[Doug]

OK guys, please calm down. No flaming here.

Beerhunter, There has been quite a bit already said on this before you signed up. it is inevitable that this sort of reaction is given.

Neil, Beerhunter is new here and may not have read all that has been said. He also doesn't know you and you manner of dialogue.

 

[Dennis David]

Yes but Neil IS rude.

QUOTE Then why don't you behave like an engineer, gather some evidence and present it objectively?

I have enough trouble just trying to behave as an adult.

 

[Gwent rail]

QUOTE Yes but Neil is rude

That's rich coming from your side of the "pond" good buddy. Not that I think you are rude, just that I'm surprised you don't see it as normal.

Anyway, Neil isn't rude --- Well not really for a Aussie Haggis anyway.

 

[Gary]

Why is DCC always such an emotive subject?

More so than any other railway modelling topic.

We now know that Adrian Hall is an agent for TCS and he is circulating an email about Hornby Digital.

And if a Hornby rep says that a Hornby decoder can be used with all Hornby locos then what is wrong with saying that? It is all down to the question asked.

I sense that there are a few people out there worried about the prospect of Hornby and Bachmann offering value for money digital systems to the Brits. Its about time the Brits had digital systems offered at American prices.

And as for those on a steep DCC learning curve surely the best thing to do is to purchase a budget Hornby or Bachmann digital system and try DCC for yourself! The only people who are anti Hornby and Bachmann as I can see haven't yet used the system!

I have now used both and for small layouts they work fine. And for small layouts budget systems are all you are likely to need.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[dwb]

>And as for those on a steep DCC learning curve surely the best thing to do is to purchase a budget Hornby or
Bachmann digital system and try DCC for yourself!

It all depends on where you think DCC might take you. If you can't imagine having more than say 50 locos and you will only run Hornby then go ahead buy the Hornby. The company is making money and so will remain in business for years to come.

If your way ahead is not so clear and you fancy a Bachmann or two, I would suggest waiting a couple months until the dust has settled and we find out exactly what the Hornby system can and can't do.

As for Bachmann, I don't recall reading of any compatibility problems with their digital system, but then they bought in the technology from Lenz rather than giving a design company the spec and a load of dosh. So testing the water with Bachmann is a more conservative route.

David

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE Yes but Neil IS rude.

Just honest and blunt about it. Thanks for your support there Dennis.

QUOTE The only people who are anti Hornby and Bachmann as I can see haven't yet used the system!
That may well be because it patently doesn't meet their requirements. Why waste your time with it when you know from it's spec's that it wont do what you need it to?

We have been all over this before in the hornby digital thread. I'm not anti, I'm indifferent but when some Hornbyists get carried away and start severly overstating it's case some reality has to be brought into check. Remember it's a budget system for beginners. Once you see what systems like Ecos and those of Zimo, Digitrax etc can do you will realise that.

QUOTE Neil, Beerhunter is new here and may not have read all that has been said. He also doesn't know you and you manner of dialogue.

Sorry Doug, the misunderstanding originated from the impression he was giving initially, which was that he was an expert.

 

[Gary]

QUOTE That may well be because it patently doesn't meet their requirements. Why waste your time with it when you know from it's spec's that it wont do what you need it to?

But that is entirely the point. It seems absolutely wrong to trumpet something that meets much higher requirements which may be patently well beyond the requirements of the average UK modeller. And an absolute waste of money.

How about somebody preparing a "standard" tick chart which helps railway modellers quantify their DCC needs with example questions such as:-

How many locos are you going to run at a time?

How many locos will you be putting decoders in?

Are you going to run locomotives with sound?

Are you going to run locomotives with lights?

Are you going to operate points and how many?

Are you going to operate signals and how many?

Will you require a hand held control unit?

...and so on.

Would those who trumpet systems that meet these higher requirements like to indicate exactly the scale of their operations so that we can all judge what the position is when looking at possibly rather more modest plans?

Its another one of those reality checks that we sometimes need.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[dwb]

>Would those who trumpet systems that meet these higher requirements like to indicate exactly the scale of their operations so that we can all judge what the position is when looking at possibly rather more modest plans?

That's a fair question, but can we put it in another thread please?

David

 

[Gwent rail]

QUOTE And if a Hornby rep says that a Hornby decoder can be used with all Hornby locos then what is wrong with that/ It is all down to the question asked

Quite, Gary and my point exactly.
Problem is, we were discussing if the Hornby system was suitable for my needs, I had told him that I had some old Hornby locos, as well as some new ones and that I had a few Bachmann items as well.
My question therefore was, by definition, "can I use your system for all of these?".

