[neil_s_wood]

This is an advance announcement of a new Continental product being made by Maerklin. This will be available in two rail DC as well as three rail AC and will be of interest to those who are modelling French, Belgian or Dutch railways.

In 2007, the introduction of the TEE service in Europe will be celebrating its 50th anniversary. High quality, comfortable passenger trains linked the major metropolitan areas of the European Common Market (as it was called then) and Switzerland. These trains had first class cars only. The TEE trains quickly became the flagship trains and standard bearers of the participating railroads. They also became a synonym for comfortable travel by rail.

Märklin is setting up a very special monument in 1:87 scale to the TEE with the train "Etoile du Nord" / "North Star" on the route Paris - Brussels ( - Amsterdam). Rumors about this have been circulating in the European model railroad press for months: Märklin is dedicating expensive new tooling to this legendary train with two locomotives and a complete set of cars. Now the secret has been revealed and we are showing you the images from the new items brochure for 2007 and are giving you a first impression of the models with unique views direct from the CAD design computers.

The Belgian class 18 flagship locomotive has the same technical details and quality, but it does differ from the French locomotive in all of the prototypical details, such as only three pantographs. The Belgian locomotive also looks as it did around 1972, so that both locomotives can be used interchangeably at the head of the Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE car set.

Your authorized Märklin dealer will have prices for these new products and for all 2007 new items in February 2007.

Locomotives

The French State Railways (SNCF) class CC 40100 four-system locomotive represents a unit from the second production run as it looked around 1972. This super detailed model features a metal body with a centrally mounted, controlled C-Sine high-efficiency propulsion system and a decoder with a sound effects generator - with the mfx format. Four axles are powered through cardan shafts, and traction tires provide sufficient pulling power. The headlights and marker lights are maintenance-free LED's.

Separately applied grab irons, extra separately applied steps, and number boards are proof of a special love of detail. The detailed roof equipment and the prototypical different pantographs make this model eye catching even from above. The figure of a locomotive engineer in the front cab will find complete interior details at his seat. Extra details can be installed on the buffer beam at the front of the locomotive for use at the front of the train or in a display case. With a length of 253 mm / 9-15/16", this locomotive has a stately but very elegant look.

The Belgian class 18 flagship locomotive has the same technical details and quality, but it does differ from the French locomotive in all of the prototypical details, such as only three pantographs. The Belgian locomotive also looks as it did around 1972, so that both locomotives can be used interchangeably at the head of the Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE car set.

In the prototype both locomotives always ran from Paris to Brussels, so that it was quite possible to see both locomotives standing together in the station or in a railroad maintenance facility.

#39401 TEE Electric Locomotive

Prototype: French State Railways (SNCF) class CC 40100 express locomotive. Four-system locomotive for all of France, the Benelux countries, and Germany. Second production run; the locomotive looks as it did around 1972. Used in international TEE service.

Model: The locomotive has an mfx digital decoder, controlled C-Sine high-efficiency propulsion, and a sound effects generator. It has a powerful, compact design can motor with a flywheel, centrally mounted. 4 axles powered through cardan shafts. 4 traction tires. The headlights and marker lights are maintenance-free LED's, they will work in conventional operation, and can be controlled digitally. The marker lights, electric locomotive operating sounds, and the locomotive whistle, as well as the acceleration and braking delay can be controlled with a 6021 Control Unit or Märklin Systems. The locomotive has separately applied metal grab irons. It also has separately applied steps. The roof equipment is detailed, and the locomotive has different pantographs. The engineer's cabs have interior details; the front one has a figure of a locomotive engineer. Equipment parts are included that can be attached to the buffer beams. Length over the buffers 25.3 cm / 9-15/16".

Highlights:

Completely new tooling.
Metal construction.
Compact design C-Sine high-efficiency propulsion.
mfx decoder and sound functions included.
One-time series for the theme of "50 Years of the TEE".

The 41870 and 41871 car sets, and the 41873 car for lengthening the train make up the right TEE train for the 39401 locomotive. The TEE locomotive from Belgium is available as the motive power for the counter train.

The model program for the Paris-Brussles-Amsterdam TEE if being offered by TRIX for 2-rail DC.

#39402 TEE Electric Locomotive

Prototype: Belgian State Railways (SNCB / NMBS) class 18 express locomotive. Four-system locomotive for the Benelux countries, France, and Germany. The locomotive looks as it did when delivered in 1973. Used in international TEE service.

Model: The locomotive has an mfx digital decoder, controlled C-Sine high-efficiency propulsion, and a sound effects generator. It has a powerful, compact design can motor with a flywheel, centrally mounted. 4 axles powered through cardan shafts. 4 traction tires. The headlights and marker lights are maintenance-free LED's, they will work in conventional operation, and can be controlled digitally. The marker lights, electric locomotive operating sounds, and the locomotive whistle, as well as the acceleration and braking delay can be controlled with a 6021 Control Unit or Märklin Systems. The locomotive has separately applied metal grab irons. It also has separately applied steps. The roof equipment is detailed, and the locomotive has different pantographs. The engineer's cabs have interior details; the front one has a figure of a locomotive engineer. Equipment parts are included that can be attached to the buffer beams. Length over the buffers 25.3 cm / 9-15/16".

