[Gary]

QUOTE In the light of the Adrian Hall email, what they (Hornby) didn't say could be more significant than what they did.

I think what Adrian Hall hasn't said is more significant than what he has said.

Bachmann are/were as vague about their new product when questioned so its simply in the nature of marketing and sales people to not answer questions, especially when they don't know the answer!

If I was a Hornby sales person I would say that you could fit a Hornby decoder to any Hornby loco. Why would I say anything else!

Any feedback from Hornby customers should be passed on to Hornby directly. I'm not too sure that Adrian Hall will be able to help us as well as Hornby!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE The show I attended yesterday a several of the dealers said they were taking up a Digitrax Agency. Sp some common sence is coming through at last.

And Digitrax will have to thank Hornby (and Bachmann) for this for giving DCC a wider audience in the UK. But of course they won't. I guess the dealers feel that some Hornby and Bachmann Digital customers may want to trade up eventually so it makes sense. If I was a Hornby dealer promoting digital I would want to offer a higher priced system that folk could trade up to also. And having a Digitrax agency might give that dealer more credibility in the local area if there are two dealers locally competing for Hornby Digital customers.

Its one thing offering a system buts its quite another selling it of course!

Digital is the future so good luck to any dealer offering a range of digital products.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

Why is DCC always such an emotive subject?

More so than any other railway modelling topic.

We now know that Adrian Hall is an agent for TCS and he is circulating an email about Hornby Digital.

And if a Hornby rep says that a Hornby decoder can be used with all Hornby locos then what is wrong with saying that? It is all down to the question asked.

I sense that there are a few people out there worried about the prospect of Hornby and Bachmann offering value for money digital systems to the Brits. Its about time the Brits had digital systems offered at American prices.

And as for those on a steep DCC learning curve surely the best thing to do is to purchase a budget Hornby or Bachmann digital system and try DCC for yourself! The only people who are anti Hornby and Bachmann as I can see haven't yet used the system!

I have now used both and for small layouts they work fine. And for small layouts budget systems are all you are likely to need.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE That may well be because it patently doesn't meet their requirements. Why waste your time with it when you know from it's spec's that it wont do what you need it to?

But that is entirely the point. It seems absolutely wrong to trumpet something that meets much higher requirements which may be patently well beyond the requirements of the average UK modeller. And an absolute waste of money.

How about somebody preparing a "standard" tick chart which helps railway modellers quantify their DCC needs with example questions such as:-

How many locos are you going to run at a time?

How many locos will you be putting decoders in?

Are you going to run locomotives with sound?

Are you going to run locomotives with lights?

Are you going to operate points and how many?

Are you going to operate signals and how many?

Will you require a hand held control unit?

...and so on.

Would those who trumpet systems that meet these higher requirements like to indicate exactly the scale of their operations so that we can all judge what the position is when looking at possibly rather more modest plans?

Its another one of those reality checks that we sometimes need.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE This has to seen as a great opportunity lost. Similar to the launch of live steam. It's a cul-de sack, possibly taken by marketing people rather than folks with sound knowledge. What ever, if the Select it's up to it, there will be great gaps in the market for established companies to exploit. These opportunities don't come often.

Now the Live Steam comment I do agree with. No USA outline Live Steam and no German Live Steam and given that Hornby have a world patent on this technology it seems odd that they have ignored the Americans and Germans who should be massive customers for this product. However they now have the distribution side sorted and the Lima aquisition to play with....

...maybe Walthers with be distributing Rivarossi Live Steam in 2007?

As for Hornby Digital there will be gaps in the market that will be exploited by others if Hornby have overlooked things. The same can be said for any digital product though.

Hornby have only just released their first digital product and so its early days. Its clearly something that adds to the Hornby portfolio of products. Bachmann seem to have done well with a very basic budget system.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

That chart deserves its own topic.

Scalextric Digital was released 2 years ago and 2 years on it is now a world leading product. I am not entirely convinced by the competition even dare I say it the yet to be released Ninco product for a number of reasons. The Scalextric set up is extremely robust and now offers a very wide range of accessories which add significantly to the play value. You can now get 3 car Scalextric Digital sets at Argos for £125!

In 2 year time this will be the case with the Hornby Digital range of products. And whats the betting that by that time Hornby will be offering a train set with 3 digital trains in!

Frank Martin's first move when he took the reigns at Hornby was to negotiate the Harry Potter deal. That should be plonked on the chart at the very beginning as that was the deal that started the Hornby revival.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

The only thing is the German locos cost around £2000 and are not able to be controlled from an independent controller. Clearly there is a market for the product even at £2000!

How would the Germans react to one offered at Hornby prices! (Germans =

)

That was the thinking behind my comment.

One issue with the UK is that no matter what those residing outside may believe we do live in a incredibly space restricted country and big DCC systems just are not going to sell ever in the sort of numbers needed to satisfy importers. Live Steam really does need a reasonable sized layout to get the best out of it especially if you hope to run more than one loco at a time. As far as space goes this country has had it!

