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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all,
I have been working on my 00 gauge (4mm) end to end layout with a Penzance station style terminus but with a twist.

However, I have been testing out all of my trains over the crossovers as seen in the image below to ensure it works. There is no fault with Hornby R8072 on the crossovers but for unknown reasons (and the reason why I thought I'd ask for advice on how to solve the problem), the Hornby R8073 right hand points on the crossovers (as noted by Faults) seem to fail each time you drive a train from one side of the track to the other.
I am able to work the left hand R8072 points on the crossovers itself but the R8073 ones seem to fail, especially as the layout is worked left hand running which means no train can access the southern platforms at all without pushing the loco across the points or turning the other controller on without causing an overload safety cutout.

Is there any solutions to this problem? I would like to get the crossovers in shape, albeit either by a scissors crossover (involving the same points but with curves and a right hand Hornby R615 diamond crossover) or another solution if possible.

I also bought some new sets of Hornby points to rectify the points failure but these have not worked either so am considering whether power supply is the main issue.

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Hi Is the power tracks indicated the only power input if so try putting some on the tracks on the left of the picture preceding the crossover as well. Jim PS. Welcome
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi Is the power tracks indicated the only power input if so try putting some on the tracks on the left of the picture preceding the crossover as well. Jim PS. Welcome
I have tried putting the power at the other end of the crossovers but unfortunately the same fault occurs. I will try again to see if it works.
I built a scissors crossover (using right hand points and a diamond crossing), that seems to work with both tracks and power tracks preceding the crossover as well but I thought I'd try doing them separately.

The power input is on the station throat as I thought it would be ideal for shunting movements. I'm quite new to crossovers and such so unfortunately not too wary of what works. I'll try it before the crossovers and not before the station now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I have since tried this option of making a Scissors crossover. It works on all lines except when you come from the left side of the layout, and want to continue into the northern platforms, it fails after a set of points. I have realised that the power output to the track isn't very powerful, but this may be down to an old Hornby controller I have plugged into it.
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Referring back to your track diagram in the original post #1, have you tried either R8073 point on its own to see if it works properly? It may be a faulty connection under the point?
Secondly I would put insulating fish plates (Hornby R920) at the joints where each pair of points joins together to ensure the two electrical feeds are kept clearly separate from each other. To cross a train over either crossover you will need to use both controllers on a similar setting.
I'd also agree with Pappa.B that the feed should be to the left of the two crossovers.

I don't know what period you are modelling, but for the last 3 or 4 decades two separate crossovers have been preferred to a scissors crossing - cheaper to install and maintain, but just needs a bit more space.
 

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This is all Hornby setrack i am unfamiliar with set up re- Hornby points i'm using Peco code 75 electrofrog points . You will find that most modellers will feed each individual rail not relying on rail joiners for power feeding . Have you just moved the power supply rather than add another where you had it previously can you reconnect the power so that you have in both places. I think the power needs to be fed at the toe end of the points if you only have one power clip try a bare wires to the rail were the clip fits in insuring it has a good contact with the rails and not each other . This only a temporary measure just to see if it a feed problem and not a faulty point. I am no expert but it is worth a try .
 

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OK Hornby points are all insul frog, so unlike electro frog there is not a switch in polarity, as such the power follows the way the points are switched, this is a problem for electros but you should not have these issues. The second version is more trouble so back to the first effort. Which way round you wire them does not make a difference until the power meets at the right 8073. I assume you have the feed say red on the upper rails and the black on the other one, and that these are not reversed between the two sides, I use coloured format here, I also put the power to the rails using Peco fishplates with wires attached, I just have this feeling that you have mixed them up somehow? so when you put the power from one to the other you get a short, in the olden days the circuit breaker would pop these days it simply stops working. The Peco rails are the same profile as the Hornby (Peco code 100) so are interchangeable.

So for the throat Red. you may have. Red
Black Black
Red Black
Black Red
 

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I suspect the problem might be the possibility that the two track controllers are from the same power source and thus may have a common; if so, the crossovers' difference is that the common rail is a different side. To test, if one controller is disconnected completely, does the problem go away?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
OK Hornby points are all insul frog, so unlike electro frog there is not a switch in polarity, as such the power follows the way the points are switched, this is a problem for electros but you should not have these issues. The second version is more trouble so back to the first effort. Which way round you wire them does not make a difference until the power meets at the right 8073. I assume you have the feed say red on the upper rails and the black on the other one, and that these are not reversed between the two sides, I use coloured format here, I also put the power to the rails using Peco fishplates with wires attached, I just have this feeling that you have mixed them up somehow? so when you put the power from one to the other you get a short, in the olden days the circuit breaker would pop these days it simply stops working. The Peco rails are the same profile as the Hornby (Peco code 100) so are interchangeable.

