all.

Let dry at least 24, preferably 48 hours

(3) Then paint rail sides and chairs with stain # 2 - ( 1 litre can) cedar wood stain with a little black and brown (say one can black, two of mid to dark brown + 4 or so of leather/rusty colour. I use a super cheap kids paintbrush as I want stiffish bristles to get this stain into the web and over the chairs. I paint rail sides and chair detail with a single stroke, and it takes only a few minutes to do a respectable length of track like this.

Natural "errors" make some seep onto the sleepers in places, but being largely a stain the look is "softened" and it looks very realistic compared to precise painting of rail and chairs that never looks good to me.

for both stains, keep well stirred or the paint tint settles out.

Using the stains lets the colour flow into the detail areas around chairs without giving a "painting by numbers" look to rail painting - its very natural and realistic that way.

CLEANUP: After each coat/stain: Initially wipe over the top of the track with the end grain of an offcut of timber/ pine block moistened with a little turps to get off most paint (this works really well) , then use a rubber for the little thats left...

OK: Ballasting.

Paint between sleepers and all over the underlay with very slightly thinned (say 2 parts glue, 1 part water). Use a small stiffish kids paintbrush - one that has those "too stiff for most things" synthetic bristles and is super cheap at discount stores).

take care around points of course, but with this method there is much less likelihood of glueing them up anyway!

Paint about 6" at a time, no more or the glue goes off. Spread more ballast than needed and tamp down with a finger. Vaccum off excess and recover for the next section.

Then simply run a stiff-ish brush along rail sides to get the odd bit of unwanted ballst and re-vacuum, and the jobs done.

If you do several slightly 6" sections at a time (about 5 min each) and then after final vaccuming go back and do the gaps, there are no visible joints in the ballasting and the job goes quick enough - with NO furstration and a very neat look!

Overall - undercoating then staining is an added step that for me, makes realism much better - and as to ballasting, applying it the above way takes time, but not so much more than the spreading/glueing/cleanup of the "eyedropper" method, and its far tidier in the end too! Certianly - frustration and "error" is much lower doing it the way suggested above!

Kindest Regards

Richard
DCCconcepts
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
QUOTE (class40 @ 2 Jul 2008, 13:48) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi guys


New to the forum, been a life long modeller of some sort through my life and subscribe to Hornby Mag which is brill&#8230;.

I have searched the forum on painting track and not really found anything specific to my problems&#8230;.

I am building finescale track using C+L track components. I have experimented with colour's and have decided on Phoenix Precision Paints Track colour (P977) as a base.

I have made one section of track where I pre sprayed the rails with a grey etch primer and then the P977 track colour, prior to threading the chairs on the rail. This did work but didn't feel ideal.

I have tried painting the track colour direct on to rails after construction and had issues where the paint doesn't cover the rail very well. Painting the etch primer is difficult by hand.


I would be grateful if anyone could shed some light on what they do and how this works for them

Many thx in anticipation

Thanks for your reply Richard

An interesting approach I have never heard of before....

I am using ply sleepers so not sure how this would work, but will experiment with your approach.

Thanks again for your advice

regards

Dave
 

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And don't forget to mix it up a bit. One of my pet gripes is when you get a really great modeller, with great attention to detail throughout the layout and excellent all round techniques - then you look at the track and it's all painted, beautifully, but with the same colour! I have a double track main line 25 metres from my house and even here I can see that the colour of one line is different to the other, because they were laid years apart. Little used sidings should probably be darker, neighbouring tracks slightly different, one redder, one darker.
I notice that the US mob that sell the 'Rusty Rails' paintbrush thing actually have four different paint shades they supply with it.
Cheers
6991
 

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QUOTE (6991 @ 3 Jul 2008, 18:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And don't forget to mix it up a bit. One of my pet gripes is when you get a really great modeller, with great attention to detail throughout the layout and excellent all round techniques - then you look at the track and it's all painted, beautifully, but with the same colour! I have a double track main line 25 metres from my house and even here I can see that the colour of one line is different to the other, because they were laid years apart. Little used sidings should probably be darker, neighbouring tracks slightly different, one redder, one darker.
I notice that the US mob that sell the 'Rusty Rails' paintbrush thing actually have four different paint shades they supply with it.
Cheers
6991

***Agreed 100% - one reason why I really like the staining rather than painting - it naturally varies and its easy to tweak the mix as the job progresses - and if needed to "overwash" areas to create differences... This'll be critical to me when I start finishing the Craven Lime company area... with significant differences in the transition between lime company sidings and loops and then the two mains, which will have different degrees of "lime wash" depending on up/down train direction out of the works....