Live Steam is fantastic in the right environment on a big layout and this is where the Americans, the Germans and the Australians come in as they have the space. Both for Live Steam and BIG DCC projects.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

Back to our TCS friend who started the ball rolling.

Has Adrian Hall actually programed a TCS decoder with a Select unit?

What he actually says in his email is that a TCS decoder when fitted to a Hornby loco was not read by a Select console. Has he tried to write to it with the Select console or is he attempting to read an address with the Select console that was already programmed into the decoder by another unit?

And in terms of the CV values and the Gaugemastwer unit it is not clear precisely how those values were written onto the Hornby decoder.

His email is not clear on this.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE I actually did wonder if that was Hornbys strategy.
I don't think so. My opinion is that they decided to do it themselves (by proxy) and it's a version 1.0. Anyone coming into an established market with their "version 1.0 take" on a standard is going to take a while to get it right.

It's not an uncommon problem. Sony don't seem to have quite as much backwards compatibility on the PS3 as many users would like.

David

Exactly. Even Microsoft when introducing new operating systems have backward compatibility issues with third parties with what should be a standard for a PC. Given that Hornby have come up with something that you can link to a PC and with a communications protocol it seems unlikely that Hornby have a deliberate strategy of producing a non standard device.

There are a small number of Model Rail Forum members that keep banging the same drum. There is no logic to this.

Have you not considered that the issue might be with the TCS decoder and the Gaugemaster Console?

Or even with Adrian Hall and in his excitement to check out the Hornby product he overlooked something?

How about giving it a break guys as the system literally has just been introduced and Hornby will do the right thing in the event of any matters arrising.

Surely the aim of this forum is to promote digital and DCC. How does this world seem right now to outsiders looking in?

Full of people with a self interest in promoting systems they own without any regard for what modellers actually need!

Is every DCC forum like this?

I honestly don't know but it is dissapointing if they are.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

Forgot to mention that if you read my review of the Hornby Digital Mixed Goods Train Set I did say that I had operated a loco with a non Hornby decoder fitted (Bachmann as it happens) and the loco did everything that the Hornby Select Console was capable of instructing it to do:-

Hornby Digital Mixed Goods Train Set Review

So really the idea that Hornby want to "lock people in" is a non starter.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

I was reminding readers that Hornby Digital is capable of writing to and reading from more than just a Hornby decoder. You know that it takes time to put a review together for a product that I have paid for and use. It very definitely is not a free lunch. It is there to inform.

This remark is innapropriate given the entirely neutral stance which is clearly not the case with the approach of some Model Rail Forum members.

QUOTE And what are you doing here Gary? Haven't you been doing this by plugging the Select?

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE We all advocate systems that we own or prefer. This is natural. I am up front about my preferences.

Well actually no I don't. As a neutral I advocate that a railway modeller purchases a system entirely appropriate to their needs and their comfort zone. For a very large number of railway modellers residing in Britain they need look no further than a budget system.

It is questionable whether it is worthwhile spending £200 or more on an overall package if all you are going to do is run 3 or 4 locos on a small layout. Model Rail Forum members will appreciate this.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE ... It appears that 'Set Locos' are wired in a non-NMRA 8-pin socket standard. I confirmed this by looking at Gary's extremely comprehensive review of the Mixed Goods Set. You can see that the Jinty has four jumper plugs ands sockets rather than an 8-pin pug and socket....

Maybe thats why I gave up removing the decoder!

It seems that the Hornby digital set locos are permanently hard wired. But then so are the Bachmann set locos. Is the typical Hornby customer for these sets going to be removing the decoders?

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

Common sense suggests that Budget systems are not fully featured. It does not require an experienced DCCer to tell us that! What I object to is experienced DCCers who say we must get a fully featured system for £££ from the outset or else we are wasting our money as we will inevitably trade up and so on and so forth. All this does is serve to confuse and put wanabee DCCers off DCC.

Experienced DCCers are absolutely hopeless salesmen I'm afraid and its no wonder we are still in the dinosuar age in the UK with they way they go about trying to explain things. There are examples within this very topic!

Why cannot DCCers simply suggest that railway modellers spend £50 and try out the DCC experience. If they don't like it then they have only lost £50 less whatever they get for their system on eBay. If they do like it then they take it a stage further. This to me is so blindingly obvious but not to DCCers apparently!

If you DCCer lot got your act together then the whole of Britain could be DCC in 5 years. But if you continue to perform as you have done to date there is absolutely no chance.

My DCC experiance is that I am a busy person wanting to set a layout up, plug in a console, put a few locos on the track, and have a bit of fun. I have absolutely no interest in the technology and how it works. As long as it does what I want it to do then I am very happy. From this perspective I have had 100% success to date with both the el cheapo Bachmann and Hornby systems and they are all I am ever likely to need.

When I observe how they have to faff about at Warley MRC with a high spec systems from a well know supplier and all the associated wiring and wiring plans and short circuits and blow outs and cut outs and so on and so forth then I am absolutely glad that I stick with the simple stuff with no wiring!