Highlights:

Completely new tooling.
Metal construction.
Compact design C-Sine high-efficiency propulsion.
mfx decoder and sound functions included.
One-time series for the theme of "50 Years of the TEE".

The 41870 and 41871 car sets, and the 41873 car for lengthening the train make up the right TEE train for the 39402 locomotive. The TEE locomotive from France is available as item no. 39401 for the counter train.

The model program for the Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE is being offered by TRIX for 2-rail DC.

Cars

The development department has also devoted very special attention to the Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE cars: The Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE design of the striking French Inox TEE cars has been reproduced. These cars differ in many details from the Mistral 69 successor design. Here too, the cars look as they did around 1972. Model railroad enthusiasts focused on the prototype will be particularly happy that the cars are being produced exactly to scale length for 1:87; this means the length over the buffers is 293 mm / 11-9/16" and for the generator car 248 mm / 9-13/16".

The Märklin enthusiasts in France and Belgium have been particularly outspoken in their desire that this family of cars be reproduced exactly to scale; we are very happy to have given full recognition to this wish. This means a few limitations however for the owners of smaller layouts, particularly in the area of curves with a radius of 360 mm / 14-3/16", if catenary masts or tunnel portals are too close to the track. After weighing the express wishes of the consumers, we felt this compromise was worth accepting.

Of course, this scale construction also demands the special love of detail so customary at Märklin: Realistically designed interior details with separately applied glass separation walls between the corridor and the compartments and many details in the bar and dining cars, and many separately applied details on the car bodies make looking at these models a visual trip of discovery. The compartment, bar, dining, and the generator cars are prototypical on the French State Railways (SNCF), and the open seating cars were on the roster of the Belgian State Railways (SNCB / NMBS).

#41870 Set with 4 Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE Express Train Passenger Cars

Prototype: INOX cars (made of stainless steel) for the Trans Europe Express between Paris, Brussels, and Amsterdam (Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE). 2 Belgian State Railways (SNCB / NMBS) type A8tuj open seating cars. French State Railways (SNCF) type A5rtuj dining car with a galley and type A2Dxj with a service compartment. All of the cars have 1st class seating. Built starting in 1964. Used in the trains "Oiseau Bleu" / "Blue Bird", "Etoile du Nord" / "North Store", "Brabant", and "Ile de France" / "Isle of France", etc.

Model: The cars are a scale reproduction of all of the dimensions without limitations. Minimum radius for operation is 360 mm / 14-3/16" (when there is an unobstructed loading gauge). The cars have underbody details specific to each car. The cars have type Y24 trucks. The cars have a special paint scheme to represent the INOX finish. The cars are ready for installation of the 7319 current-conducting couplings or 72020 current-conducting couplers, the 73405 pickup shoe / ground spring power feed set, and the 73400 lighting kit (2 per car). The 73407 marker lights can be installed prototypically at one end or the other of the cars. Total length over the buffers 113.0 cm / 44-1/2".

Highlights:

Full scale length.
Precise detailing.
Perfect INOX finish.
Multiple color interiors.
The complete car series is available.
One-time series for the theme "50 Years of the TEE".

DC wheel set per car 4 x 70 05 80.

These TEE cars have been designed to be scale without concessions to the clearance gauge. These models can run on curves with a radius of 360 mm / 14-3/16" or greater. Catenary masts, bridge railings or signals must be kept at an appropriate distance from the track however.

The 41871 car set and the 41872 open seating car can be added to the 41870 car set. The right locomotives for these cars are the 39401 (France) and 39402 (Belgium) models. The program of models for the Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE is being offered by TRIX for 2-rail DC.

#41871 Set with 3 Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE Express Train Passenger Cars

Prototype: INOX cars (made of stainless steel) for the Trans Europe Express between Paris, Brussels, and Amsterdam (Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE). 2 French State Railways (SNCF) type A8uj compartment cars and 1 type A3rtuj bar car. All of the cars have 1st class seating. Built starting in 1964. Used in the trains "Oiseau Bleu" / "Blue Bird", "Etoile du Nord" / "North Store", "Brabant", and "Ile de France" / "Isle of France", etc.

Model: The cars are a scale reproduction without limitations of all of the dimensions. Minimum radius for operation is 360 mm / 14-3/16" (when there is an unobstructed loading gauge). The cars have underbody details specific to each car. The cars have type Y24 trucks. The cars have a special paint scheme to represent the INOX finish. The cars are ready for installation of the 7319 current-conducting couplings or 72020 current-conducting couplers, the 73405 pickup shoe / ground spring power feed set, and the 73400 lighting kit (2 per car). The 73407 marker lights can be installed prototypically at one end or the other of the cars. Total length over the buffers 88.0 cm / 34-5/8".

Highlights:

Full scale length.
Precise detailing.
Perfect INOX finish.
Multiple color interiors.
The complete car series is available.
One-time series for the theme "50 Years of the TEE".