To me, nothing looks worse than a few yards of perfectly painted rail and chairs - they look like..... perfectly painted rail and chairs, not part of a real railway!

Richard
DCCconcepts
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 3 Jul 2008, 13:55) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***Agreed 100% - one reason why I really like the staining rather than painting - it naturally varies and its easy to tweak the mix as the job progresses - and if needed to "overwash" areas to create differences... This'll be critical to me when I start finishing the Craven Lime company area... with significant differences in the transition between lime company sidings and loops and then the two mains, which will have different degrees of "lime wash" depending on up/down train direction out of the works....

To me, nothing looks worse than a few yards of perfectly painted rail and chairs - they look like..... perfectly painted rail and chairs, not part of a real railway!

Richard
DCCconcepts

thx guys

At this stage it's just a base colour, the problem at moment is getting paint to take to rails.

I intend to have a go with weathering powders or a wash of some kind to achieve some of the effects you are taking about

thanks again guys

Dave
 

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Im no expert on rail painting but if paint doesnt stick to something there are two main reasons
1. it needs a primer of some kind or
2. there is something on the material to be painted that prevents adhesion.

Silicon is the worse substance to paint on, lots of manufacturing processes use a fine mist silicone as a lubricant for example plastic moulding. If there are traces of a silicone on your rails due to the extrusion process you will need to clean it off ?? Again not being a hand track layer Im not sure of your process but Im guessing that solder flux is high up on the "stop paint sticking list"
So I guess Im suggesting the unpainted tack may need a clean of some type before painting ??? Others will no more than me I am sure.

John
RJR
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
QUOTE (class40 @ 3 Jul 2008, 15:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>thx guys

At this stage it's just a base colour, the problem at moment is getting paint to take to rails.

I intend to have a go with weathering powders or a wash of some kind to achieve some of the effects you are taking about

thanks again guys

Dave

Hiya John, thx for ya reply

I have used a burnishing brush and cleaned rail with a nutrilising rinse from C+L .

The only soldering is under the rail for dropper wires.

thx

Dave
 

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QUOTE (class40 @ 4 Jul 2008, 11:25) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hiya John, thx for ya reply

I have used a burnishing brush and cleaned rail with a nutrilising rinse from C+L .

The only soldering is under the rail for dropper wires.

thx

Dave

Hi Dave.

A couple of questions.

(1) What metal are the rails made of ?
(2) What type of paint are you trying to paint on the rails ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
QUOTE (TonyDaly @ 5 Jul 2008, 13:32) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Dave.

A couple of questions.

(1) What metal are the rails made of ?
(2) What type of paint are you trying to paint on the rails ?

Hi Tony

Thanks for your reply

Its nickel silver and I am using Phoenix Precision p977 enamel.

The problem seems one coat is not enough, which I guess this is not surprising, but then if a second is applied it just looks awful. Trying to find a consistant approach and colour so I can detail and weather at a later stage. May be I need to re think this process who knows.

The other thing I have noticed is the colour seems to darken over a period of time, does this happen or is it me lol...

thx guys

Dave
 

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I think you definitely need to use a metal primer first.

Richard suggested a grey automotive primer in a spray can

the metal of the rails is generally very smooth which makes the enamel paints run together rather than stick to the job

Plated metal is even more difficult to get paint to stick to
and you may need a special primer for Galvanized Metals which will stick to about anything

Let us Know how you get on

Regards Zmil
 

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Another possibility is to go on the Carrs/C&L site..

http://www.finescale.org.uk/show_page.php?...85ca6f7535489#c

using chemical ''blackeners'' can be .quite effective......especially as a bit of experimentation...cross-kitting if you like, can produce different colours..

also these can be diluted with water..to reduce/stop the chemical process......plus, I believe these blackeners do not hinder electrical conductivity.

also can be ''burnished'' which achieves an ''oily'' effect?

[worth doing to steam locomotive coupling/connecting rods??]
 

