[TonyDaly]

Hello Everyone.

Hope your all having a good weekend.

Quick question.
Does anyone have a diagram or link of how to have Led indication on display panels with Peco/Seep point motors ?
Using Electrofrog points with switched frog poarity.

Thank you.

 

[butler-henderson]

QUOTE (TonyDaly @ 29 Jun 2008, 16:08) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Does anyone have a diagram or link of how to have Led indication on display panels with Peco/Seep point motors ?
Using Electrofrog points with switched frog poarity.

Assume you are using an accessory switch/connection on the point motors to switch the frog. You basically need another switch (ie with Peco instead of a PL13 use a PL15 or 2 PL13s although the latter may not be very reliable) wiring the outputs to the LEDs on the control panel. Only thing to be careful is to ensure that circuity is completly independent of the track and point motor power.

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (TonyDaly @ 29 Jun 2008, 23:08) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hello Everyone.

Hope your all having a good weekend.

Quick question.
Does anyone have a diagram or link of how to have Led indication on display panels with Peco/Seep point motors ?
Using Electrofrog points with switched frog poarity.

Thank you.

***There are two easy solutions. One is to use MASTERswitch which will let you use standard dpdt switches for the point motors and has spare contacts for frog switching + LED drive with memory built in (ex stock at DCC supplies and Bromsgrove as well as from DCCconcepts).

the other is to simply share the SPDT frog polarity contacts.

This can be done providing that the power supply is totally separated from the power supply that provides DCC/track power. An unused mobile phone charger or similar will do the job for the LEDs - no need for an expensive power supply. (these are usually about 200mA or more, and a bog standard red/yellow LED with a 600~1k resistor will be about 3~5mA

ie: one side of LED power direct to each LED, other side of the LED power supply can go to the centre contact (frog contact) and then from the left/right right contact to the respective LED.

this form of "sharing" is quite common - as long as only one side of the circuit is "shared" and the power supplies are totally independent, then no negative interaction will happen. (example - mains power wires through your house are often used as voice transmission wires for a plug in intercom or baby minder)

Richard
DCCconcepts

 

[TonyDaly]

QUOTE (butler-henderson @ 29 Jun 2008, 18:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Assume you are using an accessory switch/connection on the point motors to switch the frog. You basically need another switch (ie with Peco instead of a PL13 use a PL15 or 2 PL13s although the latter may not be very reliable) wiring the outputs to the LEDs on the control panel. Only thing to be careful is to ensure that circuity is completly independent of the track and point motor power.

Hi There.
Thank you for that. I will look into it.

 

[TonyDaly]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 30 Jun 2008, 04:30) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***There are two easy solutions. One is to use MASTERswitch which will let you use standard dpdt switches for the point motors and has spare contacts for frog switching + LED drive with memory built in (ex stock at DCC supplies and Bromsgrove as well as from DCCconcepts).

the other is to simply share the SPDT frog polarity contacts.

This can be done providing that the power supply is totally separated from the power supply that provides DCC/track power. An unused mobile phone charger or similar will do the job for the LEDs - no need for an expensive power supply. (these are usually about 200mA or more, and a bog standard red/yellow LED with a 600~1k resistor will be about 3~5mA

ie: one side of LED power direct to each LED, other side of the LED power supply can go to the centre contact (frog contact) and then from the left/right right contact to the respective LED.

this form of "sharing" is quite common - as long as only one side of the circuit is "shared" and the power supplies are totally independent, then no negative interaction will happen. (example - mains power wires through your house are often used as voice transmission wires for a plug in intercom or baby minder)

Richard
DCCconcepts

Hi Richard.
Some time ago I bought a couple of the Masterswitch packs just for experiment at some time. It seems that might be the way to go.

I was going to use the stud & probe type of point switching as its cheap & cheerful for the Peco & Seep type point motors I am using.

Without thinking too hard on a Monday morning,with the masterswitch I would need 3 wires back from each point motor to the control panel. I know one of them will be common to all point motors. All the other wiring can be done at the control panel( Led's etc)
Is this correct ?
How many point motors can each Masterswitch pack control ?

 

[Chinahand]

Hi Richard,

I've been contemplating doing this on my own points control panel but couldn't work out where and how to make the connections to the LEDs.

This is my present wiring diagram

Could I possibly prevail upon you to mark up this drawing to show how the connections to LEDs should be made.