5 men for 8 weeks (2 evenings per week = total 240 man hours) and the layout is still not sorted!

I want to play trains and have instant gratification not faff about with all the spagetti underneath.

I guess I am the typical Hornby customer and do they know their customers!

Long may it continue!

OK. From a DCCers perspective Hornby (and Bachmann?) customers may be fools, idiots, bufoons, representative of neanderthal man or whatever however at least we know how to have fun!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE I think that's exactly what experienced DCC users want to suggest BUT if it turns out that the budget system chosen has limited or no compatibility with more advanced units, users who want to upgrade are forced to start all over again. Their "DCC on board" locomotives must be stripped and re chipped which will be a harder task than fitting a DCC module to a "DCC Ready" loco and the control unit is either "eBayed" or junked. Some may even consider that they have been conned. So who in all conscience could suggest such a route?

Again the DCCers are making assumptions that everybody who tries a budget digital console will want to upgrade to another system. Again with negative talk designed to put people off even trying DCC. I don't understand it. Some will upgrade. Most won't. But at least talk the opportunity to try DCC up!

I am very confident that the budget companies will introduce enhancements of their own systems in time so that is not an issue. Bachmann have since the launch of EZ-Command and no doubt Hornby will to (as they have done with Scalextric Digital). The fact is the Bachmann Sound Locomotives will work entirely under the instructions of the budget EZ-Command console as has been demonstrated by Bachmann. This will help to sell more budget digital consoles in the UK than anything else I would suggest.

Now given that the extremely experienced DCCers feel unable to recommend buying a budget system then why do you take those to task who have experience with budget systems for suggesting that budget systems are tried out by the beginners?

Again this makes no sense and defies logic.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

The reason I am not answering every point is that those who respond all seem to be repeating the same arguments over and over and no matter what is said about budget systems you will not move out of this groove. You are simply not prepared to accept the big picture as it applies to the UK and continue to make the negative observations about budget systems.

I agree with the remarks made that for the moment it is pointless continuing this discussion as there are two totally diverse positions. One that advocates a start up spend of a minimum of £200 and one that advocates spending around £80 or less.

The nature of a forum is that occasionally there will be discussions of this type. Wouldn't it be interesting if we were all in a room together!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

The remarks made above are unsupported and so care should be taken before making such remarks in a public forum.

Hornby state this about the Elite and Select units:-

QUOTE Designed to be NMRA compatible

The Hornby 'Elite' supports RailCom ID detection® Lenz Syztems

Both the 'Select' and 'Elite' support 14, 28 and 128 Speed steps

Xpress Net socket for layout development

A google search on DCC NMRA compatible reveals 13500 results.

A google search on DCC NMRA compliant reveals 500 results.

Compatible seems to be the more commonly used word within the industry by a big margin.

These are the facts.

Tony's Trains states that QUOTE Today's NMRA DCC Standard provides a framework for interoperability without precluding manufacturer innovation

Hornby have worked directly with Lenz since the inception of the Hornby project.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

To repeat Hornby say this about their Digital products:-

QUOTE Designed to be NMRA compatible

The Hornby 'Elite' supports RailCom ID detection® Lenz Syztems

Both the 'Select' and 'Elite' support 14, 28 and 128 Speed steps

Xpress Net socket for layout development

Can anybody say precisely why they consider Hornby Digital to not be designed to a "standard" when the above statement is made by Hornby?

And please don't refer to the email at the start of this topic. It has yet to be determined what the precise cause of that issue is and has nothing at all to do with the Hornby Digital user requirement specification.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

I offer balance given that there can be extreme views expressed at times. This can sometimes be perceived as biase. Remember I did not start this Hornby thread and I actually start very few Hornby threads!

QUOTE All MMaD said was "concerns about compatibility", he didn't say it was not designed to be compatible.

Would MMaD then please confirm that he does absolutely agree that Hornby have the intent based on the specification included with Hornby marketing material for Hornby Digital to be "compatible"?

This would clear up a lot of confusion around the language used. Forget 2/4 digit addressing and so on and so forth. This is not written into any standard. Just focus on compatibility.

A simple Yes or No answer is all that is required. A "Yes" answer will be accompanied by a big Mexican Wave!

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

QUOTE The Hornby Select is DCC COMPATIBLE in that it will run others decoders, for example (have tried it, and it will - TCS and NCE) but it does not COMPLY with the relevant standards.

Which standards and how does it not?

I asked the question earlier and nobody has yet come up with a specific answer. Why cannot somebody simply point to the specific NMRA standard that is not complied with.

I am not a techie but I do like to see the technical facts presented. At this time we keep getting a moral argument which for me and others like me is not an acceptable answer.

It suggests that there is not actually a technical answer to give.

This is a wholly unacceptable situation given the recent discussion.

How do neutral observers feel about this?

Confused?

Exactly.

Happy modelling
Gary