[neil_s_wood]

This is an interesting development. There has been a bit of discussion about the merits of cheap decoders recently. Maybe this is why they are so cheap.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE For some reason, yet again it's the UK market that's faffing around with el-cheapo kit - not the situation in mainland europe or the rest of the world. At the end of the day maybe the manufactures are only producing kit that the UK modeller is prepared to pay for !

Maybe thats one of the reasons that :
Price of 4-6-2 UK outline tender locomotive = approx' £100
Price of 4-6-2 european outline tender locomotive = approx' £200

Personally, I'd rather have a small fleet of Fleishmann/Roco/Trix etc locomotives than a large fleet of other stuff.
Right on the button Brian.

Couldn't have put it better. If your not going to pay the money what do you expect? As an example of how easy it is to install a decoder in a Continental loco. I have done a short review which I will post on my blog for comparitive purposes.

QUOTE I thought that the previous discussion was about Hornby decoders not the Select Controller.
The problems seem to be with the Select and the deocders if you take the trouble to read the opening item.

QUOTE >but I am a Systems Engineer and so I understand buses)
Then why don't you behave like an engineer, gather some evidence and present it objectively? At present you're coming across as "My Hornby, right or wrong".
I would echo Davids statement. From your previous posts all you seem to know is Hornby and seem to be on the defensive. It might be worth you doing some research and finding out a bit more.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE Yes but Neil IS rude.

Just honest and blunt about it. Thanks for your support there Dennis.

QUOTE The only people who are anti Hornby and Bachmann as I can see haven't yet used the system!
That may well be because it patently doesn't meet their requirements. Why waste your time with it when you know from it's spec's that it wont do what you need it to?

We have been all over this before in the hornby digital thread. I'm not anti, I'm indifferent but when some Hornbyists get carried away and start severly overstating it's case some reality has to be brought into check. Remember it's a budget system for beginners. Once you see what systems like Ecos and those of Zimo, Digitrax etc can do you will realise that.

QUOTE Neil, Beerhunter is new here and may not have read all that has been said. He also doesn't know you and you manner of dialogue.

Sorry Doug, the misunderstanding originated from the impression he was giving initially, which was that he was an expert.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE It seems absolutely wrong to trumpet something that meets much higher requirements which may be patently well beyond the requirements of the average UK modeller. And an absolute waste of money.

How about somebody preparing a "standard" tick chart which helps railway modellers quantify their DCC needs with example questions How can you possibly say that it is absolutely wrong to advocate a better system?

Who's to say that it is well beyond the requirements of the average UK modeller? If someone wants to better themselves with a better spec system and move out of the dark ages of model rail then good on them. Are you aware of the features some of these systems offer?

Some off them are very appropriate for the UK modeller like the shuttle feature which is ideal for terminus to terminus layouts.

Whether it is an absolute waste of money is completely subjective. Many people would think that buying an NMRA incompatible begginer set would be a waste of money as it will soon be dumped for something that can perform, expand and is compatible with other sets. It all comes down to your individual requirements.

The tick chart you are looking for by the way is at the top of the page (DCC Systems chart) and has been for some time.

QUOTE Unless Bachmann is a dramatic improvement, the truth is I will probably end up waiting until I can justify spending the extra money for a more advanced system like Lentz, Digitrax or Ecos and so make my choice "future proof". Wise choice. It's a big investment. You want to make the right one.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE One issue with the UK is that no matter what those residing outside may believe we do live in a incredibly space restricted country and big DCC systems just are not going to sell ever in the sort of numbers needed to satisfy importers
This comment seems to be from a sales perspective rather than a modellers. The other thing worth mentioning here is that many of us who are currently resident outside the UK are actually from the UK originally and will be moving back there at some point. We cannot be dismissed as unknowledgable foreigners. I've only been here for six years and have been back home four times since I came here. It doesn't really matter where you source your control unit from. European prices are outrageous, whether it's the UK or Germany.

As I've stated before having a higher spec DCC command stations are not all about having more trains or a bigger layout. They have additional functions such as the shuttle feature and automatic switching which would benefit smaller and terminus to terminus layouts. It's more features not just capacity that it gives you.

QUOTE Live Steam is fantastic in the right environment on a big layout and this is where the Americans, the Germans and the Australians come in as they have the space.
On another thread I mentioned that Hornbys way into Germanys rail market would be budget HO live steam. It is the only area that Hornby lead in Internationally in terms of model rail and it would be appealing to Germans. A live steam BR05 would go down very well. It would bring the Hornby brand name to the German modellers attention in a positive light. This formula would also work very well in the USA. Unfortunately they seem more interested in buying brands than doing anything with them.

Oh and what makes you think Germans have any more space than the UK. From my experience they certainly don't.