DC wheel set per car 4 x 70 05 80.

#41872 Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE Express Train Passenger Car

Prototype: : INOX car (made of stainless steel) for the Trans Europe Express between Paris, Brussels, and Amsterdam (Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam TEE). Belgian State Railways (SNCB / NMBS) type A8tuj open seating car. Car with 1st class seating. Built starting in 1964. Used in the trains "Oiseau Bleu" / "Blue Bird", "Etoile du Nord" / "North Store", "Brabant", and "Ile de France" / "Isle of France", etc.

Model: The cars are a scale reproduction of all of the dimensions without limitations. Minimum radius for operation is 360 mm / 14-3/16" (when there is an unobstructed loading gauge). The cars have underbody details specific to each car. The cars have type Y24 trucks. The cars have a special paint scheme to represent the INOX finish. The cars are ready for installation of the 7319 current-conducting couplings or 72020 current-conducting couplers, the 73405 pickup shoe / ground spring power feed set, and the 73400 lighting kit (2 per car). The 73407 marker lights can be installed prototypically at one end or the other of the cars. Total length over the buffers 113.0 cm / 44-1/2".

Highlights:

Full scale length.
Precise detailing.
Perfect INOX finish.
Multiple color interiors.
The complete car series is available.
One-time series for the theme "50 Years of the TEE".

DC wheel set per car 4 x 70 05 80.

These TEE cars have been designed to be scale without concessions to the clearance gauge. These models can run on curves with a radius of 360 mm / 14-3/16" or greater.

Certainly looks interesting.

 

[Ravenser]

Intersting to see they are making a big play of the fact the coaches are actually scale length

Given that the vehicles are only 11" long , I shudder to think what they'd have done faced with a Turbostar that scales out at an inch longer. Bachmann specifically label them as min second radius (17.5")

I think the interiors of the Hornby Gresleys and Pullmans are a notch up on this , and from memory the Hornby Pullmans have interior lighting ready installed , not a bolt on

It will be instructive to compare the prices for these coaches with the forthcoming Hornby Maunsells , and for that matter Bachmann's Mk1s and Mk2s, which are at least of equal standard.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE Intersting to see they are making a big play of the fact the coaches are actually scale length
At least they got their track to scale

QUOTE It will be instructive to compare the prices for these coaches with the forthcoming Hornby Maunsells , and for that matter Bachmann's Mk1s and Mk2s, which are at least of equal standard. Price wise Maerklin and other continental coaches are actually cheaper than the latest Hornby efforts.

 

[Ravenser]

Prices taken from Hattons:

Bachmann Mk1 £17
Bachmann Mk2a £17
Hornby Staniers £24
Hornby Gresleys (maroon) £24
Hornby Pullmans £27
Hornby Maunsells £21 (pre release advertisement)

Euro/sterling rate 1.52

Not sure what scale length Marklin or Roco coaches are retailing for, when subject to VAT ? The last time I tried equating French prices for SNCF coaches I recall it worked out somewhere around £25

I appreciate Marklin aren't the top German brand in some eyes, but I don't see any significant difference in quality between this stock and current generation tooling OO RTR coaching stock

 

[7113]

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 23 Jan 2007, 09:04) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Intersting to see they are making a big play of the fact the coaches are actually scale length

Given that the vehicles are only 11" long , I shudder to think what they'd have done faced with a Turbostar that scales out at an inch longer. Bachmann specifically label them as min second radius (17.5")

I think the interiors of the Hornby Gresleys and Pullmans are a notch up on this , and from memory the Hornby Pullmans have interior lighting ready installed , not a bolt on

It will be instructive to compare the prices for these coaches with the forthcoming Hornby Maunsells , and for that matter Bachmann's Mk1s and Mk2s, which are at least of equal standard.

I have to take issue with a couple of points raised here: I don't think it's fair to say that a Hornby coach is a "notch up" on the Marklin when the pictures posted by Neil are CAD mock ups, judgement should be reserved until the finished item is available for comparison.

Yes okay these coaches are only 11.5 inches long, this is actually quite short for European coaches, some are well over foot long, and do't forget - these have close coupling as standard, not any form of nasty hook and bar system.

Finally I don't think the price of this set will be particularily relevant as it appears that it is being made as a one off. However it is possible that other variants may make it in to the main catalogue in due course. I agree with Neil. - It looks interesting.

Regards

John

 

[Ravenser]

BRITHO:

I'm not intending any particular criticism of these recently announced models. As you say, no comment on the accuracy of the final models can usefully be made on the basis of a couple of 3/4 angle CAD views . I'm no great fan of the "I looked at some photos and I think it's wrong" school of criticism, and criticism off preproduction models, never mind CAD , is a mugs game.

The Paris Nord/Calais/Brussels-Amsterdam triangle is about the only bit of the Continental rail network with which I can claim any personal familiarity - but this stock is out of my personal experience. Corail stock , yes, the BB 25kV electrics , yes, Thalys yes (from the platform) , but these vehicles, no - a generation before I knew their patch. I don't have any SNCF references from which to check any basic dimensions , let alone matters like tumblehome, roof profile, exact shades of livery etc. And to be honest , I doubt if anyone on here, perhaps excepting Doug , does have

I'm assuming Maerklin aren't going to drop any subtle clangers with profiles of compound curves, number of ribs , exact window proportions etc,etc.

