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Just another modeller
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QUOTE (TonyDaly @ 29 Jun 2008, 23:08) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hello Everyone.

Hope your all having a good weekend.

Quick question.
Does anyone have a diagram or link of how to have Led indication on display panels with Peco/Seep point motors ?
Using Electrofrog points with switched frog poarity.

Thank you.

***There are two easy solutions. One is to use MASTERswitch which will let you use standard dpdt switches for the point motors and has spare contacts for frog switching + LED drive with memory built in (ex stock at DCC supplies and Bromsgrove as well as from DCCconcepts).

the other is to simply share the SPDT frog polarity contacts.

This can be done providing that the power supply is totally separated from the power supply that provides DCC/track power. An unused mobile phone charger or similar will do the job for the LEDs - no need for an expensive power supply. (these are usually about 200mA or more, and a bog standard red/yellow LED with a 600~1k resistor will be about 3~5mA

ie: one side of LED power direct to each LED, other side of the LED power supply can go to the centre contact (frog contact) and then from the left/right right contact to the respective LED.

this form of "sharing" is quite common - as long as only one side of the circuit is "shared" and the power supplies are totally independent, then no negative interaction will happen. (example - mains power wires through your house are often used as voice transmission wires for a plug in intercom or baby minder)

Richard
DCCconcepts
 

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Just another modeller
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QUOTE (TonyDaly @ 30 Jun 2008, 17:33) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Richard.
Some time ago I bought a couple of the Masterswitch packs just for experiment at some time. It seems that might be the way to go.

I was going to use the stud & probe type of point switching as its cheap & cheerful for the Peco & Seep type point motors I am using.

Without thinking too hard on a Monday morning,with the masterswitch I would need 3 wires back from each point motor to the control panel. I know one of them will be common to all point motors. All the other wiring can be done at the control panel( Led's etc)
Is this correct ?
How many point motors can each Masterswitch pack control ?

HI

actually if you mount the MS down by the point, then the power wires can be short and between MS and the point motor only.
You should use a high power power supply - a laptop computer power supply can often be found for free and is usually 15~18v at appx 4 amps... if you get your hands on several then you canmount one close to each group of points and lessen high power/heavy wire use even more.

the control wires for MS can be very fine - the switching uses no power at all so alarm or telco wire is fine, and this also makes panel wiring much easier..... MS (now MS V2) is supplied with switches and red green panel LEDs too, so there's only wire needed to finish the job

I prefer to use one for each point personally, but each MS can control up to 2 points. there are 2 in a pack... Also... the LED outputs of the MS are able to handle more than one LED, so you could use them for both LED and signals if you wish....

Regards

Richard
DCCconcepts
 

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QUOTE (Expat @ 30 Jun 2008, 21:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Hi Richard,
I've been contemplating doing this on my own points control panel but couldn't work out where and how to make the connections to the LEDs. Could I possibly prevail upon you to mark up this drawing to show how the connections to LEDs should be made.

Cheers, Trevor

***Hi Trevor

here it is.... dead simple really. I emphasise thought that you must use a totally separate power supply (ie one only for the LEDs that has its own mains plug)

Richard
 

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QUOTE (Expat @ 30 Jun 2008, 23:29) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thanks Richard.

Looking at your diagram am I right in thinking that one wire from each LED can simply be connected to the Main DCC Bus and all I need to run from each point is a wire from the Frog to the Power Supply ? Could this be done via a separate bus wire and, if so, what size wire for the bus ??

Sorry if I'm being dumb but, as Tony says, it is Monday.

Thanks again,

Trevor

*** No, you are really missing the point totally.... it really must be Monday :)

Nothing has anything to do with the track bus at all!!!!!

The LEDS are 100% powered by connecting them to their own independent power supply with whatever lightish wire you want to use, and the wires to the frog and each rail simply share the switch for one part of the circuit.... none of this has anything at all to do with any bus / the track bus other than the shared switch.

the two totally independent circuits with totally independent power supplies - the track and the LEDs, will not affect each other as they only share this one thing and do not relate to each other as a completed circuit at any point....