So for the throat Red. you may have. Red
Black Black
Red Black
Black Red
Are Peco Code 100 points wired differently to Hornby? I have tried the crossovers on one controller to see if it works across the crossovers and it seems to work. But when you put two controllers in, it fails. Could this be a controller fault or a point fault? I've heard that Peco track works better with anything so maybe there is a different wiring diagram on their points.
I suspect the problem might be the possibility that the two track controllers are from the same power source and thus may have a common; if so, the crossovers' difference is that the common rail is a different side. To test, if one controller is disconnected completely, does the problem go away?
Yeah, I have tried using one controller to ensure it definitely wasn't both controllers. It would seem that only one works for all points and crossovers, but when I do it as two controllers, it doesn't like it. It's the same power source but I have notice on one controller that the light does not slowly get brighter until the throttle (or what that circular thing is) is nearly three quarters of the way to max speed whereas the other controller has the light slowly getting brighter from the min speed. It might be where one of the controllers is old (or has faulty wiring) and may need a new one but didn't want to throw it out unless there are no options.

In regards, I don't know if it works either way doing it with R8072 points instead, as that may bring the same issue but I have done that before previously a few years ago and it worked fine. I'll see what I can try from the comments here.
 

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The simplest and potentially total solution would be to use a separate power source for each controller. The issue you raise about the indicator might be a fault or it might just be the controllers interacting. Do the indicators work as expected if the controllers are disconnected from the track?
 

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Are Peco Code 100 points wired differently to Hornby? I have tried the crossovers on one controller to see if it works across the crossovers and it seems to work. But when you put two controllers in, it fails. Could this be a controller fault or a point fault? ...
It is neither the points, nor the controllers at fault, which are performing as designed: but the limitations of the set track system, which is intended for children to run a train with a controller per track circuit.

The moment you put a crossover across two independently powered track circuits without modifying the points and paying attention to track power wiring, problems of the kind you describe emerge. There's no short cut, you have to understand what to do based on the 'why' of it, and a major help is a good book such as this:

There are now much better options readily available, flexible track systems from the likes of Peco of superior design to deal with connecting track circuits, and DCC control whereby you can drive all the traction from a single controller. Happy New Year!
 

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It is neither the points, nor the controllers at fault, which are performing as designed: but the limitations of the set track system, which is intended for children to run a train with a controller per track circuit.

The moment you put a crossover across two independently powered track circuits without modifying the points and paying attention to track power wiring, problems of the kind you describe emerge. There's no short cut, you have to understand what to do based on the 'why' of it, and a major help is a good book such as this:

There are now much better options readily available, flexible track systems from the likes of Peco of superior design to deal with connecting track circuits, and DCC control whereby you can drive all the traction from a single controller. Happy New Year!
Not sure that set track is the issue if it has insulfrogs which the quoted points have. If the controllers disconnect track supply when neutral then all should be fine when transferring between tracks but accepting that both tracks will be live to the controller in play.
 

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Not sure that set track is the issue if it has insulfrogs which the quoted points have. If the controllers disconnect track supply when neutral then all should be fine when transferring between tracks but accepting that both tracks will be live to the controller in play.
 

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Not sure that set track is the issue if it has insulfrogs which the quoted points have. If the controllers disconnect track supply when neutral then all should be fine when transferring between tracks but accepting that both tracks will be live to the controller in play.
If happy with that workaround to overcome a limitation inherent to set track design, that's fine. But there are much better very well proven alternatives.
 

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Hornby points are electrically the same as Peco Insulfrogs. They depend on the switch rail making an electrical contact with the stock rail and that is typically the source of faults hence why many electrofrog uses bond those rails together and make breaks in the switch rail before the frog. I would suggest a check is undertaken of the conductivity of each rail at the switch/stock rail junction and at the rail joiners using either a multimeter or low voltage bub and battery.
 
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