[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (the LMS man @ 19 Nov 2006, 09:05) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>the more I look into DCC, the bigger can of worms it becomes
I`ll wait for the market to get with it and also produce ALL locos with decoders ready fitted - don`t wish to wreck my new pride and joy as I have read on forums of people doing just that .

All these so called problems seem to stem from "entry level"/"budget" type systems. Talking to any serious DCC'er with a decent control unit & decoders will confirm this.

Again, the serious user does not want factory fitted decoders chosen by a bean counter. Please see other posts regarding ease of decoder fitting to locomotives such as Trix & Piko.

For some reason, yet again it's the UK market that's faffing around with el-cheapo kit - not the situation in mainland europe or the rest of the world. At the end of the day maybe the manufactures are only producing kit that the UK modeller is prepared to pay for !

Maybe thats one of the reasons that :
Price of 4-6-2 UK outline tender locomotive = approx' £100
Price of 4-6-2 european outline tender locomotive = approx' £200

Personally, I'd rather have a small fleet of Fleishmann/Roco/Trix etc locomotives than a large fleet of other stuff.

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Gary @ 21 Nov 2006, 13:08) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>No USA outline Live Steam and no German Live Steam
Happy modelling
Gary

Sorry Gary - sometimes I think you suffer from the same problems as many of our American friends - they see nothing outside their own country. The Germans had live HO steam quite a few years before Hornby - I saw it at Nurberg about five years ago. One of the locos was a small 0-6-0 !

Somewhere I have some details of the company that produce them.

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Gary @ 23 Nov 2006, 10:02) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>For a very large number of railway modellers residing in Britain they need look no further than a budget system.

It is questionable whether it is worthwhile spending £200 or more on an overall package if all you are going to do is run 3 or 4 locos on a small layout. Model Rail Forum members will appreciate this.

Happy modelling
Gary

In principal I agree - but why do the UK manufactures produce "budget" systems that are of no use (except to sell them on) if you want to upgrade later (I appreciate that at this stage we are not too certain regarding the abilities of the Setect & Elite).

For example - you buy a Lenz Compact & if you later upgrade to a LH100 or LH90 you can still use the compact controller as a slave, as indeed any decoders that you already have.

Likewise you can start with the Roco Locomause & the basic Fleiscmann ones & then use them as a slave for other systems.

The same almost certainly applies to systems from the likes of Digitrax & so on. BTW - if you want expensive have a look at ZTC !

Also, don't forget that DCC as we now know it (with the exception of Marklin & such like) is all based on Lenz anyway.

Another point - several friends of mine have small layouts with only a few locos - if they have your prefered budget priced DCC system it will work fine with their locos on their layout. But that would mean that we could not run each others locos on each others layouts. That's why the more experienced DCC'ers don't like some budget systems.

As far as I know the Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance (& yes, I know it's "badge engineered") as well as being a fully featured system is available for around £185.

Nothing wrong in principle with budget sets, but they are limited in performance & upgradability. As an aside I give out plenty of advice at exhibitions regarding DCC. So far the only people I have met who have gone "budget" have later told me they have regretted it !

To me trying to run decent/expensive locomotives with el-cheapo decoders/controllers is like putting remolds on your Beemer - they will do the job but you won't get the best out of the car.

As a matter of interest Gary - how long have you had "hands on" DCC experience ?

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Makemineadouble @ 23 Nov 2006, 12:42) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>----------------------------------
Since that time I have refrained from making any comment about the Hornby DIY DCC . My absence from this subject has not stopped others from taking up the sword. It seems that many folks are concerned about the potential damage the Hornby DIY DCC system could do to the hobby should it prove to be a Cul de Sack system.

Maybe, just maybe all the people who have pointed out the weakness'es of "budget" systems are experienced DCC'ers.

 

[Brian Considine]

Please disregard this post - I'll do another one !

 

[Brian Considine]

G.Common sense suggests that Budget systems are not fully featured. It does not require an experienced DCCer to tell us that! What I object to is experienced DCCers who say we must get a fully featured system for £££ from the outset or else we are wasting our money as we will inevitably trade up and so on and so forth. All this does is serve to confuse and put wanabee DCCers off DCC.
B.A lot of people do not understand that these systems are "budget". I have NEVER told anyone the MUST get a fully featured systems. Just pointed out the possible drawbacks.