Given various comments on here about the percieved significant inferiority of current generation British OO to Continental HO models in general - Hornby having recently been described as a maker of "budget toy trains" compared to quality Continental ranges- , I was interested to see a detailed description of a newly tooled, presumably state of the art , prestige Continental HO model to see what extra it had got that was missing from the latest British OO.

To be quite honest , I'm struggling to find anything in Maerklin's specification that I wouldn't automatically expect to see in a newly tooled British model

I wouldn't expect such a stress on, and even apology for, the fact that the vehicles were actually made to the correct basic dimensions . If anyone released a new British outline model that wasn't scale length they'd be flamed to hell and back. Lynch mobs would roam the streets, their stand would be stormed at Warley , and prophets would declare that British prototype modelling had no future and would the last modeller to leave the country please turn out the lights.

My comment about a "notch up" related specifically to the interiors: I was thinking of the very fine detailed interiors to the Gresley buffets , and it is perhaps unfair to compare the CAD image here with a finished model

I notice only 4 out of 6 axles on the loco are driven . Recent British locomotives like the Hornby 50 and 31 have been criticised as not really up to international standards precisely because only 4 out of 6 axles are driven... Traction tyres have long been ridiculed as an example of the lower standard of British models - and here they are in a prestige special release from new tooling

The one major feature clearly over and above what I would expect from a new model in the British market is the sound decoder

From comments elsewhere Neil's standard for comparison with current British models seems to be the Hornby Gresleys. These are generally regarded as substantially the most flawed of the 6 or 7 groups of OO coaches released to current standards. The errors with the lower beading of the mid panels and the tumblehome have been discussed almost ad nausiam (see the Tony Wright/BRM DVD for chapter and verse)
They are also clearly the most expensive... . To use them as the benchmark for current British RTR is perhaps a little misleading

The only fault anyone can find with the Staniers is that people don't like the exact shade of the maroon on the first livery released.

Frankly if Maerklin perpetrated similar errors, or worse, on these models I doubt if any of us on here would be equipped to spot there was something wrong. It seems unfair to use this as evidence of any superiority on the part of Continental HO

The Bachmann Mk1s are generally accepted as faultless and the best of the current generation, and they can be had readily for £17-£18 from the discount boys

On paper these new Marklin models should be very attractive to anyone modelling SNCF Reseau Nord or SNCB or NS main line operations in the late 60s and 70s. However I don't see any reason to regard them as superior to Hornby's forthcoming Maunsells or their 56, or Bachmann's Mk1s and 66

And I will be quite surprised if the retail price for the Maerklin isn't much much more than the euros 26 - 32 being advertised for the British vehicles.

In view of the repeated comments that British modellers should pay a lot more for their models if they want them to be any good, I'm not clear what if anything we would be getting for the extra money

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 23 Jan 2007, 18:47) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>To be quite honest , I'm struggling to find anything in Maerklin's specification that I wouldn't automatically expect to see in a newly tooled British model

Pehaps the "C-Sine" motor ?

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 23 Jan 2007, 18:47) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I wouldn't expect such a stress on, and even apology for, the fact that the vehicles were actually made to the correct basic dimensions . If anyone released a new British outline model that wasn't scale length they'd be flamed to hell and back. Lynch mobs would roam the streets, their stand would be stormed at Warley , and prophets would declare that British prot

Nobody seems to mind the fact that most OO models are actually "narrow gauge"

QUOTE (Ravenser @ 23 Jan 2007, 18:47) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I notice only 4 out of 6 axles on the loco are driven . Recent British locomotives like the Hornby 50 and 31 have been criticised as not really up to international standards precisely because only 4 out of 6 axles are driven... Traction tyres have long been ridiculed as an example of the lower standard of British models - and here they are in a prestige special release from new tooling

4 or 6 axles driven, with or without traction tyres - the important thing is performance - helix's are common in europe so traction is very, very important - tight curves with a gradiant require excellent traction. It's OK for our North American counterparts - the sheer size of the locomotives make traction tyres redundant because of the weight of the locomotives.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE Traction tyres have long been ridiculed as an example of the lower standard of British models By whom and why? I have no problem with these if it makes the loco more efficient.

Someone else was on about traction tyres in another thread recently. I think the lack of these along with lack of weight would explain why Hornbys locos have such poor pulling power. The only reason that US outline gets away with not having them is because thay have the weight due to their larger size.

I just checked Modelbahn Kramm and Maerklin coaches go for about 33 Euros so a third less than Hornbys latest efforts.

To be completely honest I think the Maerklin coaches and Hornby's better efforts (coaches) are about the same but Hornby's are dearer and BRITHO has spotted some of their shortcomings.