Although I was told no lies, I certainly was not told the whole truth and I resent that.

Unless Bachmann is a dramatic improvement, the truth is I will probably end up waiting until I can justify spending the extra money for a more advanced system like Lentz, Digitrax or Ecos and so make my choice "future proof".

 

[neil_s_wood]

QUOTE It seems absolutely wrong to trumpet something that meets much higher requirements which may be patently well beyond the requirements of the average UK modeller. And an absolute waste of money.

How about somebody preparing a "standard" tick chart which helps railway modellers quantify their DCC needs with example questions How can you possibly say that it is absolutely wrong to advocate a better system?

Who's to say that it is well beyond the requirements of the average UK modeller? If someone wants to better themselves with a better spec system and move out of the dark ages of model rail then good on them. Are you aware of the features some of these systems offer?

Some off them are very appropriate for the UK modeller like the shuttle feature which is ideal for terminus to terminus layouts.

Whether it is an absolute waste of money is completely subjective. Many people would think that buying an NMRA incompatible begginer set would be a waste of money as it will soon be dumped for something that can perform, expand and is compatible with other sets. It all comes down to your individual requirements.

The tick chart you are looking for by the way is at the top of the page (DCC Systems chart) and has been for some time.

QUOTE Unless Bachmann is a dramatic improvement, the truth is I will probably end up waiting until I can justify spending the extra money for a more advanced system like Lentz, Digitrax or Ecos and so make my choice "future proof". Wise choice. It's a big investment. You want to make the right one.

 

[Graham Plowman]

QUOTE (Gary @ 21 Nov 2006, 03:35) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>...
I sense that there are a few people out there worried about the prospect of Hornby and Bachmann offering value for money digital systems to the Brits. Its about time the Brits had digital systems offered at American prices.
...
Happy modelling
Gary

It is also about time Brits had digital systems built to standards which are the accepted norm in the rest of the world instead of persisting with resurecting 10-year out of date technology (and I say that as an expat-Brit). I just can't believe that brand new digital systems are being introduced onto the market which only support two digit addressing!

Since American systems are all much more advanced 4 digit systems, there is no comparison between them and the so called 'value for money' products being offered in the UK.
If a UK manufacturer could offer US-level products at the current UK 'value for money' prices, then they would surely have a competitive advantage, but that is not the case. We are not comparing like with like.

Two digit systems have long since been consigned to the anals of history on the international scene for the very same reasons that people are now begining to discover in the UK. Technology has long since moved on...but the UK hasn't.

Yes, these new products do work, but they are bottom of the market products which lack in functionality and which people quickly grow out of once they find out what DCC can do for them. The big problem is that by the time people discover this, it is too late and major alterations (decoder replacements) are required in order to upgrade to proper 4 digit DCC systems.

The DCC 'toe-dipping' going on in the UK is a false economy. Why buy bottom of the range kit when you can get decent kit in the first place and save all the hassle of mucking around with two digits and having upgrade problems when going over to a proper system ?

It is the same old story in the UK with this hobby - people won't spend a cent. Pay nothing, get nothing and manufacturers will continue to give you nothing.

Personally, I went for the Lenz 100. Not cheap, but I haven't regretted it because it does everything one might expect from these systems today.

My two cent's worth...

Graham Plowman

 

[Peter_Harvey]

One thing that we have to remember is that Hornby & Bachmann for that are both toy manufacturer's who would much rather sell 5/6 train sets for Jimy and Jonny's Christmas present or birthday 2/4 single locos they work on the principal that get them while there don't know what they are buying then we have them, its like buying a car you take it to a Ford dealer for service, if its a Vauxhall you take it to them for service.
If you are a serious modeller then you go for a decent system that you can mould to give you what you want,
I'm waiting to see what the New Bachmann gives but I will probably buy a system at Warley if one of the manufacturer can convince me that there product will give me what I want.

You have to remember that Bachmann and Hornby probably only pay £15-£20 pounds cost for each of there DCC units + 10% then a percentage for shipping and one for marketing and then they add a margin of say 30% on to that to give them a profit and then the shops add there margin on to cover there over heads, then you get the price that we see in the shops and all this is based on how many that they can sell in a year.

If your in this hobby seriously (and I consider most of the people that use this forum to be in this category) you should never consider a base entry level DCC system unless it gives you something that you cant get any where else.

Pete

 

[Doug]

What both Graham and Pete say above is true - each though representing the arguments looked at from either end of the spectrum.