Cheers,

Trevor

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (TonyDaly @ 30 Jun 2008, 17:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Richard.
Some time ago I bought a couple of the Masterswitch packs just for experiment at some time. It seems that might be the way to go.

I was going to use the stud & probe type of point switching as its cheap & cheerful for the Peco & Seep type point motors I am using.

Without thinking too hard on a Monday morning,with the masterswitch I would need 3 wires back from each point motor to the control panel. I know one of them will be common to all point motors. All the other wiring can be done at the control panel( Led's etc)
Is this correct ?
How many point motors can each Masterswitch pack control ?

HI

actually if you mount the MS down by the point, then the power wires can be short and between MS and the point motor only.
You should use a high power power supply - a laptop computer power supply can often be found for free and is usually 15~18v at appx 4 amps... if you get your hands on several then you canmount one close to each group of points and lessen high power/heavy wire use even more.

the control wires for MS can be very fine - the switching uses no power at all so alarm or telco wire is fine, and this also makes panel wiring much easier..... MS (now MS V2) is supplied with switches and red green panel LEDs too, so there's only wire needed to finish the job

I prefer to use one for each point personally, but each MS can control up to 2 points. there are 2 in a pack... Also... the LED outputs of the MS are able to handle more than one LED, so you could use them for both LED and signals if you wish....

Regards

Richard
DCCconcepts

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (Expat @ 30 Jun 2008, 21:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Richard,
I've been contemplating doing this on my own points control panel but couldn't work out where and how to make the connections to the LEDs. Could I possibly prevail upon you to mark up this drawing to show how the connections to LEDs should be made.

Cheers, Trevor

***Hi Trevor

here it is.... dead simple really. I emphasise thought that you must use a totally separate power supply (ie one only for the LEDs that has its own mains plug)

Richard

 

[TonyDaly]

Thank you Richard for the explanation.Doing it your way all I need back to the control panel is three thin wires from each point for the Dpdt switch ? Is that correct ?
Forgive me if I have it wrong but Monday is a slow day.lol

 

[Chinahand]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 30 Jun 2008, 18:34) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***Hi Trevor

here it is.... dead simple really. I emphasise thought that you must use a totally separate power supply (ie one only for the LEDs that has its own mains plug)

Richard

Thanks Richard.

Looking at your diagram am I right in thinking that one wire from each LED can simply be connected to the Main DCC Bus and all I need to run from each point is a wire from the Frog to the Power Supply ? Could this be done via a separate bus wire and, if so, what size wire for the bus ??

Sorry if I'm being dumb but, as Tony says, it is Monday.

Thanks again,

Trevor

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (Expat @ 30 Jun 2008, 23:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks Richard.

Looking at your diagram am I right in thinking that one wire from each LED can simply be connected to the Main DCC Bus and all I need to run from each point is a wire from the Frog to the Power Supply ? Could this be done via a separate bus wire and, if so, what size wire for the bus ??

Sorry if I'm being dumb but, as Tony says, it is Monday.

Thanks again,

Trevor

*** No, you are really missing the point totally.... it really must be Monday

Nothing has anything to do with the track bus at all!!!!!

The LEDS are 100% powered by connecting them to their own independent power supply with whatever lightish wire you want to use, and the wires to the frog and each rail simply share the switch for one part of the circuit.... none of this has anything at all to do with any bus / the track bus other than the shared switch.

the two totally independent circuits with totally independent power supplies - the track and the LEDs, will not affect each other as they only share this one thing and do not relate to each other as a completed circuit at any point....

Richard
DCCconcepts

 

[Richard Johnson]

QUOTE (TonyDaly @ 30 Jun 2008, 23:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thank you Richard for the explanation.Doing it your way all I need back to the control panel is three thin wires from each point for the Dpdt switch ? Is that correct ?
Forgive me if I have it wrong but Monday is a slow day.lol

***Yes Tony - to change the point, just 3 wires.
but... you may need an extra 3 if you are also switching frog polarity using the spare contacts on the DPDT switch though.....

Richard
DCCconcepts

 

[TonyDaly]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 30 Jun 2008, 17:07) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>***Yes Tony - to change the point, just 3 wires.
but... you may need an extra 3 if you are also switching frog polarity using the spare contacts on the DPDT switch though.....