QUOTE From comments elsewhere Neil's standard for comparison with current British models seems to be the Hornby Gresleys. These are generally regarded as substantially the most flawed of the 6 or 7 groups of OO coaches released to current standards. The errors with the lower beading of the mid panels and the tumblehome have been discussed almost ad nausiam (see the Tony Wright/BRM DVD for chapter and verse)
They are also clearly the most expensive... . To use them as the benchmark for current British RTR is perhaps a little misleading You've been watching the X files too much mate.

I bought the above mentioned coaches to go with my locos.

Simple as that.

I also said they were quite good.

They were compared with Brawa coaches, which are in a different quality and price bracket from Hornby or Maerklin to demonstrate what you get with an expensive coach. Doesn't really fit with your agenda though does it?

Maybe you should try to stick to the facts, your fiction writing isn't very good.

What you seem to be saying is that I should buy one of every coach that comes out and find the best one and review that. I don't think so.

If you want me to review any specific coach or loco send me one and I will. Otherwise you will have to make do with whatever I happen to be buying.

QUOTE In view of the repeated comments that British modellers should pay a lot more for their models if they want them to be any good, I'm not clear what if anything we would be getting for the extra money
As shown the coaches cost the same. It's the continental locos which are far better and cost more. At the end of the day you buy what suits you best. If you're happy with the current options then stick with them, just don't hold others back who want better.

Coming back to the subject matter, the French loco has grown on me a bit since yesterday. I'm kind of thinking about maybe getting this dependant on price. I don't have any French Rail models and would like to get some. I spent a lot of time interrailing when I was a teenager in France and it would be good to get something as a momento of that period.

(not that this train was running when I was a teenager)

 

[Ravenser]

Traction tyres are the best way of spreading muck on your rails. They also mean you can't pick up from the wheels concerned , meaning limited pick up and a greater chance of stalling over pointwork and at dirty spots , of which there will be more because of the muck they spread

They also have a nasty habit of working loose/oversize over time.

They have generally been seen in the UK as a wretched bodge to make up for the lack of a proper centre motor mechanism driving both bogies and preferably all axles, with masses of weight to ensure decent traction

I'm not pursuing a "pro Hornby" agenda - the Hornby Gresleys are the weakest of the high spec modern coach ranges , and Bachmann's Mk1s hold the crown - indeed Bachmann generally have the edge on Hornby in coaching stock. But I am reacting to the repeated assertions that even recent British outline OO is substantially inferior to the general run of Continental HO.

Maerklin's heavy stress on the fact that these models will actually have the correct basic dimensions as a special feature rings alarm bells. Surely that's basic?

How much of Maerklin's HO coaching stock is not scale length?

When British manufacturers have produced sub scale length coaches (eg the old Hornby Mk3s or their 1980s LNER coaches), they have been dismissed as beneath serious consideration.

But these vehicles have normally been shortened by omitting a complete bay. I've seen reference to continental manufacturuers "using a scale of 1:100 for the length". If they are really using one scale for vertical dimensions and a completely different scale for horizontal dimensions , every window, door, bay etc is going to be distorted and out of proportion . The whole side will be a mess

Hattons prices for the Bachmann Mk1s and the recently announced Hornby Maunsells equate to 26 euros and 32 euros - at or below Modelbahn Kramm's price for Maerklin .

But - and it's a huge but - for that price I expect a dimensionally accurate model. If the 33 euro Maerklins are not scale length , and have distorted sides , I'd not touch them with a bargepole . I'd not pay a fiver out of a clearance bin for such a vehicle (When my local shop were trying to clear out Hornby's "Short" Mk3s for under a tenner ahead of the scale ones, I'd zero interest)

So what is the score here ? Whixch makers' coaches are scale and whose are imaginative fiction?

And a further question arises. If inaccuracies like this are accepted without comment on coaches, what other dimensional errors are lurking elsewhere?

Continental manufacturers (Lima and Heljan) drop clangers with the best of them when it comes to British outline models (Tubbyduff anyone?). Are they doing better with their Continental stuff? And who are the good and bad boys in this respect?

In the context of these vehicles - are the Roco Corails accurate ? (And are they back on the market?). How accurate are models of other 60s mainline SNCF coaches?

 

[neil_s_wood]

There is a parralel debate on this issue on a German Rail forum so this issue is important for German outline modellers too. For some time Maerklin and Roco have been knocking out 1/100 coaches. Why? I don't know, someone said it's the length of the coaches.

I tend to avoid the 1/100 and ensure that what I am buying is 1/87. Roco are good enough to tell you what the scale of the coaches are so you can avoid the 1/100. I guess it comes down to the size of European layouts. I have some US 1/87 coachs and they couldn't turn corners on my old layout due to the size of the curves so I am guessing this compromise of scale was purely for functional reasons. Most Europeans don't have room for 1 metre radius curves but Yanks do and in order to run long scale length coaches on 360mm radius curves like Europeans do something has to give.