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QUOTE (class40 @ 6 Jul 2008, 10:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Tony

Thanks for your reply

Its nickel silver and I am using Phoenix Precision p977 enamel.

The problem seems one coat is not enough, which I guess this is not surprising, but then if a second is applied it just looks awful. Trying to find a consistant approach and colour so I can detail and weather at a later stage. May be I need to re think this process who knows.

The other thing I have noticed is the colour seems to darken over a period of time, does this happen or is it me lol...

thx guys

Dave

Hi Dave.
When you say it looks awful after 2 coats what do you mean?
If two coats aren't enough then try three.
Nickel silver is one of those metals which need a special primer. You have three choices here.
(1) Spray the tracks with a car primer.
(2) Use an etch primer which is acidic & smells a bit.
(3) A company named International produce a metal primer for such metals. I think it is called Special Metal primer. The beauty of it is that it is water based. The only drawbacjk is that it is White in colour but im sure you could change the colout with a little brown acrylic colour. It dries quickly & you can wash your brushes out with water.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
QUOTE (TonyDaly @ 6 Jul 2008, 16:36) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Dave.
When you say it looks awful after 2 coats what do you mean?
If two coats aren't enough then try three.
Nickel silver is one of those metals which need a special primer. You have three choices here.
(1) Spray the tracks with a car primer.
(2) Use an etch primer which is acidic & smells a bit.
(3) A company named International produce a metal primer for such metals. I think it is called Special Metal primer. The beauty of it is that it is water based. The only drawbacjk is that it is White in colour but im sure you could change the colout with a little brown acrylic colour. It dries quickly & you can wash your brushes out with water.


Thx for all your replies guys


certainly given me alot to think about

I will look into the company international u mentioned Tony, because the etch primer i have been using is celluose based, water base would be so much easier.

I like the idea of metal blacking, never thought about that. might just help with painting....

Tony, its difficult to describe awful. I think as every coat goes on, the colour becomes darker than I wanted at the same time as remaining patch, really strange. Could always start with a light colour i Guess.....

Need to experiment a little guys will come bk and let u know what happens...

thx again to all your contributions

Dave
 

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QUOTE (class40 @ 7 Jul 2008, 07:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thx for all your replies guys


certainly given me alot to think about

I will look into the company international u mentioned Tony, because the etch primer i have been using is celluose based, water base would be so much easier.

I like the idea of metal blacking, never thought about that. might just help with painting....

Tony, its difficult to describe awful. I think as every coat goes on, the colour becomes darker than I wanted at the same time as remaining patch, really strange. Could always start with a light colour i Guess.....

Need to experiment a little guys will come bk and let u know what happens...

thx again to all your contributions

Dave

***A few comments:

If U are using rail and not flex then it'll be easy to pre-treat.
Get a length of plastic pipe and 2 end caps from the plumbers supplies - say 50mm diameter x 1.1 metres.

fill with strong bathroom cleaner and hot water and put the rail in - soak and shake for a while to clean it. This will clean off the oils and lubricants used when the rail is rolled to shape.

rinse

replace the water etc with some white vinegar and shake / soak on and off for a couple of hours. this will slightly etch the surface to key if for the the paint.

rinse and dry.

spray with automotive primer - an etch primer won't be needed.

Blackening. Hard to get even without a lot of time spent working it in. Makes soldering a bugger too.... I'd paint.

Richard
DCCconcepts
 

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QUOTE (class40 @ 6 Jul 2008, 23:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thx for all your replies guys


certainly given me alot to think about

I will look into the company international u mentioned Tony, because the etch primer i have been using is celluose based, water base would be so much easier.

I like the idea of metal blacking, never thought about that. might just help with painting....

Tony, its difficult to describe awful. I think as every coat goes on, the colour becomes darker than I wanted at the same time as remaining patch, really strange. Could always start with a light colour i Guess.....

Need to experiment a little guys will come bk and let u know what happens...

thx again to all your contributions

Dave

Hi Dave.
What ever product you use be careful as products with celluose can melt plastic.
 

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And don't forget, paint the rails last. After the scenery (not the platforms though! eh Arethusa?), after the track is laid and secured, after the ballast, after the hills and trees, after everything is running nicely from an electrical perspective, the very last job - paint the rails.
6991
 
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