As a DCC user, it seems crazy to introduce 'under-spec' devices, but as an affordable Christmas gift, it gets DCC into the homes of the masses and gets the kids keen on DCC.

Remember that Hornby is a public company and therefore, to satisfy the marketplace it has to announce a couple of big developments each year. It has to be seen or perceived by investors at least to be leading the way. An entry level system now, a middle of the road system later and perhaps a top-spec system in a year or two. I'm sure they'll do it.

 

[Makemineadouble]

QUOTE Remember that Hornby is a public company and therefore, to satisfy the marketplace it has to announce a couple of big developments each year. It has to be seen or perceived by investors at least to be leading the way. An entry level system now, a middle of the road system later and perhaps a top-spec system in a year or two. I'm sure they'll do it.

This has to seen as a great opportunity lost. Similar to the launch of live steam. It's a cul-de sack, possibly taken by marketing people rather than folks with sound knowledge. What ever, if the Select it's up to it, there will be great gaps in the market for established companies to exploit. These opportunities don't come often.

 

[Gary]

QUOTE This has to seen as a great opportunity lost. Similar to the launch of live steam. It's a cul-de sack, possibly taken by marketing people rather than folks with sound knowledge. What ever, if the Select it's up to it, there will be great gaps in the market for established companies to exploit. These opportunities don't come often.

Now the Live Steam comment I do agree with. No USA outline Live Steam and no German Live Steam and given that Hornby have a world patent on this technology it seems odd that they have ignored the Americans and Germans who should be massive customers for this product. However they now have the distribution side sorted and the Lima aquisition to play with....

...maybe Walthers with be distributing Rivarossi Live Steam in 2007?

As for Hornby Digital there will be gaps in the market that will be exploited by others if Hornby have overlooked things. The same can be said for any digital product though.

Hornby have only just released their first digital product and so its early days. Its clearly something that adds to the Hornby portfolio of products. Bachmann seem to have done well with a very basic budget system.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Doug]

Here is a little graph showing the Hornby share price and product releases over the last few years. It helps put things in perspective. If there are any errors, please let me know.

 

[Gary]

That chart deserves its own topic.

Scalextric Digital was released 2 years ago and 2 years on it is now a world leading product. I am not entirely convinced by the competition even dare I say it the yet to be released Ninco product for a number of reasons. The Scalextric set up is extremely robust and now offers a very wide range of accessories which add significantly to the play value. You can now get 3 car Scalextric Digital sets at Argos for £125!

In 2 year time this will be the case with the Hornby Digital range of products. And whats the betting that by that time Hornby will be offering a train set with 3 digital trains in!

Frank Martin's first move when he took the reigns at Hornby was to negotiate the Harry Potter deal. That should be plonked on the chart at the very beginning as that was the deal that started the Hornby revival.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Brian Considine]

QUOTE (Gary @ 21 Nov 2006, 13:08) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>No USA outline Live Steam and no German Live Steam
Happy modelling
Gary

Sorry Gary - sometimes I think you suffer from the same problems as many of our American friends - they see nothing outside their own country. The Germans had live HO steam quite a few years before Hornby - I saw it at Nurberg about five years ago. One of the locos was a small 0-6-0 !

Somewhere I have some details of the company that produce them.

 

[Gary]

The only thing is the German locos cost around £2000 and are not able to be controlled from an independent controller. Clearly there is a market for the product even at £2000!

How would the Germans react to one offered at Hornby prices! (Germans =

)

That was the thinking behind my comment.

One issue with the UK is that no matter what those residing outside may believe we do live in a incredibly space restricted country and big DCC systems just are not going to sell ever in the sort of numbers needed to satisfy importers. Live Steam really does need a reasonable sized layout to get the best out of it especially if you hope to run more than one loco at a time. As far as space goes this country has had it!

Live Steam is fantastic in the right environment on a big layout and this is where the Americans, the Germans and the Australians come in as they have the space. Both for Live Steam and BIG DCC projects.

Happy modelling
Gary

 

[Gary]

Back to our TCS friend who started the ball rolling.

Has Adrian Hall actually programed a TCS decoder with a Select unit?

What he actually says in his email is that a TCS decoder when fitted to a Hornby loco was not read by a Select console. Has he tried to write to it with the Select console or is he attempting to read an address with the Select console that was already programmed into the decoder by another unit?

And in terms of the CV values and the Gaugemastwer unit it is not clear precisely how those values were written onto the Hornby decoder.

His email is not clear on this.

Happy modelling
Gary