There was another thread on traction tyres within the last week and no-one really had any big issues with them then. They do come loose over time as you have said. My Hornby A4 looses it's tyres fairly frequently but it would struggle to operate without them. So I tolerate it. My Big Boy has no traction tyres but it weighs 1 and 1/2 kilos so it really doesn't need them. To be honest as Continental models don't have the weight problem that Hornby have I wouldn't have thought they needed them but I guess thats German efficiency for you. Continental models also tend to draw power from all wheels too. I reckon it's different priorities, the Germans like efficient locos that can go round tight curves fast without derailing whereas the yanks like exact scale models which are difficult to run in small spaces. The UK seems to be a bit of both.

As regards the Roco coaches, Roco do say what the scale of their coaches are so either their catalogue or website should say.

 

[Brian Considine]

Traction tyres are the best way of spreading muck on your rails. They also mean you can't pick up from the wheels concerned , meaning limited pick up and a greater chance of stalling over pointwork and at dirty spots , of which there will be more because of the muck they spread

This argument has been made before & to an extent is true - but then if your track & wheels start off clean you will not have a problem - when was the last time you saw a Fleischmann, Roco or Marklin factory layout having pick up problems & look at the conditions they operate in !


They also have a nasty habit of working loose/oversize over time.

Never had a problem here myself except for loco's that come in for repair that have been previously been badly serviced and/or contaminated.

They have generally been seen in the UK as a wretched bodge to make up for the lack of a proper centre motor mechanism driving both bogies and preferably all axles, with masses of weight to ensure decent traction

I would tend to agree here - but when this type of bogie was common in the UK the "continental" manufactures we still way ahead.

I'm not pursuing a "pro Hornby" agenda - the Hornby Gresleys are the weakest of the high spec modern coach ranges , and Bachmann's Mk1s hold the crown - indeed Bachmann generally have the edge on Hornby in coaching stock. But I am reacting to the repeated assertions that even recent British outline OO is substantially inferior to the general run of Continental HO.

No - but you are "banging the anti-continental drum" - I can hear it in Margate. Some continental (such as Brawa) is substantally superior to almost any RTR UK or continental - who exactly is making the "repeated assersions" - lets have some names then.


Maerklin's heavy stress on the fact that these models will actually have the correct basic dimensions as a special feature rings alarm bells. Surely that's basic?
How much of Maerklin's HO coaching stock is not scale length?

Quite a bit actually - & so is Fleischmann, some Roco (to name 3) - have you actually looked at the length of some continetal coaches ? - they can look ridiculas on some typical model railway curves, hence the 1 : 100 scale in length - model railways are alway a compromise somewhere along the line

I notice that you ignore the "underscale gauge/OO" issue - what a hypocrit


When British manufacturers have produced sub scale length coaches (eg the old Hornby Mk3s or their 1980s LNER coaches), they have been dismissed as beneath serious consideration.
But these vehicles have normally been shortened by omitting a complete bay. I've seen reference to continental manufacturuers "using a scale of 1:100 for the length". If they are really using one scale for vertical dimensions and a completely different scale for horizontal dimensions , every window, door, bay etc is going to be distorted and out of proportion . The whole side will be a mess

The same comments on compromise here apply as well.

Hattons prices for the Bachmann Mk1s and the recently announced Hornby Maunsells equate to 26 euros and 32 euros - at or below Modelbahn Kramm's price for Maerklin .

But - and it's a huge but - for that price I expect a dimensionally accurate model. If the 33 euro Maerklins are not scale length , and have distorted sides , I'd not touch them with a bargepole . I'd not pay a fiver out of a clearance bin for such a vehicle (When my local shop were trying to clear out Hornby's "Short" Mk3s for under a tenner ahead of the scale ones, I'd zero interest)

If you dont like it - don'y buy it - that seems quite simple to me. You (personally) must be very lucky to be able to run scale length trains on scale radius curves in & out of your scale length station(s).

So what is the score here ? Whixch makers' coaches are scale and whose are imaginative fiction?
And a further question arises. If inaccuracies like this are accepted without comment on coaches, what other dimensional errors are lurking elsewhere?

Answer is - a mixed bag - gives the rivet counters something to do sorting out which is which whilst those of us who have a life enjoy our models & play.


Continental manufacturers (Lima and Heljan) drop clangers with the best of them when it comes to British outline models (Tubbyduff anyone?). Are they doing better with their Continental stuff? And who are the good and bad boys in this respect?

Just have a look at some of the continental magazines - the reveiws are just if not more critical.


In the context of these vehicles - are the Roco Corails accurate ? (And are they back on the market?). How accurate are models of other 60s mainline SNCF coaches?

If you are so against continental stuff then why are you bothering with discussing it ?


As you are so concerned about accuracy just answer this one question - are your models "narrow gauge" or not ?

Now, onto something else - with the discussion regarding mechanisms/cost UK/continental. I would be the first to admit that the current generation UK are excellent models with good running qualities. My question is though "how long will they actually last ?"
It would be interesting to compare - obtain locomotives from the major manufactures - (good continental choice would be the DB 218 series) Marklin (Trix), Fleischmann, Roco, Piko & run them 24/7 back to back against their UK conterparts (open to suggestions here) & see how they compare - the results could be quite interseting.