Richard
DCCconcepts

Hi Richard.
Thank you for that. I am using the point motor micro switches to control frog polarity.As you will know those micro switches aren't great so I may end up using the MASTERswitch to change the frog polarity.
All the same i'm glad I got it right even though it is Monday.lol

 

[Richard Johnson]

*** Trevor - qualifying that previous answer - effectively you COULD attach the LED wires to the rails rather than the switch - the wire needed would only be light as all its carrying is the LED - a few mA only. the "control" wire to the LED remains the switch in that case anyway.... also light

Richard
DCCconcepts

 

[Chinahand]

QUOTE (Richard Johnson @ 30 Jun 2008, 20:14) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>*** Trevor - qualifying that previous answer - effectively you COULD attach the LED wires to the rails rather than the switch - the wire needed would only be light as all its carrying is the LED - a few mA only. the "control" wire to the LED remains the switch in that case anyway.... also light

Richard
DCCconcepts

Hi Richard,

Yep it's definitely Monday and now I'm even more confused.

Looking at your diagram, one terminal of each LED and a connection to the DCC bus both meet at terminals D and E respectively on the Seep Motor. It just seemed logical to me to bypass the motor and go straight to the DCC bus. i.e. A lot less wiring necessary.

Are you saying that I have to have a separate power supply for each point to make the circuit between the frog and the LEDs. ?? If this is the case then I think I will scratch that idea as I have 35 sets of points.

Cheers,

Trevor.

 

[Richard Johnson]

[quote name='Expat' date='1 Jul 2008, 01:02' post='56379']
Hi Richard,

Yep it's definitely Monday and now I'm even more confused.

Looking at your diagram, one terminal of each LED and a connection to the DCC bus both meet at terminals D and E respectively on the Seep Motor. It just seemed logical to me to bypass the motor and go straight to the DCC bus. i.e. A lot less wiring necessary.

Are you saying that I have to have a separate power supply for each point to make the circuit between the frog and the LEDs. ?? If this is the case then I think I will scratch that idea as I have 35 sets of points.

Cheers, Trevor.

No... I'm having all sort of trouble imagining why the wiring diagramme I posted has any ambiguity in it at all really..... the connection structure is clear.... and my re-qualifying post said that yes, the rails were effectively OK to use.

It may have been Monday but it was Midnight Monday here when I sent the last post so lets try again....

As far as the LEDs are concerned the SPDT switching action is the only important thing on the point motor.

Electricity wise its simply convenient for them to share the same terminals as the frog polarity wiring and as they only ever see one side of the track wiring at any time, they really don't interact with each other.... ie: with them sharing only one side of their respective circuits, the rails don't see the LED voltage and the LEDs don't see the track bus power at all.

So.... whether U use the rails or the switch terminals doesn't matter as long as the effective LED wiring and therefore the switching action matches the diagramme and therefore gets power to the LED that should be on - I thought my second post clearly qualified that for you.

Re the power supply, what I said was that the power supply for LEDs and the power supply for track must be totally different - not that each LED set had to have a different supply...... I re-stated that it was critical to use a totally different PS as I was concerned that possibly you had the idea that track power powered the LEDS when it actually doesn't (My concern came as you used the term BUS and asked about wire weight).

If you have an unused power supply from a mobile or similar, a couple of points/point motors + resistors and LEDs why not simply make up a quick test rig using the dieagramme supplied .... that'll settle your mind on the details of it quick enough I think.....

Regards

Richard

 

[Chinahand]

Hi Richard,

Thanks. It's all becoming clearer now. I was trying to get to grips with which parts of the wiring diagram for a single point could be made common for 35 sets of points. Obviously the DCC Bus could be common and the wire from the PS to the LEDs could also be common. It was just how the frog connections worked that was giving me a headache.

Problem resolved.

Thanks again,

Trevor

 

[Sol]

Now I am confused.
I can see the drawing by Expat ( Trevor) on Post #6 but cannot see Richard's drawing on post#8.

Richard, can you either re-post it or send it to me direct please? You have my e-mail.

 

[Chinahand]

QUOTE (Sol @ 2 Jul 2008, 02:13) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Now I am confused.
I can see the drawing by Expat ( Trevor) on Post #6 but cannot see Richard's drawing on post#8.

Richard, can you either re-post it or send it to me direct please? You have my e-mail.

Hi Sol,

It's attached as a pdf file so you need Adobe Reader to open it.

Cheers,

Trevor.

 

[Sol]

Trevor, I do have Adobe Reader but I do not see the attachemnet on Richards' post but I have seen on other topics, attachments but not this topic.