G.Experienced DCCers are absolutely hopeless salesmen I'm afraid and its no wonder we are still in the dinosuar age in the UK with they way they go about trying to explain things. There are examples within this very topic!
B.Possibly so, but personally I am much better explaining things face to face.

G.Why cannot DCCers simply suggest that railway modellers spend £50 and try out the DCC experience. If they don't like it then they have only lost £50 less whatever they get for their system on eBay. If they do like it then they take it a stage further. This to me is so blindingly obvious but not to DCCers apparently! mad.gif
B.If you had read my last post correctly you would see that we do agree (for once) on this.

G.If you DCCer lot got your act together then the whole of Britain could be DCC in 5 years. But if you continue to perform as you have done to date there is absolutely no chance.
B.No control system will be standard - DCC or otherwise - we still have people using 3-rail DC & AC, as well as clockwork & of course now live steam. And FYI "us DCC lot" have pefectly good international standards & was progressing nicely before budget systems arrived & muddied the waters.

G.My DCC experiance is that I am a busy person wanting to set a layout up, plug in a console, put a few locos on the track, and have a bit of fun. I have absolutely no interest in the technology and how it works. As long as it does what I want it to do then I am very happy. From this perspective I have had 100% success to date with both the el cheapo Bachmann and Hornby systems and they are all I am ever likely to need.
B.Just as I thought - no hands on experience of fully featured systems.

G.When I observe how they have to faff about at Warley MRC with a high spec systems from a well know supplier and all the associated wiring and wiring plans and short circuits and blow outs and cut outs and so on and so forth then I am absolutely glad that I stick with the simple stuff with no wiring!
5 men for 8 weeks (2 evenings per week = total 240 man hours) and the layout is still not sorted! wacko.gif
I want to play trains and have instant gratification not faff about with all the spagetti underneath.
B.Well, if WMRC are as good with wiring & electrics as they are with returning phone calls, e-mails & snail mail, then I'm not surprised !

G.I guess I am the typical Hornby customer and do they know their customers!
Long may it continue! clap.gif clap.gif clap.gif
B.Believe me I really want the Hornby system to do well, but if it is "out on it's own" then it just may go the same way as Zero! - & there was agreat opportunity missed.

G.OK. From a DCCers perspective Hornby (and Bachmann?) customers may be fools, idiots, bufoons, representative of neanderthal man or whatever however at least we know how to have fun! tongue.gif[
B.When, exactly did I describe H & B customers as "fools, idiots, bufoons, representative of neanderthal man or whatever" ?

B.Sometimes I wonder exactly what your connection with Hornby is (or how many Hornby shares are in your family).

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Gary @ 23 Nov 2006, 19:40) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Again the DCCers are making assumptions that everybody who tries a budget digital console will want to upgrade to another system. Again with negative talk designed to put people off even trying DCC. I don't understand it. Some will upgrade. Most won't. But at least talk the opportunity to try DCC up!

I am very confident that the budget companies will introduce enhancements of their own systems in time so that is not an issue. Bachmann have since the launch of EZ-Command and no doubt Hornby will to (as they have done with Scalextric Digital). The fact is the Bachmann Sound Locomotives will work entirely under the instructions of the budget EZ-Command console as has been demonstrated by Bachmann. This will help to sell more budget digital consoles in the UK than anything else I would suggest.

Happy modelling
Gary

Gary - why don't you actually read the points put forward by myself & others - go away for a while & think about them instead of immediatly shooting back the people you seem to regard as "anti-budget".

I answered all of your comments in a recent post & put forward relavent comments based on actual conversations & you have completly ignored most of them chosing to answer only those that suit your arguments.

OK, fine you stick to your budget systems & I'll stick to my fully featured systems (Fleischmann Twin-Centre, Lenz LH100 & Gaugemaster Prodigy).

Until you properly consider other relavant comments I've had it with this thread.

You cannot p*** against the wind.