 

[Dennis David]

Personally I would rather delete all posts after the first that don't directly relate to the models presented. Why are we even comparing them to Hornby? What's the benefit in that except for people to choose sides?

What do I care if Hornby coaches are better or worse if they are of completly different prototypes!!! That makes about as much sense as if I started talking about my TV set.

If Hornby made the same model then I think we can compare.

 

[Ravenser]

Some questions:

- How long did the locos and coaches stay in the condition shown - ie how wide is the time window around 1972?

- Can anyone confirm what was the full formation of Etoile du Nord at this period ? I assume from Maerklin's text that all vehicles used in the train will be produced by them

- 1972 was also the last year of operation of the Golden Arrow/Fleche d'Or through service, which shared the same route as Etoile du Nord south of Longneau. The Night Ferry through sleeper was still running (until 1980).

What were the formations of these trains on the Nord main line in 1972?
What locos and coaches are available to represent these services - particularly given the big holes left in French HO by the collapses of Jouef and Roco, and are they scale length ? I suspect the Wagon Lit stock used on the Night Ferry may not have been done - what near equivalents are available?

- When did Corail stock appear out of Paris Nord? 1975?? It's been done by Roco but how accurate and is it currently available?

- Was the Flandres -Riviera , (the Calais Maritime/Ventiglima motorail sleeper familiar to many British travellers by the boat train route in the 80s) running in 1972? Or was this a down market replacement for La Fleche D'Or ? What would the formation have been in the 70s? Stock available? My memory is that this used to be a great long caravan of a train

- What other TEE and Rapide services from Paris Nord used this coaching stock in the 70s?

Where this is coming from is that if you want to run this Maerklin stuff , logically you need a layout based on the classic Nord main line to Lille and the Benelux.

The dating suggests you could also run a few other famous trains well known to British enthusiasts , at least if you model the southern part of the route

A wayside station (I think the local stations survived pretty well in France at this period?) with a parade of authentic period rapides and TEEs passing through plus freight could make a very impressive evocation of the SNCF at the zenith of its "classic" mainline operation

A sort of SNCF Nord version of "Stoke Summit"

- Is suitable catenery available?
- Suitable Nord BV and salle de marchandises?

As to coaches, curves and compromises.

I'm currently heavily involved with a club project. This will feature scale length main line trains using scale length vehicles - one senior committee member made it abundantly clear the project would not be allowed to procede if this criteria were not met.

Being contemporary , a lot of the vehicles are long - 12" long. Minimum radius is 2' - 2'6, albeit in hidden areas where tracks are widely separated anyway. These radii can be successfully traversed by scale length vehicles fitted with long Kadees . In all visible areas curves are more generous , and track centres for double track are 50mm

There will be catenery in certain areas (and it will have to be hand built)

Total size of the layout is 16' x 12' (in OO)

I'm also building a modest sized layout at home, 8'6" long. Minimum radius 2'6" , mostly 3'. Again long vehicles (12") will be used extensively, all to scale length

Using a minimum radius of 3' in visible areas (necessary to avoid fouling on double track) and 2' off stage , it should be entirely possible to build an authentic layout based on a wayside location on the Nord main line c 1972 in the space of a loft using scale vehicles

With rather larger curves, a larger space and good authentic scenic work , a very imprssive exhibition layout could result - a "French Stoke" with potentially more visual and operational interest.

 

[Brian Considine]

Ravenser - what gauge track will be in use for your club project & your own project please ?

And what exactly is a "scale length train" as regards the number of coaches ?

And thirdly, why don't you answer any of the comments made in my last post - or don't you like your POV being weakened ?

I won't hold my breath for any answer(s).

 

[Ravenser]

1. Handbuilt OO , front of house. You are welcome to come and abuse it at shows when it goes on the circuit. Quite a lot of the stock is kit build - and more Bachmann than Hornby on the RTR side

For the home project, handbuilt OO. Comments on modelling of Iberian prototypes in HO invited

2. In this case the actual remark from the deputy chairman "If we can't run a scale length HST I'm off the project" I chose to interprete that as 2+7 (Cross Country / early WR) when we were designing the replacement project. Operation is limited to a shuttle service , but it can run, and fit in the station

3. I was trying to respect Dennis David's comments

- I thought I had answered the comment:

QUOTE You (personally) must be very lucky to be able to run scale length trains on scale radius curves in & out of your scale length station(s).. I didn't mention scale radii , merely something larger than 15"

- I have heard - whether correctly or not - that the German mags are very uncritical of German marques after one of them was successfully sues years ago for pointing out genuine inaccuracies in a model. This is a German marque

- I am not "anti-Continental" modelling . Just fed up of the continuous snipe of put downs of British modelling and assertions of Continental superiority, . I'm puzzled why Hornby gets dragged into threads on Brawa for the purposes of adverse comparison (not by me).