As regards the original post we really will have to wait for a while to see what, if any, issues arise with the Select and Hornby digital. This seems to have become another proxy battleground between defensive Hornbyists and DCC enthusiasts. At this point all we have to go on is that initial email. So maybe we should just wait and see.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE Unfortunately, a number of manufacturers have decided they Know Better,
and refuse to play nice. Hornby is one of these; Marklin is another.
Note that both try to lock the buyer into their "systems", which is no
longer a good marketing strategy. You either produce stuff that will
play nice with other mfr's stuff, or you risk going under

I actually did wonder if that was Hornbys strategy. They are in a similar position in the UK market to that of Maerklin in Germany e.g. dominant. Maerklin also have the benefit of having a different current (AC) and rail system so you are pretty much locked in with Maerklin which ever way you look at it. Maerklin do make DC stuff which is NRMA compatible so there is compromise.

I notice you didn't mention ESU or Zimo. They are compatible with most other systems too.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE Full of people with a self interest in promoting systems they own without any regard for what modellers actually need!
And what are you doing here Gary? Haven't you been doing this by plugging the Select?

QUOTE Forgot to mention that if you read my review of the Hornby Digital Mixed Goods Train Set I did say that I had operated a loco with a non Hornby decoder fitted (Bachmann as it happens) and the loco did everything that the Hornby Select Console was capable of instructing it to do:-

Hornby Digital Mixed Goods Train Set Review

QUOTE Have you not considered that the issue might be with the TCS decoder and the Gaugemaster Console? Aren't they NMRA compatible?

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE I'm not overhappy by that last remark. I was reminding readers that Hornby Digital is capable of writing to and reading from more than just a Hornby decoder. You know that it takes time to put a review together for a product that I have paid for and use. It very definitely is not a free lunch. The point I was making Gary was that the statement you made about other people could equally apply to yourself. We all advocate systems that we own or prefer. This is natural. I am up front about my preferences.

QUOTE This remark is innapropriate given the entirely neutral stance which is clearly not the case with the approach of some Model Rail Forum members

That was a joke wasn't it?

 

[neil_s_wood]

Well here we go again;

Well actually no I don't. As a neutral I advocate that a railway modeller purchases a system entirely appropriate to their needs and their comfort zone.

How can you even pretend to be neutral? You really are having a laugh. Remember that there are several people who use this forum each day and see the constant bigging up of Hornby by yourself. I am not saying you are being paid by them as you seem to be saying earlier but sometimes you do make it sound like you are.

See there you go again.

I guess I am the typical Hornby customer and do they know their customers!

Long may it continue!

And it"s not just me who thinks this

Sometimes I wonder exactly what your connection with Hornby is (or how many Hornby shares are in your family).

Maybe, just maybe all the people who have pointed out the weakness'es of "budget" systems are experienced DCC'ers.

Right on the button again Brian.

Experienced DCCers are absolutely hopeless salesmen I'm afraid and its no wonder we are still in the dinosuar age in the UK with they way they go about trying to explain things. There are examples within this very topic!

That's the thing Gary we're not salesmen, at least I'm not. I have no vested interest in people buying one system or another. I just answer questions as honestly as I can to try to help people.
I'm not selling anything and I have no shares in any model rail company.

My DCC experience is that I am a busy person wanting to set a layout up, plug in a console, put a few locos on the track, and have a bit of fun. I have absolutely no interest in the technology and how it works. As long as it does what I want it to do then I am very happy

That's me too Gary. I just want a good system with better features which will allow me to do more things.

[/quote]Now given that the extremely experienced DCCers feel unable to recommend buying a budget system then why do you take those to task who have experience with budget systems for suggesting that budget systems are tried out by the beginners?

Most of us do recommend budget systems. I would recommend the Roco MultiMaus or the Lenz or Digitrax equivalents as good places to start. Alll NMRA compatible. The Roco and Lenz can be used with many other systems.

Until you properly consider other relevant comments I've had it with this thread.

I know exactly how you feel. It's like banging your head off a wall with this one.

Like Brian I notice you have been very selective with the points you choose to answer. This tells me that your responses are more about defending Hornby than trying to find out more about other systems. Maybe you are happy with a basic beginner set but many other people may not be and it is unreasonable to try to hold them back what ever your agenda. Do try to read some of the points made by Brian, David MMaD and myself and have a think about them. It would benefit us all.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE i take it you stay with just the one make, be it Hornby or not

You don't have to unless you buy an incompatible system. The issue we have been discussing is that the Hornby system is getting reports of incompatibility. Bachmann, Roco, Lenz etc systems don't have this problem.

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE I think the best course of action is for this discussion to be parked until we get a full review by a mag or individual

How do others feel about this idea?

Please please please.