Richard
DCCconcepts
 

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QUOTE (TonyDaly @ 30 Jun 2008, 23:26) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Thank you Richard for the explanation.Doing it your way all I need back to the control panel is three thin wires from each point for the Dpdt switch ? Is that correct ?
Forgive me if I have it wrong but Monday is a slow day.lol

***Yes Tony - to change the point, just 3 wires.
but... you may need an extra 3 if you are also switching frog polarity using the spare contacts on the DPDT switch though.....

Richard
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*** Trevor - qualifying that previous answer - effectively you COULD attach the LED wires to the rails rather than the switch - the wire needed would only be light as all its carrying is the LED - a few mA only. the "control" wire to the LED remains the switch in that case anyway.... also light

Richard
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[quote name='Expat' date='1 Jul 2008, 01:02' post='56379']
Hi Richard,

Yep it's definitely Monday and now I'm even more confused.

Looking at your diagram, one terminal of each LED and a connection to the DCC bus both meet at terminals D and E respectively on the Seep Motor. It just seemed logical to me to bypass the motor and go straight to the DCC bus. i.e. A lot less wiring necessary.

Are you saying that I have to have a separate power supply for each point to make the circuit between the frog and the LEDs. ?? If this is the case then I think I will scratch that idea as I have 35 sets of points.

Cheers, Trevor.

No... I'm having all sort of trouble imagining why the wiring diagramme I posted has any ambiguity in it at all really..... the connection structure is clear.... and my re-qualifying post said that yes, the rails were effectively OK to use.

It may have been Monday but it was Midnight Monday here when I sent the last post so lets try again....

As far as the LEDs are concerned the SPDT switching action is the only important thing on the point motor.

Electricity wise its simply convenient for them to share the same terminals as the frog polarity wiring and as they only ever see one side of the track wiring at any time, they really don't interact with each other.... ie: with them sharing only one side of their respective circuits, the rails don't see the LED voltage and the LEDs don't see the track bus power at all.

So.... whether U use the rails or the switch terminals doesn't matter as long as the effective LED wiring and therefore the switching action matches the diagramme and therefore gets power to the LED that should be on - I thought my second post clearly qualified that for you.

Re the power supply, what I said was that the power supply for LEDs and the power supply for track must be totally different - not that each LED set had to have a different supply...... I re-stated that it was critical to use a totally different PS as I was concerned that possibly you had the idea that track power powered the LEDS when it actually doesn't (My concern came as you used the term BUS and asked about wire weight).

If you have an unused power supply from a mobile or similar, a couple of points/point motors + resistors and LEDs why not simply make up a quick test rig using the dieagramme supplied .... that'll settle your mind on the details of it quick enough I think.....

Regards

Richard
 

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QUOTE (Expat @ 3 Jul 2008, 19:18) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yes. It seems to have been deleted.

RICHARD !!!!!!

***Arghhhh sorry - I must have done it when I cleaned up a few old attachments - I'll see if I can find it and repost it

Richard
 

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QUOTE (Sol @ 4 Jul 2008, 09:51) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Looking at Richard's circuit a bit more, if we assume the point as shown is straight through meaning green frog is joined to pink rail & on another point being set to the branch means gren frgog is joined to yellow rail, thus in having the LED power supply going to the frogs & being commoned to all points, in this situation of the 2 points as I descibe, I see a short circuit across the track : red rail - green frog - LED power common - green frog- yellow rail & the connections are via point motor accessory switch.

Am I wrong ?

***Sol, you are making my head hurt :)

The circuit as shown has nothing across the track. I will explore the situation with several points a bit more as it was a quick answer at its simplest and anything is possible.

To be honest my own preferred solution is not as per the circuit as I try to keep track and anything else totally separated to give maximum future stability and lowest possibility of later trouble shooting problems (such shared circuits are always OK when started, but if its to grow like topsy then one simple error on an LED circuit can close down the track bus!

Simplest answer - use the SPDT to switch a small relay to change the LEDs - a couple of dollars added but the potential for conflict is totally removed - no greater complexity in wiring needed for that totally bulletproof answer.

When the new "in concept stage" Manual + DCC + computer compatible IO board for total layout control via MASTERswitch is finished it'll all be irrelevant anyway :)

(no, not soon - but it will happen)

Richard
DCCconcepts

Richard
 
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