At least Steve Jones notorious "Iraqi Minister of Information" posting on electric nose was witty

On the issue of traction tyres , I understand that Roco don't fit em to stuff for the US market - and a long electric with a diecast body shouldn't be short of weight

 

[Brian Considine]

1. Handbuilt OO , front of house. [qYou are welcome to come and abuse it at shows when it goes on the circuit. Quite a lot of the stock is kit build - and more Bachmann than Hornby on the RTR side

What I meant was 16.5mm, 18mm or 18.83mm ! BTW - I do not "abuse" other peoples layouts - I know the effort that goes into building & operating them (we have an exhibition layout ourselves) - I especially appreciated nice handbuilt track (in any gauge.) Please let us know when/where it will be shown.

For the home project, handbuilt OO. Comments on modelling of Iberian prototypes in HO invited

Same comments regarding the actuall gauge - the Iberian project looks interestying though.


2. In this case the actual remark from the deputy chairman "If we can't run a scale length HST I'm off the project" I chose to interprete that as 2+7 (Cross Country / early WR) when we were designing the replacement project. Operation is limited to a shuttle service , but it can run, and fit in the station

That's a respectable length train.


3. I was trying to respect Dennis David's comments

I though digressing was a forum speciallity !

- I have heard - whether correctly or not - that the German mags are very uncritical of German marques after one of them was successfully sues years ago for pointing out genuine inaccuracies in a model. This is a German marque

- I am not "anti-Continental" modelling . Just fed up of the continuous snipe of put downs of British modelling and assertions of Continental superiority, . I'm puzzled why Hornby gets dragged into threads on Brawa for the purposes of adverse comparison (not by me).
At least Steve Jones notorious "Iraqi Minister of Information" posting on electric nose was witty
On the issue of traction tyres , I understand that Roco don't fit em to stuff for the US market - and a long electric with a diecast body shouldn't be short of weight

My reports on european mags must be different to yours !

Thanks for the comments returned - BTW what did you think of my idea to test locos' "back to back" ?

 

[7113]

QUOTE (dbclass50 @ 24 Jan 2007, 16:56) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>BTW what did you think of my idea to test locos' "back to back" ?

A nice idea...thinking about it - the 218, I think, is somewhere equivalent to the Class 47 in power terms(in reality that is).

However, as a model comparison i suspect the nearest UK loco size wise is going to be the 33 or 35, if using Hornby probably the 47.

Of course we could always have a DB class 50 against a BR 7MT??

Regards

John

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (BRITHO @ 24 Jan 2007, 17:16) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Of course we could always have a DB class 50 against a BR 7MT??

er - that's not very fair to the 7MT !

 

[Ravenser]

So what would you put up against the Bachmann 66 and Hornby 60 , "state of the art" as far as British OO large diesels are concerned. ?

For a 33 or 35 you'd be talking current Heljan - certainly state of the art and with no complaints made about the mechanism (bar the note that they're current hogs)

Unfortunately the lack of ANY British electric loco from new generation tooling is a standing debating point : quite why the manufactuuers think duplicating each other's state of the art model of every possible LMS 4-6-0 is more commercially attractive than 25kV stock beats me , and is a notable contrast to Continental Europe where such subjects are attractive....

However I have to say we probably couldn't buy one for the club layout because we don't have space to run even the "short" GNER set (loco + 8+DVT) that is sent to W. Yorkshire never mind other prototype 25kV Inter City formations, and the British D+E scene being what it is (and I wish it wasn't) , adverse comment would be passed by some if we ran compressed formations .

Electrics are restricted to commuter trains, and the club layout is set outside the SE precisely because the space available is too small to allow banks of 8 car formations. There's no way you can credibly fudge this one when modelling railways based on 4 car units operated in multiple. Hence we've gone outside the SE, where they have 3 car EMUs

Because there will be a fair amount of scenic work (read "structures") we are still about 3 years from exhibition, and as you may gather there's been a little history , with a couple of abortive and vetoed projects , so I don't want to be too specific about the clubs location. But we're not in the North of England or Scotland , so its likely the layout will do some shows in the South when its finished

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE (Dennis David @ 24 Jan 2007, 20:11) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Personally I would rather delete all posts after the first that don't directly relate to the models presented. Why are we even comparing them to Hornby? What's the benefit in that except for people to choose sides?

What do I care if Hornby coaches are better or worse if they are of completly different prototypes!!! That makes about as much sense as if I started talking about my TV set.

If Hornby made the same model then I think we can compare.
I think you should. I knew when the name Maerklin appeared that we would inevitably have some little englander appear to start the same old issues all over again.

QUOTE I'm puzzled why Hornby gets dragged into threads on Brawa for the purposes of adverse comparison (not by me). You obviously didn't read the review and if you did it has obviously gone over your head. I said the Hornby coach was good. I would really appreciate if you could stop making stuff up. The comparison was in response to enquiries by interested parties as to what extra do you get for your money when you buy a superior quality coach. I'm honestly baffled as to why you want to try and portray this as some kind of issue with Hornby. You yourself in this thread have asked what the extra is you are paying for with more expensive models and when you get that info you still complain. The lack of consistency in your posts leads me to believe that you are complaining for the sake of it rather than because of any real issue. Authenticity cannot be a big issue for you as you are trying to claim either as you accept an out of scale model when you buy any OO product.

How about an ICE3 against a Hornby GNER 225?